Are we uncoachable?

[redIndianDevil]

I don't think LVG wanted to be in control of recruitment, he ended up having to be which was such a bad idea as he was out of top flight management for a while. He signed players he knew from years before or had impressed him at the WC but he is, without doubt, the coach who impressed his style on the team and cleared out a lot of average squad players. The tragedy of Evans returning now so many years after and the cycle repeating itself is almost poetic.

Now we are back where we were with a manager running recruitment because they can't get the players they ideally want i.e. an established striker, De Jong and seemingly no input from the scouting team apart from a desperation signing in Casemiro for absurd money. The sole positive I will say is the age profile of our transfers are a lot better and will, at least, retain sell on value versus the old fecks who left on frees/for peanuts. Every cloud and all that.

This is what is so hard for me to believe. Even good fans will have a good knowledge about different players of similar profile, it can't be so difficult for a paid scouting team to suggest targets. I get a feeling that managers get such an ego boost after getting our job that they think they know it all and override the scouting department unless it's really a big name or a high profile player. Of course our board loves to sign these past it trophy winners to get easy marketing.

LvG is such an outspoken guy and all, why they feck didn't he call out the management when he wasn't getting inputs from the scouting team. He was happy enough to go on a shopping spree of average players.

 

[redIndianDevil]

There is a core of players that have outlasted 3 managers. These players aren’t good enough and clearly cannot deal with the type of football the club wants to implement.

New signings are either injury prone, in terrible form or had off the field issues which means the core players that were expected to be squad players at best are now starters yet again.

Dalot, Maguire, Lindelof, Shaw, Wan Bissaka, McTominay, Rashford, Martial. All of these guys are not good enough and should not be here any more.

Why the feck did this manager agree or is in the process of agreeing new contracts for these average players? Dalot is such a train wreck, he is exactly the sort of player we should be steering clear off, plain average at everything he does. Give me a Rafael all day long.

 

[Gordon Godot]

Why the feck did this manager agree or is in the process of agreeing new contracts for these average players? Dalot is such a train wreck, he is exactly the sort of player we should be steering clear off, plain average at everything he does. Give me a Rafael all day long.

The decisions on player contracts are taken at the level of Arnold, some of this is balance sheet related. The club is in chaos.

 

[Abraxas]

It's not easy to coach us for a variety of reasons.

A lot of factors seem to come together to create a perfect storm, so much so it feels like a long running curse. But it's not of course, it's inept senior leadership at the club.

But from a coaching perspective I think the difficulty is we've constantly turned over squads with randomness and manager say so. It's created a lot of imbalance and conflicting styles of player.

There's also a lack of quality, which ultimately the manager is partly responsible for within his own signings and the club takes culpability for allowing it. If you have a lack of individual ability it's very hard to coach ideals into a team with big expectations. This isn't Brighton, the players feel the pressure of the shirt so when people identify smaller clubs that are excelling and appear better coached, it's relative to their standing. I think the coaches would walk through the door here and encounter many of the revolving issues. It's just a completely different ballgame and that's why managers keep trying with no apparent success. We need a big turning point within the club to address that.

 

[redIndianDevil]

The decisions on player contracts are taken at the level of Arnold, some of this is balance sheet related. The club is in chaos.

There is no chance Arnold takes those decisions on his own, he will definitely be asking the manager for inputs. EtH decided not to waste funds on a new RB as Dalot could leave on a free. Clearly an horrible decision on EtH part, I'd rather risk a season with one specialist RB all year instead of hamstringing the club another 4 years by extending the contract of a garbage player.

 

[devilish]

Why the feck did this manager agree or is in the process of agreeing new contracts for these average players? Dalot is such a train wreck, he is exactly the sort of player we should be steering clear off, plain average at everything he does. Give me a Rafael all day long.

Its a logistics problem. According to Woodward and Ole the club struggle to sign more then 4 players per season. That means that the club prefer to retain players rather then buy new ones

 

[tomaldinho1]

This is what is so hard for me to believe. Even good fans will have a good knowledge about different players of similar profile, it can't be so difficult for a paid scouting team to suggest targets. I get a feeling that managers get such an ego boost after getting our job that they think they know it all and override the scouting department unless it's really a big name or a high profile player. Of course our board loves to sign these past it trophy winners to get easy marketing.

LvG is such an outspoken guy and all, why they feck didn't he call out the management when he wasn't getting inputs from the scouting team. He was happy enough to go on a shopping spree of average players.

He did - was very vocal about the issue, as was Mou afterwards.

 

[GDaly95]

It's gone on for a while now where I've looked at our performances and thought 'what on earth do they even do in training'. Pundits have said it, this forum has said it. It precedes Ten Hag's arrival by quite a while.

I'm perplexed to be honest. Something deeper is the issue and I think there's a chance that no one at all, inside or outside of the club, knows how to fix it.

Generally I'd put it down to a lack of desire to be the best eminating from the top and the lack of investment and determination trickling down over the years to become an ingrained part of the culture throughout the entire club including the squad.

This isn't to absolve EtH, who I don't actually think is up to the job anyway.

 

[redIndianDevil]

He did - was very vocal about the issue, as was Mou afterwards.

LvG spoke nothing when he was actually in the job or when he was signing all those players. It helps no one that they all seem to talk after getting fired, they had no qualms about signing players for boatloads of money despite knowing they are not good enough to identify targets.

 

[tomaldinho1]

LvG spoke nothing when he was actually in the job or when he was signing all those players. It helps no one that they all seem to talk after getting fired, they had no qualms about signing players for boatloads of money despite knowing they are not good enough to identify targets.

He openly criticized pre season schedule, heavily critical of Carrington and got some changes there pushed through, we also know a number of players he wanted but didn't get. Obviously he's not coming out saying 'this is shit' every week as an employee but he addressed this stuff whilst employed.

 

[NZT-One]

How many shots we averaging now? 18 goals in premier league is embarrassing. LVG should never have been appointed but at least it was clear what he wanted the players to do

I think, we have to remember the matches under LVG a little better... Our possession levels were high, no doubt about it. But mainly because we recycled the ball between Smalling and Blind. There was no penetration at all and were no threat at all. Our opponents had no issue with us having the ball because of it. And we were already weak against counters. For LVGs system to work, he would have needed a talented individual to come up with something brilliant. Be that RVP or Robben. With us, it could have been Di Maria but that didn't work out. Same with Depay.

I think, there weren't many performances of the team, that were considered good under him. I remember a game against Spurs when he used Fellaini kind of like McTominay today.

He certainly made it clear what he wanted and that he valued possession. But on the other hand it isn't like we could really manage it against good opposition.

It's not easy to coach us for a variety of reasons.

A lot of factors seem to come together to create a perfect storm, so much so it feels like a long running curse. But it's not of course, it's inept senior leadership at the club.

But from a coaching perspective I think the difficulty is we've constantly turned over squads with randomness and manager say so. It's created a lot of imbalance and conflicting styles of player.

There's also a lack of quality, which ultimately the manager is partly responsible for within his own signings and the club takes culpability for allowing it. If you have a lack of individual ability it's very hard to coach ideals into a team with big expectations. This isn't Brighton, the players feel the pressure of the shirt so when people identify smaller clubs that are excelling and appear better coached, it's relative to their standing. I think the coaches would walk through the door here and encounter many of the revolving issues. It's just a completely different ballgame and that's why managers keep trying with no apparent success. We need a big turning point within the club to address that.

Well described, I agree.

---
Overall I disagree, we aren't uncoachable. What I think is, that the challenge is way bigger than many expected. From my perspective, ETH had to start at a very low level. Look at players like Rashford or McTominay. They never experienced playing in any organized way which could be considered a little more advanced. I think, the longer the players are at the club, the bigger is this effect. LVG started a turn but didn't get very far. And his doings were quickly undone by Mourinho who has fundamentally different principles. Mourinho is a good coach but you can't expect him to integrate a proactive approach. And then Ole came in (after the situation with Mou became really bad) and was pragmatic. Which was good at the time but it also showed, that "keep it tight and counter fast" isn't going to cut it anymore these days. Thats like 8 to 10 years of not updating the club in terms of collective principles. Obviously recruitment was also shit during the time but I think, this can be kept separated from the coaching part.

I hoped that ETHs effect would be bigger. More easy to recognize. But I think, he has some effect. We are playing out from the back decently. The number of high turnovers this season is an indicator that our press is getting more organized and therefor more productive. It looks so shitty these days, because we are in no-mans-land right now: we are going for the highturnovers but have nothing to show for it because our attackers are out of form or/and new to the league. But the press isn't always very useful because it isn't synched throughout the team. If the defenders do not push up (or when the attackers doing it in the wrong moments), it is fecking easy to overcome the press and obviously that is when we are easy to score against. Lets face it - whatever is said about the supposed good performances under Ole. Very often we played like Burnley played against us, be compact, overcome the press, counter fast into the space.

This will take time and even more so when the personnel is out because of injuries. I think, the claim for being more pragmatic is understandable. But until when do we want to delay the inevitable? ETH was pragmatic last year. It got us a CL place but nothing more. Do we want him to be pragmatic again, trying to go for 4th, maybe 5th? For what? He will then be replaced for not being able to make the next step. A certain level of suffering is inevitable in my eyes.

That being said - I do not defend ETH per se. His insistence of survival mode stuff like playing McTominay no matter what and play Rashford (and in parts Bruno) no matter their form isn't very progressive. I don't know, if he has to stabilize results to be safe in his job but it certainly feels like he is banking on the wrong guys to bail him out.

Recruitment has to be better. But I don't think, the teams level can only increase by adding and subtracting player material. We have to develop the team. Evolve. Update the OS. Become a place, where system players thrive.

 

[Abraxas]

I think, we have to remember the matches under LVG a little better... Our possession levels were high, no doubt about it. But mainly because we recycled the ball between Smalling and Blind. There was no penetration at all and were no threat at all. Our opponents had no issue with us having the ball because of it. And we were already weak against counters. For LVGs system to work, he would have needed a talented individual to come up with something brilliant. Be that RVP or Robben. With us, it could have been Di Maria but that didn't work out. Same with Depay.

I think, there weren't many performances of the team, that were considered good under him. I remember a game against Spurs when he used Fellaini kind of like McTominay today.

He certainly made it clear what he wanted and that he valued possession. But on the other hand it isn't like we could really manage it against good opposition.


Well described, I agree.

---
Overall I disagree, we aren't uncoachable. What I think is, that the challenge is way bigger than many expected. From my perspective, ETH had to start at a very low level. Look at players like Rashford or McTominay. They never experienced playing in any organized way which could be considered a little more advanced. I think, the longer the players are at the club, the bigger is this effect. LVG started a turn but didn't get very far. And his doings were quickly undone by Mourinho who has fundamentally different principles. Mourinho is a good coach but you can't expect him to integrate a proactive approach. And then Ole came in (after the situation with Mou became really bad) and was pragmatic. Which was good at the time but it also showed, that "keep it tight and counter fast" isn't going to cut it anymore these days. Thats like 8 to 10 years of not updating the club in terms of collective principles. Obviously recruitment was also shit during the time but I think, this can be kept separated from the coaching part.

I hoped that ETHs effect would be bigger. More easy to recognize. But I think, he has some effect. We are playing out from the back decently. The number of high turnovers this season is an indicator that our press is getting more organized and therefor more productive. It looks so shitty these days, because we are in no-mans-land right now: we are going for the highturnovers but have nothing to show for it because our attackers are out of form or/and new to the league. But the press isn't always very useful because it isn't synched throughout the team. If the defenders do not push up (or when the attackers doing it in the wrong moments), it is fecking easy to overcome the press and obviously that is when we are easy to score against. Lets face it - whatever is said about the supposed good performances under Ole. Very often we played like Burnley played against us, be compact, overcome the press, counter fast into the space.

This will take time and even more so when the personnel is out because of injuries. I think, the claim for being more pragmatic is understandable. But until when do we want to delay the inevitable? ETH was pragmatic last year. It got us a CL place but nothing more. Do we want him to be pragmatic again, trying to go for 4th, maybe 5th? For what? He will then be replaced for not being able to make the next step. A certain level of suffering is inevitable in my eyes.

That being said - I do not defend ETH per se. His insistence of survival mode stuff like playing McTominay no matter what and play Rashford (and in parts Bruno) no matter their form isn't very progressive. I don't know, if he has to stabilize results to be safe in his job but it certainly feels like he is banking on the wrong guys to bail him out.

Recruitment has to be better. But I don't think, the teams level can only increase by adding and subtracting player material. We have to develop the team. Evolve. Update the OS. Become a place, where system players thrive.

The issue is maybe that to have "collective principles" you obviously need a collaborative, intelligent and proactive leadership team that instill said principles from top to bottom by setting their agenda and installing people that can do similar. Then the manager becomes part of that rather than a key driver of recruitment and wider club direction. In fact at most clubs they're hired precisely based on how they adhere to the club vision rather than purely based on a CV or gut feeling.

I think that's the essence of why we bounce from manager to manager and they're all very different, from LVGs possession based positional football to the more pragmatic counterattacking styles of Ole and Mourinho. Then ETH comes in, probably trying to play a dynamic style and you have remnants of previous, failed squads. We simply don't have this kind of sporting direction coming from the top so it looks like a mess because it is a mess.

 

[redIndianDevil]

He openly criticized pre season schedule, heavily critical of Carrington and got some changes there pushed through, we also know a number of players he wanted but didn't get. Obviously he's not coming out saying 'this is shit' every week as an employee but he addressed this stuff whilst employed.

But nothing about lack of support for identifying transfer targets. Again he was demanding players by name instead of giving a profile and expecting the scouting team to pick up the task. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of clubs with worse training facilities than Carrington playing much better than us.

 

[tomaldinho1]

But nothing about lack of support for identifying transfer targets. Again he was demanding players by name instead of giving a profile and expecting the scouting team to pick up the task. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of clubs with worse training facilities than Carrington playing much better than us.

You’re shifting the goalposts a bit now. My point is he was critical of the club and then proved it.

 

[NZT-One]

The issue is maybe that to have "collective principles" you obviously need a collaborative, intelligent and proactive leadership team that instill said principles from top to bottom by setting their agenda and installing people that can do similar. Then the manager becomes part of that rather than a key driver of recruitment and wider club direction. In fact at most clubs they're hired precisely based on how they adhere to the club vision rather than purely based on a CV or gut feeling.

I think that's the essence of why we bounce from manager to manager and they're all very different, from LVGs possession based positional football to the more pragmatic counterattacking styles of Ole and Mourinho. Then ETH comes in, probably trying to play a dynamic style and you have remnants of previous, failed squads. We simply don't have this kind of sporting direction coming from the top so it looks like a mess because it is a mess.

Yeah definitely. This issue can be seen in several places. And I guess, the cure has to be applied at several places as well. We have to have a manager who is capable of doing what I described above. But for sure, you also need the higher ups a) able to see this issue as an actual problem and b) identify the right people to engage with it.

That is why I tend to stick to ETH for now. At least he knows the situation, he has knowledge about the players and the clubs capabilities. Bringing in another guy will reset all those things once again. ETH may very well not be the guy who finally turns the corner for us. A few warning signs are there. But I don't see anybody in the club being able to identify a manager who will tackle the challenges better. If that would be some chirurgical thing, I'd say alright, if you are confident if it'll work, go for it. But I think, it is more a situation of rolling the dice again. And I don't see anything positive coming out of that - the coaching challenges won't fade away just by changing the name on the managers door.

 

[Abraxas]

Yeah definitely. This issue can be seen in several places. And I guess, the cure has to be applied at several places as well. We have to have a manager who is capable of doing what I described above. But for sure, you also need the higher ups a) able to see this issue as an actual problem and b) identify the right people to engage with it.

That is why I tend to stick to ETH for now. At least he knows the situation, he has knowledge about the players and the clubs capabilities. Bringing in another guy will reset all those things once again. ETH may very well not be the guy who finally turns the corner for us. A few warning signs are there. But I don't see anybody in the club being able to identify a manager who will tackle the challenges better. If that would be some chirurgical thing, I'd say alright, if you are confident if it'll work, go for it. But I think, it is more a situation of rolling the dice again. And I don't see anything positive coming out of that - the coaching challenges won't fade away just by changing the name on the managers door.

Hard to say with Erik ten Hag because of the nature of the club that he has come into. The fact is, he has gone from one of the most promising managers in Europe known for winning and stylish football (at a level admittedly) to being seen as presiding over a disaster within the span of a season and a bit.

What the reality of his level is within that sequence of events is hard to determine both because of the way the club is run and also the level of football in Holland he came from. He could be anything from out of his depth to being completely mischaracterised by the way this club tends to drag down anything and everything from coaches and managers to individual players. Kieran McKenna went from unworthy to set up cones to leading a bunch of League One players to promotion and top of the Championship within a matter of months. It's probably something in the middle isn't it, if he was a genius level manager I'd expect to see better, but he was obviously a manager with great potential too.

Seems to me we may as well consider the managerial post when the new leadership is in situ and they can take stock of the whole structure. Throwing in a De Zerbi right now would be a complete own goal if he then becomes tarred with the Glazer brush and instead you could have given him a fresh project and a fair crack. So the only way I see it being logical is if we get a safe pair of hands (that are actually good, not a Ralf type) to give us half a chance at a top 4 finish.

 

[Blood Mage]

No team is uncoachable. Just look at what Dyche has done at Everton, Frank at Brentford or Silva at Fulham with much worse players than ours.

We've just hired six coaches who had no business being here, well apart from Mourinho until he went scorched earth on his own dressing room like always.

 

[Dec9003]

Nope, a better manager would have a more stable style of play and achieve better results.

 

[T00lsh3d]

I reckon EtH is a perfectly decent coach from a technical perspective but he doesn’t have the gravitas, man management skills & trophy haul to get his methods over to our gang of ego-first effort-second players

 

[Fortitude]

Seen this footage going viral with comparison to ETH Ajax, apparently as some kind of proof of lack of ability of the current squad.

In reality it's just a 25sec clip out of hours of training per day so absolutely pointless to overanalyse and it's proof of absolutely nothing.

On the more general question of the thread - I do think there is a major issue for the players who have been here under several managers. Every 2 years there is a change of ideas and style, takes time to adapt each time - another reason to stick with the manager despite poor results because I really can't be arsed to start at square one again.

Think you can see our training is a carbon copy of our match day game, watching McTominay, Amrabat and Antony trying to play one and two touch between themselves today was even worse than the training footage.

 

[sunama]

This is what is so hard for me to believe. Even good fans will have a good knowledge about different players of similar profile, it can't be so difficult for a paid scouting team to suggest targets. I get a feeling that managers get such an ego boost after getting our job that they think they know it all and override the scouting department unless it's really a big name or a high profile player. Of course our board loves to sign these past it trophy winners to get easy marketing.

LvG is such an outspoken guy and all, why they feck didn't he call out the management when he wasn't getting inputs from the scouting team. He was happy enough to go on a shopping spree of average players.

I think that our scouting team must be terrible at their jobs.
Even fans on this forum were making recommendations on the players to buy.
It's almost as if there isn't a scouting network and the manager just has to do his own scouting and come up with his own recommendations.
Even when we were offered the likes of Di Maria and Falcao, the scouting network was not involved.
Our biggest signings - Sancho, Pogba, Antony - the scouts weren't involved.
And for the lesser known players (where scouts usually have a role to play_ - none of them seem to work out.

I think the club is rotten from top to bottom and the only reason why we are competitive in the league is that we can buy the most expensive players and on natural ability/talent alone, we can win games.
In every match I see us play, there doesn't seem to be a style of play or system - we rely on individual brilliance to score goals.

 

[Gordon Godot]

I think that our scouting team must be terrible at their jobs.
Even fans on this forum were making recommendations on the players to buy.
It's almost as if there isn't a scouting network and the manager just has to do his own scouting and come up with his own recommendations.
Even when we were offered the likes of Di Maria and Falcao, the scouting network was not involved.
Our biggest signings - Sancho, Pogba, Antony - the scouts weren't involved.
And for the lesser known players (where scouts usually have a role to play_ - none of them seem to work out.

I think the club is rotten from top to bottom and the only reason why we are competitive in the league is that we can buy the most expensive players and on natural ability/talent alone, we can win games.
In every match I see us play, there doesn't seem to be a style of play or system - we rely on individual brilliance to score goals.

Mourinho did call out we had conflicting reports on same players from different scouts and system was a mess. The structure was a mess by the time Fergie left, and Woodward too inept to do anything. We got told lots of lies when Ole was in charge how system was overhauled, lots of data, in depth look at character etc. But record shows that was all lies, we are still seen as a joke and reactive by other clubs. Hierarchy caved into ETH as they were desperate to get him and keep him happy. ETH proved to be even worse judge of a player than Moyes. Only hope is Jim brings in some actual professionals.

 

[Zen86]

LVG didn’t impose a style, the players looked clueless on the pitch. He told them to retain the ball so they’d aimlessly knock it around the back line.

 

[Scottynaldinho]

I haven't seen any team before us that has absolutely no effect on the style of play with a change in coach.

At this club, it is the DNA football or nothing. LVG lost the Philosophy vs DNA game, and no one has tried anything but the DNA football since then. ETH did admit this to be the case when he said he'll never be able to make this team play like Ajax but is still trying and hoping.

 

[TheReligion]

It’s a daft thread considering Ten Hag has actually coached the team to play a certain way, even if it’s not been fully effective.

 

[Scottynaldinho]

It’s a daft thread considering Ten Hag has actually coached the team to play a certain way, even if it’s not been fully effective.

And what is that?

 

[TheReligion]

His philosophy was to try and make the most logical pass in the shortest possible time.

And what is that?

I mean if I have to explain it to you then we are already starting on the wrong foot.

Look it up. plenty posters, including myself, have gone in to detail on the system and its principles. There’s a lot of videos online about it.

If folk can’t see the difference between Ten Hag, Ole, Mourinho, LvG then that’s on them.

 

[Scottynaldinho]

I mean if I have to explain it to you then we are already starting on the wrong foot.

Look it up. plenty posters, including myself, have gone in to detail on the system and its principles. There’s a lot of videos online about it.

If folk can’t see the difference between Ten Hag, Ole, Mourinho, LvG then that’s on them.

That does not answer the question at all.

Give me an example of a game against a top 4 opposition where you've seen the difference between the Ole's and Ten Hag's systems.

 

[TheReligion]

That does not answer the question at all.

Give me an example of a game against a top 4 opposition where you've seen the difference between the Ole's and Ten Hag's systems.

Sorry but it’s not my fault you’re too lazy to look it up.

Now you’re adding caveats against specific teams.

The thread title is about the team being uncoachable which is ridiculous considering the various styles of play we’ve had over the past few years.

 

[TheReligion]

I voted no. I just don't see anything special. He's a decent footballer and that's about it.

You did post this in the Mainoo thread which tells me all I need to know tbh.

 

[Scottynaldinho]

You did post this in the Mainoo thread which tells me all I need to know tbh.

Not allowed to have an opinion?

I saw your tagline and it tells me all I need to know.

 

[TheReligion]

Not allowed to have an opinion?

I saw your tagline and it tells me all I need to know.

Of course you are. Even if it’s a silly one. Crack on.

 

[steve zizou]

LvG spoke nothing when he was actually in the job or when he was signing all those players. It helps no one that they all seem to talk after getting fired, they had no qualms about signing players for boatloads of money despite knowing they are not good enough to identify targets.

Ragnick did and some fans complained about washing our dirty linen in public. Till today some fans will tell you any average fan could have said what Ragnick was saying...

I haven't seen any team before us that has absolutely no effect on the style of play with a change in coach.

At this club, it is the DNA football or nothing. LVG lost the Philosophy vs DNA game, and no one has tried anything but the DNA football since then. ETH did admit this to be the case when he said he'll never be able to make this team play like Ajax but is still trying and hoping.

You make a good point and this is something I've been exploring in a wider organisational culture and philosophy context. I might summarise it in a whole thread at some point. Essentially there are 2 types of clubs: the dogmatic and pragmatic and whichever one you are dictates how you (the club: ownership, leadership, management, coaching, players, and fans) respond to change. 3 managers have now seemingly abandoned their clear philosophies to adopt/adapt to Man United's way. A way which at this stage is just a worse version of the "West Ham way".

 

[Stig]

If you allow yourself even 25 seconds of weakness, how can you claim to be great?

Hi I'm the CEO of a major global corporation. Would you be available for a 2 year contract to give motivational presentations to all our offices around the world?

 

[RedRocket08]

The takeaways at least for me from Mourinho's comments today about his time at United and also Matic's interview, was that the players have too much power at the club and it also confirmed a well established fact that there is no hierarchy at the club. If you hire X manager and his assessment is that a few players aren't going to cut it and need to be sold on, you should as a club support the manager (To the extent that your finances allow it) and not the players - the hierarchy should be players, manager, DOF and then the footballing executives of the club which should work with some degree of independence to the commercial division / board of the club. This doesn't mean we give EtH free reign on transfers, but that we make this hierarchy evident to the players and also the manager - Maybe the reason we're seeing a lot of ex-EtH players in the team is that he'd rather have a few personalities he trusts in a club that has given players too much power (Due to a lack of an established hierarchy).

Managers should outlast players in any well run club, and you shouldn't hire one if you don't value their opinion - It's quite apparent now why Sancho was booted from City, but the club supported the manager in that decision. I highly doubt that even Pep would have got that kind of support to boot players at United. If it means scrapping the likes of Martial, Rashford etc. early on when they were hyped up, because they are not in a manager's plans (Usually because they're not good enough), it is up to the hierarchy above to support the manager's decisions and not make their own (But also assert the fact that the manager will not have an unlimited budget, and will have to find replacements within financial means). So basically it goes something like: "OK you don't want Rashford and Martial, done, but we're only going to be able to give you 2 free transfers as replacements, are you willing to work with that + any new replacements will need to be greenlit by our DoF?" not "Oh you want Rashford and Martial out, but but.. Rashford's homegrown and has a lot of commercial appeal and he's scored X goals last season so we should keep him, so just figure out a way to work with him"

No player should be more powerful than a manager, and no manager should have more power than the footballing execs above him and the footballing people and commercial people need to have some degree of independence - Unfortunately something United have failed to understand for the last 10 years. SAF was a rare breed in that he was exec + manager but once he was gone, the exec at the club needed to change their structure to keep that aforementioned hierarchy, and they didn't do it.

So I wouldn't say we are uncoachable, but to be coached effectively these players do need to realise that their current manager's word is final until a new manager comes in that says otherwise, and that any change in management will be decided by the execs and not the players. Players should always be dispensable imo, which is why I think United could have really focused on a cheaper youth oriented team for a few years until a proper footballing hierarchy was in place, instead of overpaying for marquee signings who were too hard to get rid of once they became crap - Once they get that hierarchy in place, getting the big names in is less risky because the players then know whose word is final. Maybe Ratcliffe fixes this, you would hope.

 

[redIndianDevil]

I mean if I have to explain it to you then we are already starting on the wrong foot.



Look it up. plenty posters, including myself, have gone in to detail on the system and its principles. There’s a lot of videos online about it.



If folk can’t see the difference between Ten Hag, Ole, Mourinho, LvG then that’s on them.

There are plenty of videos talking rubbish online. Where does ETH's "system" goes when our team goes back to parking the bus and hoofing it long when defending a lead? This happens every time regardless of the quality of the opposition.

Against any decent pressing side(which is pretty much all teams we face these days), not one player has the confidence to trap the ball and turn around or instinctively pass it one touch to a teammate. Look at the Liverpool game, we could have countered them so many times if our players had the ability to string quick passes together. Every one just wanted to clear it aimlessly as soon as possible.

ETH specially bought our calamity keeper for the purpose of playing out from the back but he has gone back to hoofing it long. Why can't ETH coach our defensive line to not shit their pants when they are pressed? If Lewis Dunk can pass it out from the back why the feck Varane, Maguire and Shaw can't?

It's utter bullshit that ETH has a system in this season. He seems to make it up as he goes. Yes the injuries haven't helped but even IMO if we had the full strength squad we won't be better off from where we are now.

 

[DON’T PANIC ™]

Since SAF left, we've gone from having a senior squad of 3 or 4 top class strikers to none, and our goals have dried up, it's a mystery.

 

[Borys]

There are plenty of videos talking rubbish online. Where does ETH's "system" goes when our team goes back to parking the bus and hoofing it long when defending a lead? This happens every time regardless of the quality of the opposition.

Against any decent pressing side(which is pretty much all teams we face these days), not one player has the confidence to trap the ball and turn around or instinctively pass it one touch to a teammate. Look at the Liverpool game, we could have countered them so many times if our players had the ability to string quick passes together. Every one just wanted to clear it aimlessly as soon as possible.

ETH specially bought our calamity keeper for the purpose of playing out from the back but he has gone back to hoofing it long. Why can't ETH coach our defensive line to not shit their pants when they are pressed? If Lewis Dunk can pass it out from the back why the feck Varane, Maguire and Shaw can't?

It's utter bullshit that ETH has a system in this season. He seems to make it up as he goes. Yes the injuries haven't helped but even IMO if we had the full strength squad we won't be better off from where we are now.

This.
Do people really think the whole game plan relies on Martinez getting the ball and playing it forward? It'll certainly help, but any system that relies on single player to make it work is stupid and naive.

Once thing though, eth definitely has a system, it's just pretty shit so far. The fact he has to play it with Maguire, Evans and McTominay only masks how flawed his idea is.

 

[Gordon Godot]

This.
Do people really think the whole game plan relies on Martinez getting the ball and playing it forward? It'll certainly help, but any system that relies on single player to make it work is stupid and naive.

Once thing though, eth definitely has a system, it's just pretty shit so far. The fact he has to play it with Maguire, Evans and McTominay only masks how flawed his idea is.

I agree with this. There is no great plan unfolding. We opened season with Mount and were utterly open and could have lost 4-0 to Wolves. Its remained awful so far, just different players (again ETH cant decide if McT and Maguire should be sold or first names on the team sheet..). I am utterly baffled as to what he wants to do. Amrabat so unsuited to Premier league, as is Antony who poses no threat at all. Plus a forward who cant hold the ball means we have no way of relieving pressure.

 

[Borys]

I agree with this. There is no great plan unfolding. We opened season with Mount and were utterly open and could have lost 4-0 to Wolves. Its remained awful so far, just different players (again ETH cant decide if McT and Maguire should be sold or first names on the team sheet..). I am utterly baffled as to what he wants to do. Amrabat so unsuited to Premier league, as is Antony who poses no threat at all. Plus a forward who cant hold the ball means we have no way of relieving pressure.

ETH main issue is he's been building a team that is not for EPL. Hojlund, Antony, Amrabat just can't match this league physicality (in Hojlund case I'm just worried defenders on this level will be able to handle his physique, and he has nothing else). On top of that the system that is very, very difficult and RISKY to play if your team is not elite on the ball.

He needs to go back to basics imo and then think how can this be improved step by step. Rotate Casemiro and Mainoo, use Mount as actual b2b midfielder, stop shifting Bruno, make better use of fullbacks (Dalot RW?) if wingers are having a poor game, and at least increase the number of balls Hojlund can actually attack in the box. Would be nice to see some guys coming back from injuries soon.
And for feck sake play Varane if you're not going to build from the back anyway.