Are we uncoachable?

I do believe that this squad is a mish mash of players that weren't brought in for a specific style of play. Our recruitment lacked vision for a decade now, and it's highlighted by the fact that we keep hiring managers with completely different styles. Who follows Moyes with Van gaal, then Mourinho, then Ole, then ETH? Who plans like that?

What baffles me the most is that ETH didn't spend the money on players who could actually fit his style of play. So much money wasted.
 
Van Gaal ahould have gotten another year. We may have seen the butterfly by that time, and in the grand scheme of things - 3 years to reprogram a lifetime of ‘get it wide and cross it in’ is not unreasonable to ask.
 
I do think everyone is forgetting we have clearly decided to be route one, shit football as we try to navigate the injury crisis. I don't think what we're seeing right now is 'the plan', it's simply what we have to do to pick up points and it's awful but we're struggling through.
 
Perhaps there's too much pressure to succeed at United resulting in coaches becoming more pragmatic?
 
tomaldinho1 said:
I do think everyone is forgetting we have clearly decided to be route one, shit football as we try to navigate the injury crisis. I don't think what we're seeing right now is 'the plan', it's simply what we have to do to pick up points and it's awful but we're struggling through.
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But why, my dude? How does the way the team plays completely go out of the window when you have a few injuries? Aren’t squad players drilled to play the same football as the starting XI? How else will they slot in when needed?

Also our injury crisis is subsiding. Our attack yesterday (forwards and attacking midfielders) was complete with no absentees. Antony and Mount were left on the bench out of choice. The only midfielder missing was Casemiro and we had Amrabat to play at #6.

At the back Varane was left out by choice. We could have had Dalot-Varane-Maguire-Reguilon ahead of Onana. Aside from Shaw and Martinez that’s a pretty complete back line too.

So we were missing 3 players from an ideal line-up. Does that mean we have to field the starting XI we did and to start hoofing the ball? Will the football magically improve when you add those missing back in?
 
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Simon Stone wrote a good article yesterday or day before on the BBC Football website about Ralf Ragnick and his time at Utd basically saying the whole footballing structure needed revamping. Stones last sentence literally says Ragnick was right but Utd and Ten Hag didn't listen.
 
MadMike said:
But why, my dude? How does the way the team plays completely go out of the window when you have a few injuries? Aren’t squad players drilled to play the same football as the starting XI? How else will they slot in when needed?

Also our injury crisis is subsiding. Our attack yesterday (forwards and attacking midfielders) was complete with no absentees. Antony and Mount were left on the bench out of choice. The only midfielder missing was Casemiro and we had Amrabat to play at #6.

At the back Varane was left out by choice. We could have had Dalot-Varane-Maguire-Reguilon ahead of Onana. Aside from Shaw and Martinez that’s a pretty complete back line too.

So we were missing 3 players from an ideal line-up. Does that mean we have to field the starting XI we did and to start hoofing the ball? Will the football magically improve when you add those missing back in?
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Because Martinez/Shaw are out combined with Case as the DM. I'm certain Shaw would be playing LCB if only Martinez was out and we'd be trying to play out a lot more and keeping the ball. As it stands we have no real players able to take the ball/play on the turn at an elite level in the CBs/DM so it's safer to go route one.

I don't know why Reguillon didn't play, Lindelof never passes down the line and always comes back inside or hoofs the ball. Varane I have given up on, his pace has really dropped off now and I'd genuinely rather others start ahead of him, classy guy and an all time great but he looks like he runs without hamstrings these days.

I am hopeful we will see a team like this once the others are back. It has some flaws and some areas of average quality (DM, CB, RB in particular) but I think it could impose a possession style on most opponents in the league. Also assuming Bruno/Rashford find some form otherwise swap in Garnacho and Mebrij. Eriksen would be a great sub for the 8's.

-----------------------------Hojlund-----------------------
Rashford--------------------------------------Antony
------------- Mount -------------- Bruno --------------
---------------------------Amrabat -----------------------
Shaw-----Martinez-------Maguire------AWB
----------------------------Onana-------------------------
 
BluesJr said:
Fanbase too full of takes like this.
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Agreed. They deserve this route one shit on stick football. Neither has the patience to change things nor will accept boring football. If a new manager comes with new ideas and style of play but can’t implement it in the first year, he would be hounded out in no time.
 
The only way United players will be coached is if the coach is one of those that feels way bigger than the club. You'll hate to hear it but someone like Pep, who will happily drop/sell anyone if they step out of line. Look what he did to Cancelo, look how he happily dropped Foden.

But there's not many coaches like him so I can't see anything changing.
 
In the current crop a lot of them are uncoachable because they are past the stage where you can improve or change your general style.

At the very basic level we have terrible passers of the ball. Mctominay, Dalot, Antony, Rashford to an extend lose possession quite easily . Bruno is a good passer but har terrible composure so we end up losing the ball a lot more. We are also terrible crossers and rarely put in threatening crosses in. lastly our movement is atrocious and very static. Players want the ball at their feet and then try to beat 2-3 defenders with a near 100% failure rate.
 
Dirty Schwein said:
The only way United players will be coached is if the coach is one of those that feels way bigger than the club. You'll hate to hear it but someone like Pep, who will happily drop/sell anyone if they step out of line. Look what he did to Cancelo, look how he happily dropped Foden.

But there's not many coaches like him so I can't see anything changing.
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Ten hag has that say though, he has got his way with everything so far, ripping up de gea extension, buying Antony for 80 million, benching and getting rid of ronaldo, banning 75 million sancho from the first team, relegating Maguire to 4th choice cb, taking captaincy of him as well
 
Someone said:
I do believe that this squad is a mish mash of players that weren't brought in for a specific style of play. Our recruitment lacked vision for a decade now, and it's highlighted by the fact that we keep hiring managers with completely different styles. Who follows Moyes with Van gaal, then Mourinho, then Ole, then ETH? Who plans like that?

What baffles me the most is that ETH didn't spend the money on players who could actually fit his style of play. So much money wasted.
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ETH has brought in 12 of his own players. Surely that's a good foundation for his sort of style?
 
No. And all these managers had different teams, different players.

The issue is simple, we keep hiring the wrong managers and we've had no overarching plan for the long run. But the managers haven't shown a thing with some good players at their disposal. Look at the transformations at other clubs over the last 10 years and that says it all.
 
Dirty Schwein said:
The only way United players will be coached is if the coach is one of those that feels way bigger than the club. You'll hate to hear it but someone like Pep, who will happily drop/sell anyone if they step out of line. Look what he did to Cancelo, look how he happily dropped Foden.

But there's not many coaches like him so I can't see anything changing.
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As a poster below said, ETH has had free reign, actually he has had too much say for someone who has hardly achieved anything at United.
 
Someone said:
I do believe that this squad is a mish mash of players that weren't brought in for a specific style of play. Our recruitment lacked vision for a decade now, and it's highlighted by the fact that we keep hiring managers with completely different styles. Who follows Moyes with Van gaal, then Mourinho, then Ole, then ETH? Who plans like that?

What baffles me the most is that ETH didn't spend the money on players who could actually fit his style of play. So much money wasted.
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He signed players he worked with, of course they fit his style. I think he realised his style wasn't good enough to cut it in the PL. Teams were too good tactically to allow us to get away with what he wanted to do. He's just covering his own back when he says he's abandoned his philosophy, and that's because it isn't good enough. Now he's working on the fly trying to get something to stick.
 
Lee565 said:
Ten hag has that say though, he has got his way with everything so far, ripping up de gea extension, buying Antony for 80 million, benching and getting rid of ronaldo, banning 75 million sancho from the first team, relegating Maguire to 4th choice cb, taking captaincy of him as well
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united_99 said:
As a poster below said, ETH has had free reign, actually he has had too much say for someone who has hardly achieved anything at United.
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I mean with the likes of specifically Rashy and Bruno.

But you guys are right, he has done some things bigger than others that have managed United before.
 
pocco said:
He signed players he worked with, of course they fit his style. I think he realised his style wasn't good enough to cut it in the PL. Teams were too good tactically to allow us to get away with what he wanted to do. He's just covering his own back when he says he's abandoned his philosophy, and that's because it isn't good enough. Now he's working on the fly trying to get something to stick.
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Sadly but I think what you said above is true.
 
Dirty Schwein said:
I mean with the likes of specifically Rashy and Bruno.

But you guys are right, he has done some things bigger than others that have managed United before.
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There’s no indication at all that he is forced to play them. Last season he run both into the ground. You really believe the club hierarchy for example forced him to play them in a meaningless League Cup dead rubber game against Forest when the first leg was already easily won?
I find it very hard to believe that the club allowed him to get rid of Ronaldo, to get rid of some (promising) youth players, drop almost record signing Maguire, take the captaincy away from him, drop Sancho, sign Antony and Co., but at the same time they forced him to keep playing Bruno and Rashford and also to make Bruno captain.
If he is playing them it is 100% because he wants to play them.
 
clarkydaz said:
true, conceding 5s,6s and 7s to your biggest rivals is many things, but not dull
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LVG's United did some proper work against Liverpool and City too. Juanfield was still one of the most memorable post-Fergie performances, and we historically struggled there otherwise. The home match vs City that ended 4-2. I know these were before Klopp and Pep, but their squads were still strong.
 
united_99 said:
There’s no indication at all that he is forced to play them. Last season he run both into the ground. You really believe the club hierarchy for example forced him to play them in a meaningless League Cup dead rubber game against Forest when the first leg was already easily won?
I find it very hard to believe that the club allowed him to get rid of Ronaldo, to get rid of some (promising) youth players, drop almost record signing Maguire, take the captaincy away from him, drop Sancho, sign Antony and Co., but at the same time they forced him to keep playing Bruno and Rashford and also to make Bruno captain.
If he is playing them it is 100% because he wants to play them.
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He's not forced to play them, there's no alternative but these two will never improve under most managers. They need to be a part of a better team, not the driving force.
 
el3mel said:
There's nothing like that and Mourinho and Ole also implemented their style, even if it was bad one. Actually the only one who doesn't seem to have a club what he wants to do is Ten Hag.

Mourinho's United was all about pragmatism, defending in big numbers and grinding results while being efficient which is what he always played. Just became less successful in modern era.

Ole played a transition based team relying on counters and individual abilities of his forwards which what you would expect from him.

Both styles achieved moderate results for both.

So the point LVG is the only one who applied his style is just a myth. It's just that his style is more obvious for the eye since it's possession based.

Ten Hag's United is the most clueless version of United I have seen.
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Agreed.

Both Jose and LVG were able to implement their styles, the issue was our recruitment of players to suit this style was dreadful. LVG had zero clue how to make use of his new signings except Blind and Martial but was very good at working with existing members of the squad and young players.

Same with Jose, he created about 70% of what a Jose team would be. The main issue is he lacked the key world class players that would usually be the difference makers in his previous teams. Pogba, Lukaku, Mkhitaryan and Bailly didn’t materialise into the difference makers he needed so in effect you had a Mourinho team without Lampard/Sneijder, Drogba/Milito, Hazard/Ronaldo and Terry/Pepe.

Ten Hag is the one that seems like the truly clueless coach other than Moyes. LVG, Jose and Ole were largely consistent with how they attempted to play. I don’t know if we’re a team that passes out from the back or hoofs it because we do both. He wants to be the best transition team but signed Antony who is probably the worst counterattacking player we’ve had at the club. Wants us to press aggressively but has physically weak and slow players.

I think all the other managers can point to shit buying as a key contributor to why they didn’t make the next level but the players we signed were top ones they just flopped. With ETH he’s built a fundamentally flawed squad so he’s set himself up to fail because he couldn’t even get the basics of his plan right.
 
Alex B said:
I'd be for that. Martial is finished and I don't think we have any young strikers who can be considered for the first team. Having 2 up top would be great for Bruno. Would mean a narrow team and dependency on full backs but our wingers provide nothing generally anyway.
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Exactly! And he’s a proven goal scorer in the league, he’ll take a lot of weight off the team. Rashford gets a rest and him and Garnacho are super subs
 
You have to ask questions about the deep lying culture at the club as it’s become clear no matter who the manger is, no matter how much money we throw at squad building the result is always a mess.

So yeah I think at the moment the club culture makes us un coachable.
 
We're bloody difficult to coach when our preseasons are spent on planes and we've 3 days between matches for the majority of the season. We obviously can't do much about the match load, but the globetrotting has been a problem for every manager we've had in this period and goes back to the commercial focus at the top.
 
I think we just have way too many players who struggle with the basics. Like look how often our players constantly under hit or over hit basic passes to teammates.
 
Just get rid of the first team players who’ve been here for more than 2 seasons and just get a culture reset.

Play hungry players instead of overpaid divas. Football is supposed to entertain, watching us isn’t entertaining, it’s just infuriating that we can’t even do the basics like work hard.
 
Florida Man said:
LVG's United did some proper work against Liverpool and City too. Juanfield was still one of the most memorable post-Fergie performances, and we historically struggled there otherwise. The home match vs City that ended 4-2. I know these were before Klopp and Pep, but their squads were still strong.
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Mad how people pick out like two matches and say it was all coming together. The Van Gaal era was the true end of everything.
 
The rotten club culture, the players egos, their actual level, there are a lot of factors that make United more difficult to coach than most.

It's a nonsense thinking someone like De Zerbi could manage Man Utd. The players would be looking down on him from day dot. At Brighton players don't demand a manager who is bigger than they are. It's easy to put your stamp on things. At United the players seem to think they are so big their manager should be bigger. To refer back to the Rangnick era they don't want to have to Google their coach. :rolleyes:

We are basically Chelsea of the north. Our players demand a big coach, not a Graham Potter. Yet when they get a big coach, if he ruffles their feathers too much they down tools and get him sacked. We've all seen the briefings that the likes of Sancho are holding on cos they believe Ten Hag will get booted before he can sell them.

To coach this team you'd need to have a Ferguson level aura, where every player will acknowledge your leadership, together with a Ferguson level of authority, where every player knows you will outlast them.

Who can we find who can fit that bill, eh?
 
Some general observations in relation to the OP @Fortitude

- some players are 'uncoachable' in the sense that they are mavericks, blow hot and cold and cannot be trusted to follow/carry out instructions. These players obviously should not be considered top players in the modern era. I'm thinking here the likes of Allan Saint-Maxim, by way of example.

- some players are 'uncoachable' in the sense that they are one-dimensional and/or simply cannot play the way a given manager wants them to play. I'd use Rashford as an example here. He has raw attributes but he's never progressed as a footballer beyond a wide forward who can cut-in and shoot from the left-flanks. Various managers have tried and failed to make him effective on the right, as a CF or to coach him to press better etc...but he's really added nothing to his game since he first burst onto the scene as a teenager.

- some players are 'uncoachable' because they are too old and/or too used to a completely different style of football. For example, I question the underlying wisdom of ETH trying to coach new ideas into the likes of Evans, Maguire, Varane, Casemiro etc...at this stage in their careers.

See the Evans interview after the Burnley game, in which he stated something along the lines of 'its been difficult to learn new things at my age, being asked to pass the ball and run forward is completely unfamiliar to me as a CB!".

LvG was famously on-record many times as saying he much preferred to coach younger players, as they were more adaptable, eager to learn and hadn't picked up 'bad' habits.

- I note Bruno has been made this seasons scapegoat by the fans, but all I see if a player doing everything he can to do exactly what his manager is asking him to do. He's pressing, he's playing wide and he's getting the ball forward as quickly as possible. I think it's difficult to be critical of his ball retention etc...when he's clearly following instructions. So with regard 'is he coachable?' I'd say he is...but the coaching/instructions he's receiving aren't helping him.
 
fps said:
Mad how people pick out like two matches and say it was all coming together. The Van Gaal era was the true end of everything.
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To be fair we were somewhat on the right track, we just needed a goalscorer and the right manager to take over with a similar philosophy but we went the 180 route with mourinho and set us back again with the evolution of the side at the time, both rashford and martial were not helped with their development under mourinho
 
fps said:
Mad how people pick out like two matches and say it was all coming together. The Van Gaal era was the true end of everything.
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LVG had our squad doing well against our rivals and with really good football on top of it, mainly in his first season. The problem was against everyone else where we had little clue how to break through a parked bus.
 
Repeated failed experiments mean that the problem is not with the manager. It runs deeper.
 
My question about this group of players is who can the manager trust to not let him down or down tools? Ten Hag or whoever replaces him (beyond any new manager bounce from this group of charlatans)

I would have said Dalot before tonight but that first goal was shockingly bad and suggestive of someone who doesn’t give a shit

It’s a very very short list for me, two of whom are well past their prime

Maguire
Onana
Evans
Garnacho
Hojlund
Eriksen
Perhaps Reguilon and Amrabat
 
fps said:
Mad how people pick out like two matches and say it was all coming together. The Van Gaal era was the true end of everything.
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Van Gaal overachieved relative to the competition. We finished level with City in his second season playing kids while they had KDB, Silva, Aguero, Fernandinho and other seasoned veterans.

Of the post Ferguson managers there's no doubt in my mind he did the best job. We actually had the aura of a big club in our playing style unlike the defeatist mentality that was instilled by Mourinho and Ole. Unfortunately he fumbled the signings in his second year, mainly his fault but it doesnt mean that he didn't do well with the squad that it ended up being.

1 top 4 finish, 1 point off top 4 with a worser squad and a FA Cup in two years is not bad at all. He deserved another year.
 
Watch the players win this round, ETH will get the boot and Rashy will get his mate Sancho back into the squad.
 
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