Are Saudi Arabia taking over world sport?

I know it's probably a dumb question, but there is some real money at play here from the PIF - aren't there better things to spend this on in Saudi? Like, healthcare etc?

It really is just a few rich guys buying things they like imo. I don't actually think it's as much about 4d geopolitical chess as it is about boys and toys.
 
RedPed said:
To this day, nobody has come up with a definitive explanation of what sports washing really is. Are people really that naive to hold someone in high esteem just because s/he throws enough money at something. 'Sports washing', whatever the feck that is, only works if suckers allow themselves to be duped by it. You can't blame the instigators really.

You can't bitch and whine about it whilst Sky has it's PPV boxing events, Saudi Grand Prix, LIV tournaments and the like front and centre. Trump nearly broke America yet people are happy to give him another 4 years. That shit happens all over the world.
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Of course they have.

By buying up various high profile investments they turn the focus away from the undesirable actions they're involved in. Instead of being the evil dictatorship half a world away they are the friendly face of the nation's favourite sport. It legitimatises them. Like Red Bull putting their logo on any surface they can find, it's about their name being ubiquitous and always associated with a particular image.

The Western public are no longer outraged when our government do business with them, the way they would be if we started selling our jets to, say, North Korea. Then, when the oil runs out they have enough interests elsewhere to stay relevant, and no George Bush type can have a pop at them because they control too many of our favourite things.
 
11101 said:
Of course they have.

By buying up various high profile investments they turn the focus away from the undesirable actions they're involved in. Instead of being the evil dictatorship half a world away they are the friendly face of the nation's favourite sport. It legitimatises them. Like Red Bull putting their logo on any surface they can find, it's about their name being ubiquitous and always associated with a particular image.

The Western public are no longer outraged when our government do business with them, the way they would be if we started selling our jets to, say, North Korea. Then, when the oil runs out they have enough interests elsewhere to stay relevant, and no George Bush type can have a pop at them because they control too many of our favourite things.
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He has literally demonstrated how it works in his post stating that it doesn't work :lol:
 
Beachryan said:
I know it's probably a dumb question, but there is some real money at play here from the PIF - aren't there better things to spend this on in Saudi? Like, healthcare etc?

It really is just a few rich guys buying things they like imo. I don't actually think it's as much about 4d geopolitical chess as it is about boys and toys.
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I think it can be both. Rich guys being ostentatious is always about status. And sportswashing is also all about enhancing their status. The fact it also enhances the status of their country/region presumably helps when it comes to using state coffers to bankroll their penis extensions.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Again, the answers you seek are within your own post. Your last paragraph describes exactly what they are doing. They do a lot of terrible things so it’s obviously in their interest to become closely associated with something which is perceived in a much more positive way. Even if only when it comes to the billionaires/heads of state they want to impress with their gratuitous spending. I just think it mad the way you refuse to accept that these people might actually care about how they are perceived. Just look as the rest of the richest men on earth. They’re all exquisitely thin skinned and needy in terms of how they’re perceived.
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That doesn't make sense.

If this was Iran or North Korea, I would buy that argument. Pariah on the world stage, let's buy Arsenal and maybe some PMs representing North London could help us lift some sanctions since they love Arsenal so much they are willing to look the other way...

We're talking about Saudi Arabia. Darling of the western world. Despite all the evil shit they do. They buy weapons, they attract tourists and pilgrims, they buy valuable real estate in Kensington and Manhattan and Vancouver, they spend their money in Harrods and co... They have the backing of the western world against Yemen and Iran and Hezbollah and... They are already in. I repeat, they are already in the door, sitting down. They are already legitimized by democratic governments and parastatals and institutions on both sides of the pond.

(This to a lesser extent applies to Qatar and the UAE).

So again, I'm still honestly struggling with the concept that such a winner in terms of influence already, would feel the need to buy a relatively negligible amount of influence (from who, and for what precisely) by getting into sport and buying clubs/golf leagues/F1 hosting rights.

Plus, I would even argue that the amount of negative attention they have received, has actually increased since they've started dipping their toes into sport. How many people cared about Khashoggi or the kafala system prior to UAE buying City or Sauds buying Newcastle? Kim Jong Un just launched his 532nd missile, no one gives a feck. Let him make the mistake of walking into Stamford Bridge...

But I think the fact that they are state actors is enough to say, you don't want owners with that amount of soft and hard influence in football or other sports.
 
11101 said:
Of course they have.

By buying up various high profile investments they turn the focus away from the undesirable actions they're involved in. Instead of being the evil dictatorship half a world away they are the friendly face of the nation's favourite sport. It legitimatises them. Like Red Bull putting their logo on any surface they can find, it's about their name being ubiquitous and always associated with a particular image.

The Western public are no longer outraged when our government do business with them, the way they would be if we started selling our jets to, say, North Korea. Then, when the oil runs out they have enough interests elsewhere to stay relevant, and no George Bush type can have a pop at them because they control too many of our favourite things.
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:wenger:

1. More focus has been placed on their undesirable actions, not less. This thread is 1 example. Reddit. The press. We have a United States senator on record (someone who is on the Armed Services committee) pointing out LIV's hypocrisy with regards to Saudi Arabia's involvement in 9/11 (something our country completely ignored, mind, going on goose chases in Iraq instead). PMs spoke after Newcastle's purchase by Saudi Arabia. George Bush should have become a minority stakeholder in the Cowboys, that would have saved him years of grief over Iraq and Hurricane Katrina...

2. Yeah the Western public have never been outraged at us buying oils or selling weapons to Saudi Arabia or UAE. We have military bases and fleets in that region ffs, I do not ever recall a moment of substantial western outrage at anything in that region. Bar the killing of Khashoggi. And IIRC that was long before Newcastle. Yemen war? Kafala system? Silence.

This is why there hasn't been a definition of sportswashing that has held up to serious scrutiny. The effects it says happen as a result, don't actually happen. Rather, it's the opposite. Someone brought Putin as an example, ignoring the fact that from Yeltsin stepping down until Ukraine (not Crimea, mind), the attitude of the West towards Putin has been more embracing than confrontational, and to try and link Sochi and the WC to his emboldenment to attack Ukraine, instead of everything else (Chechen wars, Georgia, Crimea, saber rattling with gas...) is a massive fuvking stretch
 
Watched the episode of Parks & Recreation where the Venezuelan delegation visit and I'm now convinced part of the reason they've been interested in a club (and city) like Newcastle is so they can go "look how we've turned around this shithole club and city when their own government couldn't".
 
adexkola said:
Why thank you for tagging me in good sir

2 plausible reasons for them throwing money at sports:

1. Actual financial returns? Maybe McKinsey have these investments as having positive ROI? Improbable to me, but McKinsey will actually tell you what you want to hear, inclusive of spreadsheets, so there's that.
2. Because people with lots of money buy lots of stuff to stunt. Yachts, palaces, cars, shopping sprees, clubs, players... show offs

1 implausible reason for them throwing money at sports:

1. To improve their reputation, or as the "experts" call it, "sportswashing" their reputation. As if they, having the Western world bent over due to their oil and geopolitical positioning, give a feck about their reputation.
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The plausible reason is the last one.

They are not making money from it. They buy stuff because they can and because they want to be part of the western world, they want to improve their reputation.
 
NLunited said:
The plausible reason is the last one.

They are not making money from it. They buy stuff because they can and because they want to be part of the western world, they want to improve their reputation.
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They are, already. And have been for a good while now

And assuming they aren't, the fecking Saudi League is not getting them over that hump
 
Conor said:
He has literally demonstrated how it works in his post stating that it doesn't work :lol:
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If you're stupid enough to be taken in by a despotic regime just because they throw money at a sports event, then more fool you. I don't blame Saudi Arabia for that. I commend them for being able to pull it off. My opinion of Putin didn't change or soften just because of the Russia World Cup. He's always been a devious prat.

How laying on a golf tournament turns a killer into Mr. Congeniality is some impressive feat. No wonder everyone is trying it.

Sportswashing only works if people are stupid enough to let it.
 
RedPed said:
If you're stupid enough to be taken in by a despotic regime just because they throw money at a sports event, then more fool you. I don't blame Saudi Arabia for that. I commend them for being able to pull it off. My opinion of Putin didn't change or soften just because of the Russia World Cup. He's always been a devious prat.

How laying on a golf tournament turns a killer into Mr. Congeniality is some impressive feat. No wonder everyone is trying it.

Sportswashing only works if people are stupid enough to let it.
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You're diluting the public knowledge of yourself and your country with positive information, essentially burying the negative information that is already out there, to some extent. Most of the world are idiots, that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
 
Conor said:
You're diluting the public knowledge of yourself and your country with positive information, essentially burying the negative information that is already out there, to some extent. Most of the world are idiots, that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
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Well then there's nothing to complain about then is there?
 
adexkola said:
:wenger:

1. More focus has been placed on their undesirable actions, not less. This thread is 1 example. Reddit. The press. We have a United States senator on record (someone who is on the Armed Services committee) pointing out LIV's hypocrisy with regards to Saudi Arabia's involvement in 9/11 (something our country completely ignored, mind, going on goose chases in Iraq instead). PMs spoke after Newcastle's purchase by Saudi Arabia. George Bush should have become a minority stakeholder in the Cowboys, that would have saved him years of grief over Iraq and Hurricane Katrina...

2. Yeah the Western public have never been outraged at us buying oils or selling weapons to Saudi Arabia or UAE. We have military bases and fleets in that region ffs, I do not ever recall a moment of substantial western outrage at anything in that region. Bar the killing of Khashoggi. And IIRC that was long before Newcastle. Yemen war? Kafala system? Silence.

This is why there hasn't been a definition of sportswashing that has held up to serious scrutiny. The effects it says happen as a result, don't actually happen. Rather, it's the opposite. Someone brought Putin as an example, ignoring the fact that from Yeltsin stepping down until Ukraine (not Crimea, mind), the attitude of the West towards Putin has been more embracing than confrontational, and to try and link Sochi and the WC to his emboldenment to attack Ukraine, instead of everything else (Chechen wars, Georgia, Crimea, saber rattling with gas...) is a massive fuvking stretch
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More focus is on all their actions. People are talking about them and they are relevant. Instead of 50% of the coverage being criticism, over time it becomes 20%, then 10%, then nothing. That's what sportswashing is.

If you want to see it its right in front of you. 30 years ago Saudi Arabia was a nothing country in the desert. Today they are on the front page of every news station in the Western World. In 10 years they will still be there, but the footnote about human rights violations will be gone. They have bought themselves a seat at the table.
 
Is there an exhausted list of everything the Saudis have the hand in?
 
They allegedly have been funding terrorism and murdering journalidts.

”Nobody is perfect. We are trying to be better allies”

 
11101 said:
More focus is on all their actions. People are talking about them and they are relevant. Instead of 50% of the coverage being criticism, over time it becomes 20%, then 10%, then nothing. That's what sportswashing is.

If you want to see it its right in front of you. 30 years ago Saudi Arabia was a nothing country in the desert. Today they are on the front page of every news station in the Western World. In 10 years they will still be there, but the footnote about human rights violations will be gone. They have bought themselves a seat at the table.
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There is no country on earth today for which their significant human rights violations are a footnote or erased when speaking about them.

Not even Western countries have this luxury. Buying Newcastle will make criticism of Saudi Arabia go away (in 10 years, mind, how convenient) completely?
 
adexkola said:
There is no country on earth today for which their significant human rights violations are a footnote or erased when speaking about them.

Not even Western countries have this luxury. Buying Newcastle will make criticism of Saudi Arabia go away (in 10 years, mind, how convenient) completely?
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You do love talking in absolutes dont you? Of course there will be somebody, somewhere who will criticise them in 10 years. Just like somebody somewhere will be criticising the UK for its past. But nobody outside of The Guardian office will give a feck. That's the aim of sportswashing.
 
adexkola said:
There is no country on earth today for which their significant human rights violations are a footnote or erased when speaking about them.

Not even Western countries have this luxury. Buying Newcastle will make criticism of Saudi Arabia go away (in 10 years, mind, how convenient) completely?
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The UAE are a prime example. A long list of human rights abuses and manipulation in ME conflicts, and yet they’re more popularly known for luxury hotels, entertainment, and are increasingly synonymous with football and sport.

These countries have enormous wealth and are pouring it into a diverse range of markets. Buying up sport, which is essentially what they’re doing, is a ploy to generate new future revenue streams, buy increased influence, and improve their image. And the latter two are basically to support the first. To suggest that sports washing isn’t a concept is just bizarre; putting your name on popular social institutions has been long proven to be very effective.
 
Does anyone know what’s happening with them?

Their clubs are signing or looking to sign lots of top PL players this summer. Got Ronaldo in January

Why have they waited until now to start doing this?

Also if it’s successful, Newcastle should be worried because you’d assume they’d ideally rather focus their big money on their own league
 
LawCharltonBest said:
Does anyone know what’s happening with them?

Their clubs are signing or looking to sign lots of top PL players this summer. Got Ronaldo in January

Why have they waited until now to start doing this?

Also if it’s successful, Newcastle should be worried because you’d assume they’d ideally rather focus their big money on their own league
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I imagine they have enough money to go around.

Stories about Saudi Arabia and football are naturally getting a lot of coverage the last few weeks. A strange thing I've noticed is under almost every article there will be at least one comment talking about how Saudi Arabia is a football mad country (which may be true).

Though I remember seeing the same regularly said about Qatar yet going by the attendance figures of Qatar matches at the World Cup and stadiums looking half empty after half time it didn't seem to be the case.
 
they are giving any old has-been a million a week and people still believe this isn't sports-washing

the clubs wage bills are going to be bigger than United and City, with no big crowds and no global market to sell too

but yeah, they just love football or something
 
Port Vale Devil said:
As crazy as it sounds Saudi Arabia are building the facilities to host the Winter Olympic Games.

Reports they are considering a more lucrative rival to crickets IPL.

https://sg.news.yahoo.com/sports-pa...I1Zc3cx1qQaTTYDaQE2L5KLItTyy7jrAF3w3ysH1wZSQr
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This is the one thing that won't work unless India is on board. No indian players = they won't survive.. and more money won't help as the indian fans will literally send death threats to the players if they quit the IPL..
 
Tarrou said:
they are giving any old has-been a million a week and people still believe this isn't sports-washing

the clubs wage bills are going to be bigger than United and City, with no big crowds and no global market to sell too

but yeah, they just love football or something
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You don't think Sky/BT and other big broadcasters will be all over the tv rights if they keep signing these players?
 
Samid said:
You don't think Sky/BT and other big broadcasters will be all over the tv rights if they keep signing these players?
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I am sure the games will be televised but hardly anyone gives a shit so it won't be lucrative
 
City's owners wouldn't be delighted with that you'd imagine.
 
TwoSheds said:
City's owners wouldn't be delighted with that you'd imagine.
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Personally I think this is the new "Financial Doping" and all part of the plan. They are offering huge sums to older players on relatively short contracts. It doesn't add up. If they were just offering cash to the players I'd not be suspicious, but the sums being sent to Chelsea and others with Saudi Capital backing is concerning. I think they are trying to inflate the market because they want to maintain dominance. These huge sums of money flying from one Saudi's pocket to another Saudi pocket is more dodgy accountancy to get round FFP legislation.
 
buchansleftleg said:
Personally I think this is the new "Financial Doping" and all part of the plan. They are offering huge sums to older players on relatively short contracts. It doesn't add up. If they were just offering cash to the players I'd not be suspicious, but the sums being sent to Chelsea and others with Saudi Capital backing is concerning. I think they are trying to inflate the market because they want to maintain dominance. These huge sums of money flying from one Saudi's pocket to another Saudi pocket is more dodgy accountancy to get round FFP legislation.
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But City's owners aren't Saudi and they are in a good financial position in theory. I can't imagine they'll be pleased at losing one of their best players.
 
TwoSheds said:
Crazy. They are going for the clean sweep. F1, boxing, tennis, golf, football, potentially cricket.
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Yup this year already they've sponsored the IPL via Saudi Aramco. Expecting more to happen in the years ahead.
 
I suspect in the next couple of years, before the end of this decade, they will start a successful Super League. As they’ve already managed to force the PGA into submission with LIV, it only takes a bag full of money aimed at the biggest names of the target sport. It’ll just take a few of the biggest clubs to sign a billion or multi-billion dollar contract to participate and just like that, UEFA and FIFA are vulnerable and will need to consider negotiations or be outbought by Saudi Arabia.
 
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