I pin that on the lack of playmakers in our side. For a large part of the season Bruno has been our only playmaker, if he's having a bad game then we're screwed. Last season Bruno, Shaw, Eriksen and sometimes Casemiro and Fred contributed towards the playmaking. By bringing in a wide playmaker in Amad, having Shaw back or bringing in worthy cover in the summer, playing Mainoo in a more offensive position along with proper support alongside and behind him, we'll see a big improvement in front of goal involving Garnacho and Hojlund. That's not to say they won't/don't have their off games too, but I think you're being unfair with your ranking of their ability, when there are other factors out of their control affecting their game.
Are Bruno and Rashford a problem?
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But out defence has carried us
Mainoo won't be able to do much offensively with Bruno playing.
Not necessarily, they could maybe work as the two CMs in front of a DM, as long as Bruno plays more of a discipled role like we saw vs Liverpool after Amad was brought on as a 10. If he can't then we might have a midfield set up without Bruno as an integral part of it. We need 2 or 3 midfield signings this summer so we should prepare how to set up a midfield without him anyway.
Hear you. The degradation of Eriksen and Casemiro is unfortunate. Those two + Bruno were undefeated for a long spell last season when starting together. But even last season, we only scored 58 goals in the league - it was a poor attacking return.
All layers of the team are reliant on the others to some extent - they need to be able to play with and for each other. But at the end of the day, different parts of the team have different primary functions - the front three need to score and assist. Oftentimes, they'll need to do it with one another.
That just doesn't happen today except in transition - Rashford and Garnacho are head-down players. Amad might be better in some respects but has he done anything at the top level to show that? Not yet.
By the way, I bet we agree on a lot. I think a CDM and competition for starting LB are probably the two most important positions for us (if Varane stays).
But I just think you're way too optimistic about those changes (and a positional shift for Kobbie, who himself has a long way to go) will suddenly make this attack elite.
For me, that will require at least 2 strong signings for our front 4. But since those aren't the priority positions, I bet it will take multiple transfer windows to get there.
Going solely off what they’re paid and how they’re propped up by the club, they’re being counted on to be their era’s Cantona, Giggs, Scholes, Keane, Vidic, Rooney, Ronaldo. Is there anything more that needs to be added?
You forgot Mount here but agree with everything.
If we are to continue with ETH, and that is a big if, his current set-up requires a stronger DCM to partner with Mainoo and Mount. Let's Bruno and Rashford go and we can bring in a winger and another playmaker to be more effective with Mainoo in both controlling the game and maintaining possession. Do it like Pep, if you keep losing the ball then you can go. A good left back to cover for Shaw would also be necessary.
In term of priority for this summer:
1. World class DCM (keep Casemiro as sub and promote another youth as 2nd back-up)
2. World class play maker (sell Bruno, have Mount switching from left forward to center as back up, promote another youth as 2nd back up)
3. World class left forward (sell Rashford, bring in someone like Anthony Gordon, have Amad as sub)
3. An older striker at reasonable price to switch with Hojlund (release Martial, promote another youth as 2nd back up)
4. A decent left back to sub for Shaw (sell Malacia, promote another youth as 2nd back up)
Carrington is doing well, we should start to promote our youth more, can't just go out and buy everyone. A good mix between world class purchase and youth promotion should be the way forward.
Love Garnacho’s attitude but people need to get realistic. If Garnacho and Amad are main winger options next season then they need to be complimented with someone more established / mature, for us to produce enough in the final third. Complimenting them with the dreadful Rashford will result in another 60 odd goal season. Enjoy that shit show I suppose which is magically supposed to work with “great coaching”. You’d think this was 2005 and these two were Rooney and Ronaldo with the way some people talk.
So you want us to be 6th
Bruno isn’t suddenly becoming a playmaker all of a sudden. It’ll keep failing until we have a manager who believes in having qualities in his 10 / attacking 8 that Bruno doesn’t and pushes the club for it.
It worked against Liverpool because big teams no matter how they’re setup can put on good displays. In the long run it is doomed to fail. You can’t have midfield control without the players to facilitate it.
Lack of effort and intensity from Rashford is the reason why he shouldn’t be at the club. Just plain lazy in a lot of games this season and not worth the wages.
Bruno is a brilliant player but tries too much covering the whole pitch pressing and it’s costing us. Last game he’s pressing the keeper and leaves us open in midfield and almost costs us a goal.
Maybe it’s not the players and it’s the tactics, Rashford isn’t being dropped for lack of export or intensity during games so maybe ETH is telling him to stay high and let the game pass him by. He seems to be un-droppable and can do no wrong. I’d rather Garnacho and Antony, at least they track back and can help out the defence.
Same with Bruno maybe he’s been given a free role to roam everywhere about the pitch. He needs to direct the team im front of the play and not in behind.
If he gets Højlund to press the keeper and then moves the wingers and midfield up further, defence then should step up more to close off the space between.
Keep Bruno and sell Rashford.
Bruno is a brilliant player but tries too much covering the whole pitch pressing and it’s costing us. Last game he’s pressing the keeper and leaves us open in midfield and almost costs us a goal.
Maybe it’s not the players and it’s the tactics, Rashford isn’t being dropped for lack of export or intensity during games so maybe ETH is telling him to stay high and let the game pass him by. He seems to be un-droppable and can do no wrong. I’d rather Garnacho and Antony, at least they track back and can help out the defence.
Same with Bruno maybe he’s been given a free role to roam everywhere about the pitch. He needs to direct the team im front of the play and not in behind.
If he gets Højlund to press the keeper and then moves the wingers and midfield up further, defence then should step up more to close off the space between.
Keep Bruno and sell Rashford.
Rashford is definitely a problem with his attitude and he basically lacks everything (dribbling, pressing, duels, tracking back, passing, decision making) apart from his moderate goal output. Any United fan with a sane mind should want him gone this summer.
Also we were denied clear penalties against City and Spurs, getting fecked over by VAR on a bunch of occasions.
We should have beaten Arsenal and Spurs and we should have gotten at least a draw against City and Brighton at OT.
So it goes both ways. We got unlucky with terrible var decisions and jammy goals a lot this season.
Yeah, I guess you can go both ways on some of these results, but based on our overall performances, we’re honestly lucky to be 6th. I’m not a massive xG fan, but I bet we’re lower than our actual position in an xG league table.
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I’d say you’re both wrong.Garnacho and Amad? Bottom half wingersA front 3 of Garnacho, Hojlund and Amad has potential to be the best in the league. Once we have a new midfield with a proper structure to support them, we’re in great shape.
Hojlund has all the tools to be a top striker.
Garnacho lacks from standing 1v1s but his tenacity is probably his best trait.
Amad hasn’t done anything yet to be considered even close to leagues best potential.
A front three of those wouldn’t be a best in class (I don’t think at any point in the future) but it would, mainly due to Højlund and Garnacho, be good enough for top 4 and maybe a challenge in a few years time.
Amad though is by far the weakest component there.
Why are we lumping Bruno in with Rashford?
Bruno is a maverick for sure but grafts his socks off and actually produces match winning moments on a regular basis.
Rashford should be playing for Bournemouth and he'd be lucky at that.
Bruno is a maverick for sure but grafts his socks off and actually produces match winning moments on a regular basis.
Rashford should be playing for Bournemouth and he'd be lucky at that.
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This really hit me this morning.
I’ve always been a bit nervous I suppose of being critical of Rashford too much because well I like him. But however dysfunctional our side may be this is absolutely a massive issue. Because he’s an academy player, because we’ve had some great moments and a very good season of returns from his last season I think many of us always hold back that extra step of criticism on him.
We all want to believe in fairytale endings, but is the fairytale over?
If star players can’t perform to world class levels consistently then they shouldn’t be paid world class salaries.
Rashford is meant to be our main man. The salary reflects this and yet if Salah/Haaland were having the kind of season Rashford has we’d be pissing ourselves.
I also think again while I absolutely love Bruno for his role in Ole ball he’s just not suited long term to our side. He’s not a half turn player. Annoyingly if you put Mount and Bruno into one player I think you’d have a scary one!
He does, but is that regular enough? I actually went through all his matches for United this season and looked for those where he scored or assisted
So which match winning moments did he have (being generous and including all goals/assists, no matter how high the total score was and how crucial it was - United usually has close wins anyway, so in a way every goal is crucial)
None in the CL
None in the Carabao
Wigan, Newport and Nottingham in the FA Cup
Wolves, Everton, Fulham (twice), Sheffield, Burnley and again Nottingham in the PL
If we are being generous we can add the draw in Istanbul.
Besides those matches he only scored/assisted against Bayern and Kopenhagen in the 4:3 losses in the CL and once against City in the PL.
If you just looked at the list of clubs he scored against without knowing who the player is who did this, most would call him a flat track bully etc.
If you want to become relevant at the top again, you need a playmaker who regularly can create against the upper half of the PL table. A single assist against City after three quarters of the season just isn't good enough.
Bruno is a high risk high reward player. When things are not coming off for him, he just keeps giving the ball away. I'm starting to believe that there is no way we can keep the ball for a prolonged period of time with him in the team, as he will eventually try a Gerrard type Hollywood ball. This makes it much harder to break teams down and is affecting our goals scored output, and the number of shots we concede. He does have an upside though, if we are playing our usual all out chaos no structure football. He also does work his socks off, most of the time.
Rashford is a whole other story, in my opinion. He is just not productive or industrious enough as compared to the top wide forwards in the league. For the wages he's getting, and the spotlight that is on him, i don't really see and upside. I really liked the first few years. He's a local academy product and he loves the club, but at this point he really doesnt add enough.
Rashford is a whole other story, in my opinion. He is just not productive or industrious enough as compared to the top wide forwards in the league. For the wages he's getting, and the spotlight that is on him, i don't really see and upside. I really liked the first few years. He's a local academy product and he loves the club, but at this point he really doesnt add enough.
It was a phenomenal assist though. Even Rashford (he of the non game changing moments) couldn’t possibly have missed that one.
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I think it’s because the two of them are our attacking talismans.
Bruno suffers more I think because he’s always on the pitch he’s always associated with any failure.
All are more consistent than Bruno plus signing any one will give Bruno the rest and the lock up his backside he needs to regain consistent high calibre levels!
It's interesting how he was compared to players with arguably the best two managers in the world & possibly even some of the best two team's in the world.
As much as Rashford does deserve critisim - I do think it's a bit too much to expect him to be this top level consistent player without a top level manager building a top level team at this club.
Would Salah be getting his Liverpool numbers here at United under Erik Ten Hag? I dont think so, not with our midfield our fullbacks and arguably our Centre Forward(s). Haaland is a goalscoring machine - yet everyone has talked about how little service Hojlund has gotten here at United. Would Haaland be scoring for fun playing off arguably only Dalot's crosses all season? Again I don't think so.
The perfect example for me is Raheem Sterling under Guardiola.
Under Guardiola at Man City he was scoring goals for fun down the left hand side, even though it was clear to alot of people that he will eventually be replaced. Now we look at him at Chelsea & his performances looks like a complete shadow of himself at City under Guardiola.
He plays for currently a rubbish team and arguably a rubbish manager - and he just like Rashford is being picked out as someone who is not good enough on an individual level at Chelsea even though for many years he was doing just fine at Manchester City. & I even remember people calling him the best English player in the world during that time.
For me Rashford is someone with low to average work rate that has arguably had no work rate all season because he knows that Erik Ten Hag's tactics are not good enough both for him (why he looks self centred & moody) and for the team. On top of that Ten Hag's signings have not been good enough which has directly affected the mood of the team ( Onana's CL Form vs Current Form, Mount, Malacia, Amrabat, Weghorst etc). Ten Hag as a manager has clrealy not been good enough here. Yet under all of these problems people expect the players to be good enough & play consistently on the ball or even showing consistent work rate.
Sure we should have players that bust a gut playing for this 'club's badge' like Roy Keane vs Juventus but again I do think that Roy Keane under Ten Hag would look different in terms of both quality and quantitiy compared to him under SAF whilst not even bringing the team in to the equation. Both the manager and the whole team has not been good enough here to the point that the fans start picking out our players like a bad piece in a puzzle that can suddenly fit perfect when it's only really a manager who could really ever do that.
If Sterling can play for Manchester City under Guardiola - then I'd argue Rashford could have aswell near the same time Sterling did (for all the people saying he can't play possesion football because he isn't that good enough on the ball whilst arguably coming through Van Gaal aswell).
However, both would look crap at Chelsea why? Because the Manager & the team that has been built is simply not good enough.
And what are we right now?
Just another Chelsea with our version of Pochettino & our version of Sterling.
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Good post.
And I don’t passionately disagree with it because part of me wonders how much is the player vs the circumstances. Rashford hasn’t had a LB to play with all season. That is going to impact him in attack more than anyone else.
Yes, because that's exactly what I meant.
And this season when he has Shaw?
Amad is as talented as Garnacho. That'll become clear once Ten Hag gives him a run of games.
What? Bruno has always been a playmaker for us.
To the point where he doesn't do anything else.
Rashford has attitude problems, but I understand why. 23/24 we do not have any plan how to attack, no idea of how to move as a team. Bruno lunches risky passes and Rashford must run, most of time useless runs. I think most players would lose motivation....
Ole was clever so he setup the system to get the best out of these 2 (counter attacking).
I am not sure what is ETH even trying to do with this team, we were being attacked at teams freewill which I take it if we are freely scoring but that is not happening either.
I am not sure what is ETH even trying to do with this team, we were being attacked at teams freewill which I take it if we are freely scoring but that is not happening either.
Well I think you are looking at it from 1 angle, when looking at what he takes from out football is more important.
You compare him to Salah and Sterling but neither ruins chances as much as him, or stops the flow of football, or backtracks less, or runs into corners.
The main complaints are not that he isn't scoring enough, but he damages our play with his technical weaknesses, lack of brains, and low effort.
Sterling is a player who has been overrated due to the teams he has played in, and would still be significantly better than Rashford due to the fact he can pass decently sometimes and is technically better.
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Shaw hasn’t been around enough for me to judge that to be fair.
And what are you basing this on? By all accounts Amad has been implied to lack the same work ethic (Mitten et al) which has held him back.
There’s a big difference between talent and “best in the league” and he’s not shown that kind of potential because that would be a Salah style player as a left footed RW.
Yup, which is why whilst im sympathetic towards Rashford my patience for someone earning that rate isn’t enough I don’t think to excuse it.
Id argue Salah would be scoring and assisting more for us right now even despite our shite season.
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I definitely think he’s duelling a lot less 1v1.
He can’t go shoulder to shoulder anymore.
I do think it’s injury based. I think his back and shoulder injuries have meant it’s just not going to be his game.
Based on statistics. His technical ability is at a very high level. He hardly ever gives the ball away, he's very good at keeping hold of possession in the final third, and on top of that he manages to be a creative player too. It's not often you have a player that creates a lot of chances whilst hardly ever giving away possession. Chuck in his goalscoring ability as well, you have a very talented player. His work ethic is fine, after the Liverpool game Ten Hag said he's been training hard and well, but hasn't had the opportunity due to competition in the side. He took his chance vs Liverpool and hopefully now we'll see him getting more minutes on the pitch.
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Please could you provide the source of your stats so I can better understand your argument in context?
We need a complete rebuild. I would keep Hojlund, Martinez, Garnacho
I do agree, Bruno is part of the problem, but unfortunately not the entire problem. It goes way deeper.
Those are just some of the problems, as much as I don't like to say it, ETH is over his head. The setups are too much a park the bus version and try for transition. Then they don't have enough up on the transition and weak on 1 v 1. They are too compact, don't move the ball quick enough and the back end doesn't stay with the play. It is really broken. It needs to be rebuilt from the ground up, I would keep some players, but guys like Rashford and Bruno are not any of them.
FBref
I hate to mention his name because i never really rated him but I think losing Sancho as the potential False 9 may have affected both his & our teams form more than some people realise.
Sancho as a false 9 seemed like our Plan B or even Plan C when it came to the central forward.
Sancho was looking better playing as a false 9 during pre-season and his main attributes are his through balls which would have been useful to inverted forwards like Rashford, Garnacho and even possibly Antony.
We lost Sancho & lost Martial - our ability for a central forward to play an inverted forward in behind the defence got lost with them going missing.
After that Hojlund became our only CF and the tactics changed to always having inverted forwards trying to play in a centralised poacher which simply doesn't work very well.
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Thank you @luke511.
Unfortunately this is based on 624 mins of football the bulk of which is made up of Championship minutes.
So I can see why you’ve drawn those conclusions but the sample Fbref provides is too small, and at not high enough a level, to reach the conclusion he’s got the potential to be the best in the PL.
I guess we’ll have to just see if he gets given the chance to show what you hope he can be.
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