For 100m I don’t want another ‘workrate’ forward - I want magic and a difference maker. So far, Antony hasn’t shown the ability to even carry the ball at pace unopposed, let alone the fact that he wants nothing to do with a defender once confronted. This makes us too easy to defend against. Martial is not taking players on like he used to. Bruno is incapable of taking anyone on, and Antony doesn’t even try either. Rashford is the only player we have who is willing to even try to beat a man, and at the very top level of football that just isn’t good enough and makes us easy to defend against. Especially as it’s not like we have a world-class tiki taka short-passing game either.
21
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 44
- Goals
- 8
- Assists
- 3
- Yellow cards
- 8
- Status
If he plays well at the end of next season, then people will say that when he does. Not before. It’s these performances now that are the topic of conversation, not the hypothetical post-dated ones we would all prefer to just assume will come.
You say people should have learned by now, yet people also never learn that the dismissal of poor performances on the basis that players will apparently inevitably hit the desired level at some comfortable later date is no guarantee. I’ve seen countless young players have performances just excused for years before almost overnight the same people simply decide to start calling the performances as they see them and they become public enemy all of a sudden.
Anyone with a brain can see Antony is young and his is new. That means feck all for critiquing what he produces on any given Saturday. If it’s poor, it can’t be called good. If it becomes good, then it shouldn’t be called poor. It’s not complicated at all. This is a performance thread.
Too many assumptions in your post without reading what I actually said, which was that talk to me at the end of next season about whether this has been a success OR failure. I am as dismissive of good performances as I am bad in assessing a players quality, at this early stage. The problem doesn’t come in saying he played poorly yesterday, or the week before. No argument from me. It comes when using those performances to draw conclusions about whether he is good enough for United or not. It’s way too early for that. Just like it was way too early when people were jizzing themselves after his first three games. I made no mention of inevitability of success, or failure in my post.
Same difference really. If someone thinks a player doesn’t look a good player after watching them for a couple of months then so what? If they think they are a good player after a couple of years then that’s what it is then. If people didn’t think Dalot was United level two years ago then that’s the impression they got from watching him. They may well think differently now. That doesn’t always happen either. I thought Scott McTominay was not good enough for United 4 years ago, and I still don’t think he is good enough now. I’m not sure it takes 2 years to form an assessment of a footballer. Does it take you two years to judge players who sign for Liverpool or Arsenal?
For me personally? Almost certainly. There’s an inherent bias in that I want players for rivals to be shit and I want players at United to succeed, but logic tells me that it’s too early to judge a player after a few months in a new country at a young age. There is a short term reactionism That dominates in football. You brought up a great example. Dalot. The example of a player who was young, developing, and written off by many. Yes, they were right in saying he wasn’t playing well at the time, but wrong in saying he should be sold. Players take time to develop, and it doesn’t always happen linearly or predictably. Just in the way people are too quick to write players off, they are too quick to hype them up. This leads to an inevitable backlash when their standards slip. Take note of virtually every young player to have broken through in the last 25 years.
So the point remains unchallenged. While Antony isn’t playing at a level currently that you would ideally want from a United right winger, it is both folly and unheeding of everything we know about player development and history, to use those performances as evidence that he will never be good enough. To do so is either coming from the trained eye of someone who excels in player analysis, or the reactionist knee jerk response that is so enormously common in fan bases. 999 times out of a 1,000, I’d wager the latter. Whether their doom mongering turn out to be true, is usually just a stroke of chance.
I have no idea if Antony is going to develop his game to the point where he is world class, top class, very good, just okay, or not good enough. What I do know is that he is talented, we spent a lot of money on him, the manager believes in him, and he plays for us. So there is a vested interest in doing the smart thing, which is to see how he develops. And for that, we need to give him time. History has shown us that over and over and over again. I have my reservations about him, he needs to develop many parts of his game, I’m impatient to see more than I’ve seen so far, but that doesn’t change the fact that it would be pretty stupid to draw definitive conclusions after a few months.
These are human beings, not stats in a football simulation. You asked about rival players and Nunez is a great example of that. I am loving watching him struggle so far, because I hate Liverpool. I want their big signings to fail. But, that doesn’t change the fact that it’s daft to pin your hopes on him failing based off the few months he’s been there. It’s easy to see that if he improved a couple of areas of his game, he could become a really good player for them. None of see what the coaches see in training. None of us see how hard these players are working (or not working) to improve, and none of us can predict how good (or bad), they can possibly become.
So back to my original post……it is daft to draw any conclusions about a player so early in their career and their stint at a club. Especially when it’s your own club. But hey, that’s just me. I’ve hated the abuse directed at so many of our young players by fans who concluded they weren’t good enough early on, only for those same fans to lavish them with praise when it turned out two years later they had actually developed into really good players. Just like I’ve hated the writing off and vitriol directed at other players who have suffered a dip in form, like they could never recover. Best recent example are the muppets who wanted Rashford released on a free.
Antony is 22. At 22 Scholes was just breaking into the team regularly. As a striker. Loads of people wanted him dropped. Who would’ve said then he’d develop into one of the greatest players in our history? Just as one example. And here was a guy familiar with the club, country, culture, language, playing style, food etc. I can cite you so many examples like that, which are relevant to our recent history, without even looking at other clubs. Vidic and Evra, first six months anyone? I’d love to go back and read the fan reactions at those two and how many wrote them off. I mean It’s just folly and self defeating to draw conclusions this early, positively or negatively. Yes, I’ll happily acknowledge he’s not been great so far, but with everything I’m not yet satisfied with, I see plenty to be positive about. Only time will tell. I don’t even need to prove my point, history has already done it for me many times over.
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That’s fair, and if nothing else, the eloquence of your post has bonded you to me for the foreseeable!
Very generous of you, thank you! And I say that with sincerity. Likewise, with regards to your magnanimity and open mindedness.
Seems to be some confusion here between judging the type of player he is with their quality. Who the feck knows what he will be playing like a year from now its too early to know that doesn't mean you can't ask questions like why ETH would be so desperate to spend such a huge fee for a player like him, i mean its surprising precisely because he plays a lot like Sancho [including his incongruant lack of effect in the final third] but with a seemingly stronger mentality and work rate.
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Really don't know how people don't see the benefit to having him in the side.
He's so press resistant it's scary, and whilst I'd agree he's not hit real highs yet, he's still contributing to us being a functioning attack, something we haven't been for years with gaping holes on that right side.
He needs to work on his end product but he's 22 with 1 season of professional football in Europe
He's so press resistant it's scary, and whilst I'd agree he's not hit real highs yet, he's still contributing to us being a functioning attack, something we haven't been for years with gaping holes on that right side.
He needs to work on his end product but he's 22 with 1 season of professional football in Europe
Yeah, the difference between when he plays and some of the games when he was injured before the World Cup is huge. The right hand side of our attack just immediately ceased to exist again.
Is that what we have then? With our pitiful goal difference despite barely conceding a goal? Our attack is an embarrassment and inferior to everyone around us bar Newcastle.
I think you've missed my point. Ten Hag managed Antony at Ajax and knows him well as a player. His belief in him means a lot more than believing Marin would be a good signing.
I'm sure antony will get this season to adapt, extend his skillset and fully get used to the PL.
Next season he should expect a lot of competition, in the form of Sancho and maybe even Amad who would be once again eager to prove themselves
Next season he should expect a lot of competition, in the form of Sancho and maybe even Amad who would be once again eager to prove themselves
Not like ten Hag has an impeccable record of buying former players.
I personally believe the purchase of Antony could haunt us for years. Mostly due to the limitation of future spending caused by his fee, and how he would have to be really crap before ten Hag would buy an upgrade.
I hate when we spend so much on average players, as it takes ages to have another go for their position.
Really hope I am wrong about him though.
Already better than Sancho in half a season.
He is used to play very differently at Ajax, and once utd starts dominating games he will show you how good he is.
At ajax we played 90% of our games on the opponent half, a bit like city plays, and he is very good at that. Also, a targetman will help him a lot. He started playing very well when Haller arrived.
He isn’t the Adam Traore type of winger, he is better in combination and he is good at pressing. When the team is becoming better at that (and that takes time), he will become a very good player for you.
Patience…
At ajax we played 90% of our games on the opponent half, a bit like city plays, and he is very good at that. Also, a targetman will help him a lot. He started playing very well when Haller arrived.
He isn’t the Adam Traore type of winger, he is better in combination and he is good at pressing. When the team is becoming better at that (and that takes time), he will become a very good player for you.
Patience…
I'll give him 1 season to settle. After that he has to perform to the least expectation we have on him as an important first team right winger - yes his price tag is not his fault, but we don't have unlimited funds for our rebuild either, so people can either blame him or ETH by then, but lets wait for at least a year to judge.
On the other hand, I am about to give up on Sancho, who has been given 1.5 years and under 3 managers to settle already, still no improvements, and he is really running out of excuse while pocketing 350k/week.. But since there's no way we could sell, we just have to stick with him here until end of his contract I guess. But he is no longer our automatic first choice for sure, he has to earn it back by his own merits now.
On the other hand, I am about to give up on Sancho, who has been given 1.5 years and under 3 managers to settle already, still no improvements, and he is really running out of excuse while pocketing 350k/week.. But since there's no way we could sell, we just have to stick with him here until end of his contract I guess. But he is no longer our automatic first choice for sure, he has to earn it back by his own merits now.
Yeah I'd say that's what we have when everyone is fit. It was only a week or so ago that Ten Hag got to start his first choice front 4 together in a game, and I think we're all of the opinion we are extremely light in attacking areas so it's no surprise that playing people out of position (Rashford ST, Bruno RW etc) or players we know just aren't up to it (Elanga) is going to cause us to drop in quality.
We've played less than half a season under a new manager, after being a complete disaster last year, with injuries and players unavailable in attack whilst being extremely light and you're expecting us to compete on goals scored with City and an Arsenal side in the form of its life.
We'll develop to that point and Antony will be a part of it when we're there.
I genuinely don't get why he's getting so much stick, I thought he was doing pretty ok all things considered.
Because many are absolutely clueless.
My favourite has been how he’s been attacked whenever morons are raving about how we should have signed X instead, who invariably is a left winger
It's bizarre, he's had a decent goal return (for this stage of his acclimatization) including one against arsenal and seems to slowly fitting in well.
Did folk assume we were buying prime arjan robben?
100% this. I hope people would realise during his spell out of the team how it massively affected our performances and ability to maintain possession, but alas, no.
Started off brilliantly well in my opinion, looked a top talent. Seems to have lost his way a little bit since the World Cup.
The more people don't rate him, the higher his reported transfer fee becomes too it seems. He was now £100m, not £82-85m as reported at the time, depending on which paper you read.
Still a hideous sum, mind.
Nervous do to his usual tricks given the uproar in the media last time…
The feck this is disappointing I was expecting mud slinging and you guys cussing each other out.
Just occurred to me that if we didn't sign this guy, we'd basically not have had a right winger for the majority of the season
Would’ve seen a lot more of Elanga.
We are gentlemen and drink PIMMS.
We’d have played Sancho on the right, or kept Amad in all likelihood.
Excellent post. One of my biggest annoyances is how quickly some of the posters here write players off in the past few seasons going to large extremes. Antony is one; Bruno is another where we would never win anything with him in the side. Fred and McTominay are not footballers, after waiting months for Martial to return, he’s a waste of space etc. Same goes with the likes of Rashford, Shaw, De Gea, Sancho and Maguire.
Fair enough if they have a bad game, or if they’re in bad form, criticize the player for that game - but in a lot of the cases, their mind has been made up and no matter how they play, they’re attacked and are not good enough for the club. I’m not saying it’s always wrong, but there’s less toxic ways in accessing a players performance.
Posters have explained in large detail why they have criticised him and it's mostly due to his limitations in the attacking phase of play. These haven't been plucked out of the air, infact I'd say they've been pretty obvious.
You're right he's done ok but ok isn't the standard here. Has time on his side of course but we can only talk about what we've seen so far.
Considering Sancho is the only true alternative in the team was out of the team when Antony was injured its only normal we would miss him. His alternatives before the WC break were Rashford and Elanga two players who aren't right wingers. Antony is the only true RW in the team so he'll be important by default in the same way Matic was important last year because he was our only DM.
I think everyone recognises his importance we just want more offensively which isn't a bad thing. I posted his creativity stats earlier and they are really bad. The question marks about him are valid.
As for now he reminds me of Valencia. Solid, one-footed, hard-working player. I was expecting more from a Brazil international costing 70 mil
I agree with this
Very good post overall, but I will say I disagree with the key premise here which is 'What I do know is that he is talented'.
I don't see it. I've see many, many talented young players at this club and he just doesn't stand up against the better ones. Players like Martial, Shaw, Greenwood just screamed that they had bags and bags of ability, but were/are missing some pieces (often consistency, match intelligence, personality or whatever) that was missing. Like you said some of them never manage to put it together. But all 3 of them were younger than him when they broke through here, and the bags of ability they had was obvious. Antony isn't a player that makes you think he's got a lot in his locker that he's ready to unleash.
Just saying that someone is talented doesn't make it true (he obviously has enough talent to be a PL level footballer - we're talking elite level talent though for a top 5 european club).
Who knows who was at fault but did not enjoy seeing that video of him recording himself speeding a few weeks ago.
Ffs 
He's been here all of 5 minutes, played 15 games (probably handful of 90 minutes), and less than 10 league games.
He's averaging a goal every 3 games and looks a threat most times I've seen him. He's completely different to any other wide player we have and looks like a real Utd player in my opinion.
Did we overpay? Yes. But that's on the board for not getting him at least 20m cheaper by moving earlier in the window.
He's been here all of 5 minutes, played 15 games (probably handful of 90 minutes), and less than 10 league games.
He's averaging a goal every 3 games and looks a threat most times I've seen him. He's completely different to any other wide player we have and looks like a real Utd player in my opinion.
Did we overpay? Yes. But that's on the board for not getting him at least 20m cheaper by moving earlier in the window.
Finally it's a relief to come into this thread and see some balanced posts today regarding Antony as I usually dread coming in and reading all the negativity.
Antony seems to have become the new whipping boy when in reality he's done reasonably well and nowhere near looking like a flop.
We all know we have paid around 25-30m more than this worth as he should have been Raphina or Richardson money. However left footed right wingers are very rare these days and nearly all of us wanted Utd to purchase him.
I've been pleasantly surprised by his goal output as usually new players take time on that coming into this league and his previous scoring record is not particularly high.
I am slightly disappointed at his lack of take ons and especially on the outside. Whilst his lack of assists can also be linked with us not having a focal point number 9. However I think he can and will improve on that.
I think the biggest issue with our fans who are hating on Antony are the ones who watched a few YouTube videos and assumed we were getting a prime Robben or Nani due to the tricks be displayed. I think they are more disappointed in their judgement being wrong as they would have clamoured for this signing in the summer.
The second issue is we have a lot of covert fans on this forum masquerading as Utd fans and some of the negativity is coming from there.
Antony seems to have become the new whipping boy when in reality he's done reasonably well and nowhere near looking like a flop.
We all know we have paid around 25-30m more than this worth as he should have been Raphina or Richardson money. However left footed right wingers are very rare these days and nearly all of us wanted Utd to purchase him.
I've been pleasantly surprised by his goal output as usually new players take time on that coming into this league and his previous scoring record is not particularly high.
I am slightly disappointed at his lack of take ons and especially on the outside. Whilst his lack of assists can also be linked with us not having a focal point number 9. However I think he can and will improve on that.
I think the biggest issue with our fans who are hating on Antony are the ones who watched a few YouTube videos and assumed we were getting a prime Robben or Nani due to the tricks be displayed. I think they are more disappointed in their judgement being wrong as they would have clamoured for this signing in the summer.
The second issue is we have a lot of covert fans on this forum masquerading as Utd fans and some of the negativity is coming from there.
How many? Feels like he's subbed off in every game he starts.Ffs
He's been here all of 5 minutes, played 15 games (probably handful of 90 minutes), and less than 10 league games.
He's averaging a goal every 3 games and looks a threat most times I've seen him. He's completely different to any other wide player we have and looks like a real Utd player in my opinion.
Did we overpay? Yes. But that's on the board for not getting him at least 20m cheaper by moving earlier in the window.
I'm always hopeful when we get a new signing, but he (mr 7 goals in a full eredivisie season) was nothing special over here either. Too bad my voice got drowned in the massive heap of ajax fanboys. I'm fine with labeling him a flop. Should have done it sooner with Donny.
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