Great news. We desperately need all the attacking options that we have fit for as much of the rest of the season if we are to be able to push hard in all competitions. Hopefully Martial can get there soon too and stay fit for the next few months. Sancho being back is a huge boost too.
21
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 44
- Goals
- 8
- Assists
- 3
- Yellow cards
- 8
- Status
Great news. We desperately need all the attacking options that we have fit for as much of the rest of the season if we are to be able to push hard in all competitions. Hopefully Martial can get there soon too and stay fit for the next few months. Sancho being back is a huge boost too.
With Sancho's resurgence we should have a half decent attack;
Sancho, Rashford, Garnacho, Bruno, Antony, Martial, Weghorst. Those 7 fighting for 4 positions, then Pellestri and Elanga to fill in when required.
Garnacho too.
Of course! how could I forget. Even better.
Definitely. If Martial can get fit and Sancho keeps it up it could really give us some supplementary goalscorers to Marcus until we can hopefully buy a proper one in the summer too. The more options for the rest of the season the better.
If he's fit I wouldn't be hugely surprised to see him start.
I think he'll start from the bench vs Barca and start the final.
Are you actually calling him a sick note for being shoved down a slope into advertising hoardings and getting injured through no fault of his own? Been out once prior to this. Hardly means he’s a sick note.
Strange take. Weghorst plays regardless of all. And he's still more likely to contribute to a goal than Antony.
You can consider if makes sense to play Antony ahead of Sancho or Bruno on RW, but that is hardly an easy choice at the moment.
Why strange take? Since when does Weghorst play regardless of everything, when did that become a thing? And how is he more likely to contribute to a goal than Antony with his 1 goal in 9 games, starting 7 of them as a striker? Explain that like I'm 5, please.
If Antony is fit, I'd much rather have him on the right, Bruno middle, Sancho left. And if we have to protect a lead in second half, then you can take Antony or Sancho off for a 3rd midfielder or for Weghorst.
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Based on what ?
Basiacally Wout started last 10/11 games, so since he joined he's the first name on the team sheet right? I also don't understand why in the initial post you said you would play Antony instead of Wout, as they don't compete for the same position.
That's quite easy, Wout is more likely to contribute directly to a goal (score/assist). He's been doing that regularly the last few games. He had clear chances he did not convert, he also put Sancho through vs Leeds etc. His chances were high quality (not a gazillion of shots outside the box) what means eventually he will score. That is reflected by the stats as well.
Wout plays as a striker/#10, so it's easier for him to get goals obviously, but the initial point was
So if we want to compare how likely is either of them to contribute to a goal, then there's little to argue about.
Just to be clear it doesn't even mean Wout is a great, or even good enough forward.
We should be having a debate Antony vs Sancho or Bruno, Wout is a different story.
Who told you he’s first name on the team sheet? He started due to absences. Doesn’t mean he starts regardless, when people come back. What an absurd assumption to make.
They indirectly compete for a place in the attack. Since ETH probably realised that Weghorst isn’t sharp or clinical enough to be a striker and moved him deeper at #10, moving Bruno to the RW. That happened also due to the absence of decent right wingers with Antony out. Why would you start Weghorst at #10 instead of having Bruno there and having Antony on the right?
First time I see someone counting goal contributions by a striker keeping defenders occupied. Every goal a team scores must be a striker contribution then.
Given the stats so far it’s pretty clear that Bruno at #10 and Antony RW is more productive and reliable than WW at #10 and Antony right. It’s also a faster team on the counter.
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Antony also had many chances he didn't convert on top of the ones he scores and assisted. Very strange take tbh, as inconsistent as Antony has been, he's been more productive than Wout
I guess you're right, but we will never find out until Martial is back. So until that the statement "Wout is one of the first names on the team sheet" is correct. ETH could play Rashford at CF and drop Wout, he still doesn't do that.
It's more likely he will leave Wout in CF position with Bruno #10 and Antony on the right. As it was the case before. It's safe to assume both Wout and Antony play when fit and I think that is the best setup. Although if Bruno and Sancho continue playing on this level in RW/#10 respectively, that might change.
I don't know why you keep bringing Wout #10 in this discussion. Rashford, Bruno, Wout will always play, no matter in which role we put them. So it's Antony vs Sancho / Bruno that is open.
The initial discussion was who is more likely to contribute to a goal. This would be Wout. Check the stats(xG+xAG - this is exactly what this parameter represents). Antony has not scored a goal nor assisted for 9 games in EPL (basically since he scored 3 in first 3 games), and I am not sure if we want him to take a 100 shots outside of the box against Barca.
We might want Antony in the team for more control over midfield areas and to stretch to play, but he's not really the guy to directly contribute to a goal. That's hardly a controversial statement. Wout is a poor finisher (it seems), but he got a few good chances recently which he didn't score, so not particularly worrying. Whether he played CF/#10, doesn't really matter. What matters more for Antony is that Bruno has been amazingly productive on the right wing, with Sancho occupying central areas.
@Borys xG +xA isn't an unfallible stat, the eye test is more than enough tbh. Last night Liverpool had more xG than Real Madrid but at no point did I think Liverpool were likely to win.
However if the stat is to be used, Wout being more central makes sense for that stat to be marginally better for him (0.36 to 0.32 isn't that different tbh) which tells me how Wout has actually been a non threat. For a guy playing centrally, he should be a lot more dangerous than Antony
However if the stat is to be used, Wout being more central makes sense for that stat to be marginally better for him (0.36 to 0.32 isn't that different tbh) which tells me how Wout has actually been a non threat. For a guy playing centrally, he should be a lot more dangerous than Antony
Glad he's back. Hopefully has a good 3-4 games before his next injury.
I'd like to see a Sancho - Rashford - Antony front 3 trialled.
I'd like to see a Sancho - Rashford - Antony front 3 trialled.
It's based on model so there's an error "included", but it's the best way to predict future performance for sure? Wout may be a shite finisher, he will still get a goal simply because he gets into those situation/team creates them for him.
But fair enough about the eye test. Let's get back on track with the thread, and what does "eye" test tell you that isn't reflected in Antony stats?
Genuinely curious about your take because I believe Antony is actually very well represented by statistical model / description.
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Tbh, I don't believe in any model predicting the future. Football is way too random of a game for these stats as far I'm concerned. Using stats to analyze performances for sure but when it reaches predictions, I can't compute it.
About the eye test, I know that Weghorst has his role (workhorse) but when it comes to actually affecting the scoreline, I don't get my hopes high
Same thing with Antony at a different position, however the latter can be a key component in terms of ball retention, linking up that could create opportunities for/by others
Agreed. They are both in the same bucket of "tactical" players (who execute the instructions to the toe), even if neither of them is a player you throw in if you're chasing a game. It really shows how excellent job Ten Hag has been doing, given limited resources.
If Antony is fit enough imo ETH would start him over WW. Starting with a DS seems a bit redundant when we'd have our real DM back. Plus we still need to score I think.
I definitely agree with that. Just hope any of them can start contributing more.
It's his birthday tomorrow, turning 23. Hopefully we'll get him a nice present by knocking Barca out.
Absences. In my opinion he didn't do that, because he didn't have enough midfielders or capable wingers available. The injuries to McTominay and Eriksen as well as the suspension of Case just as Sabitzer arrived, meant we were bare bones in MF and couldn't play 4-3-3 if we wanted to. Sancho was out for 3 months until couple of weeks ago while Antony was out till... today. Fernandes and Rashford always started but who else could start with them for those other 2 forward positions in the 4-2-3-1 that we play?
What we learned from the past month or so, is that Weghorst is clearly more trusted than Garnacho, Elanga or Pellistri to start games. Otherwise like you said, he would have played Rashford up front and then 2 out of Garnacho, Elagna and Pellistri would have played alongside Bruno in the 3. Then those guys would have more minutes than Wout. But they don't, so obviously he prefers the team with Wout over those. And when Sancho became available he started immediately getting games alongside Bruno, so I'd say he's also more trusted than those 3. But now Antony is available too, as well as an extra MFs with the return of McTominay. And Antony has always been picked when available.
So the question is, given Rashford and Fernandes are obvious starters, does he prefer to start Wout over one of Sancho/Antony or over a 3rd midfielder (for example Fred at #10, ahead of Case and one of McTominay/Sabitzer next to him)? We don't know that, he didn't even have those options till now. But I guess we're about to find out with 2 crucial games coming up in the space of 4 days.
Wout played the last two games as a #10, that's why we bring it up. On the bolded, you simply don't know. Yes, Bruno and Rashford will always play important games, of course. But you just don't know that Wout is certainly preferred over one of Antony or Sancho. They haven't simultaneously been available for a single game since Wout arrived. He might well play with Wout up front and then have Rashy, Bruno and Antony behind him. Those last 3, in those positions, have always started when available as part of our best line up. Even when Martial was fit and when Ronaldo was here. But now he can also play Sancho over Wout and move Rashford up top. We'll see what he picks.
Absences. In my opinion he didn't do that, because he didn't have enough midfielders or capable wingers available. The injuries to McTominay and Eriksen as well as the suspension of Case just as Sabitzer arrived, meant we were bare bones in MF and couldn't play 4-3-3 if we wanted to. Sancho was out for 3 months until couple of weeks ago while Antony was out till... today. Fernandes and Rashford always started but who else could start with them for those other 2 forward positions in the 4-2-3-1 that we play?
What we learned from the past month or so, is that Weghorst is clearly more trusted than Garnacho, Elanga or Pellistri to start games. Otherwise like you said, he would have played Rashford up front and then 2 out of Garnacho, Elagna and Pellistri would have played alongside Bruno in the 3. Then those guys would have more minutes than Wout. But they don't, so obviously he prefers the team with Wout over those. And when Sancho became available he started immediately getting games alongside Bruno, so I'd say he's also more trusted than those 3. But now Antony is available too, as well as an extra MFs with the return of McTominay. And Antony has always been picked when available.
So the question is, given Rashford and Fernandes are obvious starters, does he prefer to start Wout over one of Sancho/Antony or over a 3rd midfielder (for example Fred at #10, ahead of Case and one of McTominay/Sabitzer next to him)? We don't know that, he didn't even have those options till now. But I guess we're about to find out with 2 crucial games coming up in the space of 4 days.
Wout played the last two games as a #10, that's why we bring it up. On the bolded, you simply don't know. Yes, Bruno and Rashford will always play important games, of course. But you just don't know that Wout is certainly preferred over one of Antony or Sancho. They haven't simultaneously been available for a single game since Wout arrived. He might well play with Wout up front and then have Rashy, Bruno and Antony behind him. Those last 3, in those positions, have always started when available as part of our best line up. Even when Martial was fit and when Ronaldo was here. But now he can also play Sancho over Wout and move Rashford up top. We'll see what he picks.
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That is interesting indeed. I do think Wout will keep starting games, because he helps us to keep better shape and works his ass off pressing defenders. It's not like we had problems scoring goals lately with him in the team. Rashford is still better starting on the left / roaming around rather than a focal point.
But it certainly will be interesting how ETH will set up the team with Antony and Sancho available, PLUS Bruno apparently doing a good job on the right. You could argue bringing Antony is a more of a defensive setup/to get more control over midfield, but again, Case is back too so this might not be a priority.
I think we will keep starting Antony and Wout, and then sub Antony for Sancho, Bruno moving to RW, Garnacho for Wout, Rashford for CF. This means we should be able to control the games better in early stages, and we will have great offensive power for last 30mins. Should keep everyone happy as well.
That might well be what happens. It's entirely possible, more probable even. The heart of my argument and disagreement with you, was that it's not certain. ETH's choices have since the start of the year been constrained by a lot of absences. But now we're entering a period with only a couple of key absences (Eriksen and Martial) instead of 4 or 5 keys absences as before. So I'm quite curious to see what he chooses.
I wouldn't be surprised if he starts just like you mentioned. But I'm personally biased, as I'm more fond of technical players than workhorses. So if it was me picking, I would very much prefer Sancho over Wout with Rashford upfront and would consider this the more "attacking" line up. But I'm not the one picking, tactics and team balance do matter more, and we haven't been starved of goals this past month you are totally correct on that. So he might well see your selection as more robust, while not lacking in attacking potential.
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Fred can be that guy as well.
Fred in the 10 behind Rashford with Bruno and Sancho/Antony on the wings.
Man Utd 2:1 Barcelona
Goal or not we're so obviously a better side with him in it
Maybe now some of the negative nellies will be quiet for a while, difference with and without him is stark.
Happy for him. He was very positive when he came on
Proved he's worth every penny today ! All is forgiven for such goal ! 
Brilliant finish
f the haters
Great goal! Made a huge difference when he came on.
Lovely finish. Some bad decision making at time but thought he brought a good energy today. Big difference him coming on for Weghorst.
Great goal and the shape massively improved with him on. There are areas of his game which you would like him to improve but he does a lot of valuable things for the team.
welcome back
we just look better with him on the pitch
we just look better with him on the pitch
As always, the team looks way more balanced with him in it. And a nice goal too.
He just makes us better as a team as our shape is so much better. Great goal too
That goal was worth at least 5 million
Big game player.
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