Antonio Valencia... | Will wear #25 shirt from this point onwards by request

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RonaldoVII said:
I thought he played well today. Made Baines look average at times when he's arguably the best LB in the league.
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I've never really rated Baines' defensive ability much. He stands out due to his attacking prowess, set pieces and good contributions in build ups but defensively he's just as average as mist other left backs in the league.

Hence it was no surprise that Valencia even in the form he is in right now wasn't in much trouble against him. However he was still quite poor in getting a good cross away despite having loads of space and time. It's painful to watch him in this state, more because when the rest of the team is working so hard to keep the ball and create a chance, it's very irritating watching one player getting his fair share of chances and blowing all that away.
 
He must be carrying a niggle or something that means he can burst past players like earlier... or something. It's really weird how much more timid he's become in his approach to getting around his defender.

Still, handy player, keeps possession well and has great defensive discipline.
 
Even if he's carrying something, Fergie wouldn't say anything. It's like revealing a weakness.

It was his best performance in months, anyway. Not too threatning with the ball, but good link up play and that made a difference.
 
Tomuś said:
He's been doing that for a good month now and, no offence to anyone, I don't think this game was any different to his last few outings. Good shift defensively, mostly smart short passing (if too cautious) and a couple of his famous runs. He can't cross it properly, though atm.

His form was generally terrible till the last 5/6 games, since then he's been decent. A good platform to rebuild your confidence.
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He played with some purpose today, I think that much is pretty evident compared to his last few outings. His crossing was still shit, but his confidence seemed to have increased and he contributed to some of our link up play and attacks.

Rather Baines is overrated or not doesn't matter. At least he's taking on his man again.
 
Thought he was better today. Maybe the start of him coming back into form.
 
His whole demeanor was better today. Not that it translated to a quality performance, but there was something more encouraging on display.
 
Yep looked more up for it today. Great leap and thought of where to put the header to led to the first.
 
Not offering anywhere close to what he's capable of in attack, but he was good as a defensive cover today.
 
He is still very frustrating to watch at the moment. He is very good keeping the ball and allows us that outlet from the back as he is so hard to push of the ball. Yet come the final third he is still to slow in making decisions and generally not very effective still.

I'd likely play him still against Madrid just for the defensive side/outlet that he gives the team.
 
Cina said:
So you don't care what a winger does offensively, more about what a winger does defensively? Right.

He played pretty well today, end product is still non existent but it'll come.
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i didn't say "a winger"...i said valencia. he's a scrappy player. when you hear his name in the line-up do you think goals and assists? do you think "fergie must be going for the jugular today"? i certainly don't. i think that more when nani and young are on the pitch. when he's on the pitch i expect to see what we always see from him. he's painfully one-legged, has one move (to the right), doesn't take people on often. he's got speed and toughness though, a good defender, he'll pressure people, get a steal and maybe start an attack, he gets the odd goal now and then and has had a couple of good years in the assist department = "icing on the cake." i had no problem with his game today. i seldom do.
 
Decent performance defensively but not much attacking wise.

He has lost his pace somehow. And without it, he doesn't have much ability.

Where the feck did the Valencia of last season go?
 
Cold_Boy said:
Decent performance defensively but not much attacking wise.

He has lost his pace somehow. And without it, he doesn't have much ability.

Where the feck did the Valencia of last season go?
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When exactly did he lose his pace? Remember his sprint against Liverpool THIS season? That's the fastest I've seen him run, or any other player since Giggs' younger days. I think it has more to do with confidence - he could have reached the ball where he sprinted against Jagielka (who had a much shorter space to cover), but he backed down - maybe afraid to get injured?
 
gbgary said:
i didn't say "a winger"...i said valencia. he's a scrappy player. when you hear his name in the line-up do you think goals and assists? do you think "fergie must be going for the jugular today"? i certainly don't. i think that more when nani and young are on the pitch. when he's on the pitch i expect to see what we always see from him. he's painfully one-legged, has one move (to the right), doesn't take people on often. he's got speed and toughness though, a good defender, he'll pressure people, get a steal and maybe start an attack, he gets the odd goal now and then and has had a couple of good years in the assist department = "icing on the cake." i had no problem with his game today. i seldom do.
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It's a strange way of looking at things. You're basically saying that Valencia, who does play as a winger (so you are talking about a winger), one of the most important parts of the pitch for us in terms of creating changes, doesn't need to actually create or make anything happen.

What the feck is the point of that? We just want two right backs defending instead? The Valencia of old (ie last season) was far more than just this solid defensive winger who doesn't really create anything, you need only look at his productivity to see that.

I don't know about you but I expect a winger (which is what he is) at our club to actually make things happen!
 
gbgary said:
i didn't say "a winger"...i said valencia. he's a scrappy player. when you hear his name in the line-up do you think goals and assists? do you think "fergie must be going for the jugular today"? i certainly don't. i think that more when nani and young are on the pitch. when he's on the pitch i expect to see what we always see from him. he's painfully one-legged, has one move (to the right), doesn't take people on often. he's got speed and toughness though, a good defender, he'll pressure people, get a steal and maybe start an attack, he gets the odd goal now and then and has had a couple of good years in the assist department = "icing on the cake." i had no problem with his game today. i seldom do.
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That's proper weird stuff. First off, Valencia is a winger, so of course he needs to contribute to attack. Erm...Yes? He has been devestating for us on the wings before this seasons, which is by far his worst one as of yet, it's like you've completely forgotten what we would consistently get from him. In the league alone last season he created or scored just under 20 goals, that's hardly the mark of someone who isn't expected to produce in attack.
 
I think that it was his best performance in a long time. Still not at his level but he was pretty good and I think that he will start in Madrid.
 
He still did his 270 degree turn inside a few times. It winds me up even more than a Robbie Keane celebration.
 
Cina said:
You're basically saying that Valencia doesn't need to actually create or make anything happen.

I don't know about you but I expect a winger (which is what he is) at our club to actually make things happen!
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i'm not saying he doesn't need to do those things. i'm saying, bar last season, that he just doesn't seem able to do those things consistently. what he does do consistently are the things i mentioned. so when he's in the line-up i lower my expectations from what i'd expect if a more offensive minded/skilled player were in there...that's all. i'm not disappointed by his game because i know what he does best. if he does more...great.
 
Rossa said:
When exactly did he lose his pace? Remember his sprint against Liverpool THIS season? That's the fastest I've seen him run, or any other player since Giggs' younger days. I think it has more to do with confidence - he could have reached the ball where he sprinted against Jagielka (who had a much shorter space to cover), but he backed down - maybe afraid to get injured?
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Last season he used to always run faster than the defender and take on the man.

This season he doesn't do that. Yeah maybe a couple of times he has but compared to last season there is a massive contrast. Everytime now, he just stops for a billion minutes to decide what to do.
 
Some strange posts in here regarding the role of a winger, at any rate I fully expect him to start against Madrid on Wednesday and in truth his defensive attributes will be the main reason and could be vital as Ronaldo plays a lot from the left for Real.
 
We'll need him for the game. He will be an important player to tackle the threat posed by Ronaldo. Rafael and Valencia will need to bring their A game.
 
gbgary said:
i'm not saying he doesn't need to do those things. i'm saying, bar last season, that he just doesn't seem able to do those things consistently. what he does do consistently are the things i mentioned. so when he's in the line-up i lower my expectations from what i'd expect if a more offensive minded/skilled player were in there...that's all. i'm not disappointed by his game because i know what he does best. if he does more...great.
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but that's smply not true, he's always had end product, always. He was always great at finding a yard on his man and putting in consistently good crosses. It's only this season that's gone to shit, and I mean total utter shit. His crossing has really gotten god awful, I don't think he even tries to find his man anymore, more so smack the defender as hard as he can and get a corner.

I just can't fathom that you are happy that a winger at our club, a club that's prided itself on our great wingers throughout the years, especially under SAF (Beckham, Giggs, Ronaldo, Kanchelskis etc) just does his job defensively and maybe, the odd time might do something attacking wise. Frankly it makes no sense.
 
This might be harsh, but we need to see more consistency. You just don't know what type of delivery you going to get. I would prefer to see the TonyV of old, running at pace and taking the player on, shooting, putting the ball into a dangerous position.

I hope that he finds his form soon.
 
Cina said:
I just can't fathom that you are happy that a winger at our club, a club that's prided itself on our great wingers throughout the years, especially under SAF (Beckham, Giggs, Ronaldo, Kanchelskis etc) just does his job defensively and maybe, the odd time might do something attacking wise. Frankly it makes no sense.
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as I said it's only because of the other things he does so well. they make up for what he's lacking. if you notice our attack/scoring has been fine even with him in his current state. it would be great if he was the same as last year but that's not the reality. if the other parts of his game were shit then i'd want his head. most everyone in this thread wants him in the line up against real...and it's because of the job they think he'll do helping to control ronaldo...not because they think he'll turn into Beckham. I believe SA feels the same way and that he'll be in there.
 
I can also see Valencia-Rafael on the right coupled with Rooney-Evra on the left in order to nullify Ronaldo's threat. Both Valencia and Rooney really need to be at their defensive best first and foremost. Need to run more and no day-dreaming for a single second, especially after one our rare attacks just been broken up. Negative tactics? No, it's being realistic.
 
Cina said:
but that's smply not true, he's always had end product, always. He was always great at finding a yard on his man and putting in consistently good crosses. It's only this season that's gone to shit, and I mean total utter shit. His crossing has really gotten god awful, I don't think he even tries to find his man anymore, more so smack the defender as hard as he can and get a corner.

I just can't fathom that you are happy that a winger at our club, a club that's prided itself on our great wingers throughout the years, especially under SAF (Beckham, Giggs, Ronaldo, Kanchelskis etc) just does his job defensively and maybe, the odd time might do something attacking wise. Frankly it makes no sense.
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I agree with this part in particular, something I've realized with loads of people recently. Wingers are meant to be attacking. Shouldn't it make sense to pick them primarily on their attacking contribution? People are making it sound like Valencia is the best defensive winger in the world and is amazing defensively on his own, which is simply not true. Like all wingers, he's a bit shit defensively, because well that's not their main job now is it?

Also when picking who to start vs Madrid, they want a horridly out of form Valencia, who has contributed nothing to our attack all season, to start ahead of Nani who in his 2 or 3 games back from injury has made more chances than Valencia made all season. All because some false perception that Valencia is amazing defensively. Sure he works hard is physically a beast. Doesn't mean he is good defensively. People also make is sound like Nani just sits up at half waiting for the ball to come to him. He might not be as good defensively but he puts a shift in and it doesn't end up being too much of a difference because neither are defenders.

I'm not like a Valencia hater or something, and if he was anywhere near last seasons form he would have been an automatic starter, but the reality is, that since the end of last season, he has been (on the most part) useless for our overall play and offered nothing more then shape for our actual formation. Rafael, our right back has been much better offensively then him as well, which really shouldn't be happening, no matter how good he's been this year.
 
bosnian_red said:
I agree with this part in particular, something I've realized with loads of people recently. Wingers are meant to be attacking. Shouldn't it make sense to pick them primarily on their attacking contribution? People are making it sound like Valencia is the best defensive winger in the world and is amazing defensively on his own, which is simply not true. Like all wingers, he's a bit shit defensively, because well that's not their main job now is it?

Also when picking who to start vs Madrid, they want a horridly out of form Valencia, who has contributed nothing to our attack all season, to start ahead of Nani who in his 2 or 3 games back from injury has made more chances than Valencia made all season. All because some false perception that Valencia is amazing defensively. Sure he works hard is physically a beast. Doesn't mean he is good defensively. People also make is sound like Nani just sits up at half waiting for the ball to come to him. He might not be as good defensively but he puts a shift in and it doesn't end up being too much of a difference because neither are defenders.

I'm not like a Valencia hater or something, and if he was anywhere near last seasons form he would have been an automatic starter, but the reality is, that since the end of last season, he has been (on the most part) useless for our overall play and offered nothing more then shape for our actual formation. Rafael, our right back has been much better offensively then him as well, which really shouldn't be happening, no matter how good he's been this year.
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For all your arguments here, Valencia is a terrific defender for a winger, and a fairly decent left back because of his strength and pace - Rafael has said as much that he likes playing behind him because he offers a lot of protection. That said, Nani also has the speed to make things difficult for Ronaldo and Coentrao, and as you say, Nani does track back - he's not as good at blocking and tackling though.
 
I'll be disappointed if Valencia starts this evening, which he probably will. He doesn't deserve to and it basically means we're going to adapt a very defensive approach on the game.
 
I don't see why we shouldn't go with a slightly defensive approach. It's an away game against a solid top class opposition. I'm not talking about going into a 'park the bus' type of defensive game a la Chelsea, but having attackers/midfielders who will put in a good defensive shift will be good. That's why I think Valencia (help with Marcelo/Ronaldo) and Jones (man-mark Ozil) should start. We can have more offensive play when they come to Old Trafford.
 
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