You'd struggle to see me slate Valenia throughout the season. But then I don't make my mind up on how he's performed based on he is or before the game started. There's a mob mentality on here and people actively look for things to whine about. Referencing the match day forum is the worst thing you can do. It's full of cretins.
25
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 35
- Clean sheets
- 12
- Goals
- 0
- Assists
- 5
- Yellow cards
- 4
I think we've seen enough evidence in his games against us alone to see that he can defend and be part of a unit. Even this season we got no joy against him
A pretty poor unit if we look at more than two games.
yep that's true. The fans look to mob one our players based on...you know...just for the heck of it. Nothing about actual performances...that's just a coincidence.
He had a very poor spell as a winger and people can't look past it and admit when he's played well. His worth is shown in the fact managers keep playing him. I'll take that above his average rating on Redcafe.yep that's true. The fans look to mob one our players based on...you know...just for the heck of it. Nothing about actual performances...that's just a coincidence.
@Santiago_KinderBueno
You make many interesting points about our full backs in van Gaal's current system. What really caught my eye is how they're supposed to be more central rather than wide in their attacking approach. It reminds me of the 1990's Ajax team under van Gaal who had centrally-oriented full backs in Reiziger and Frank de Boer with Rijkaard stepping up to support the attack and Davids + Seedorf drifting out to the channels to stretch teams and support Finidi and Overmars.
The thing about that Ajax setup, though is that it had a libero stepping up, two box-to-box midfielders, and one #10 in the midfield. This is a setup that van Gaal hasn't replicated since then. In the 21st century, van Gaal changed his system with inside wingers and wing backs becoming more prominent. With Bayern, we've seen him play a 4-2-3-1, regularly playing an attacking full back like Lahm on the right side and bringing up Contento in order to move back Badstuber to central defence. When van Gaal was playing the 4-2-3-1 with the Netherlands, he had two attacking full backs. With us, he played a back 3 and encouraged the wing backs to really bomb forward and provide the width, and he continued that on with our backwards-pointing 4-3-3 in which Blind and Valencia both overlapped the wide players.
This is not to say that he prefers attacking wing backs to play the full back roles. He has still set up his full backs such that his system is not compromised, and it's the most balanced approach that he's set up for his full backs (which further highlight's van Gaal's tactical nous and creativity). As you see in most teams nowadays, once they have the ball, the full backs push up to become wingers quite quickly. To support them, the central defenders push out wide, and the defensive midfielder drops back to make a back 3. Ahead of him are attacking midfielders/inverted wingers and one attacking midfielder and one box-to-box midfielder to supply the ball to, who will move the ball forward and supply players in the final third.
What van Gaal does, however, is completely different. He doesn't have his full backs push up with a defensive midfielder dropping back. He has his defensive midfielder remain ahead of his central defence whilst the full backs stay back. As you said, we aim to build up centrally through the central defenders and defensive midfielder, spreading out the team as we advance forward and utilising the wingers as a result. If we have a destroyer and box-to-box midfielder in a 4-2-3-1 (van Bommel-Schweini, de Jong-Strootman, or Schneidi-Herrera?), he will have the box-to-box midfielder carry the ball forward with the destroyer providing support in the build-up. If we go with a backwards-pointing 4-3-3 or the Ajax 4-3-3, he'll have the defensive midfielder/libero (Carrick or Rijkaard) dictate the build-up.
Full backs in van Gaal's setup are very important in the build up of attacks. They are key in helping the team maintain possession and move the ball forward through the middle. van Gaal doesn't want them to be adventurous wing backs and break the lines regularly like Alves, Zabaleta, Coleman, Alba, etc. He wants them to provide support to the central defenders and midfielders during the build-up. The full backs are key in overloading the wide areas and creating spaces through the middle. Such players are expected to be very good in retaining possession and playing midfielders into space in the middle. We saw this happen many times with McNair, Blind, and Valencia whilst Shaw is still adapting to this. Having said this, in adapting his system, van Gaal also wants his full backs to provide the width higher up the pitch when the wingers go inside. We saw this many times with Blind going forward to support Young, Rafael on the right when we played with the diamond, Valencia on the right when Mata drifted inside, and Shaw bombing forward from the left. It's not the first time he did this either; he did this before with Lahm and Contento at Bayern Munich, and Janmaat/van Rhijn and Willems for the Netherlands.
As a result, don't expect him to remain with his old-school approach; I'm sure that he won't mind using an attacking full back as long as he shows discipline in his approach and doesn't bomb forward/break the lines too soon.
You make many interesting points about our full backs in van Gaal's current system. What really caught my eye is how they're supposed to be more central rather than wide in their attacking approach. It reminds me of the 1990's Ajax team under van Gaal who had centrally-oriented full backs in Reiziger and Frank de Boer with Rijkaard stepping up to support the attack and Davids + Seedorf drifting out to the channels to stretch teams and support Finidi and Overmars.
The thing about that Ajax setup, though is that it had a libero stepping up, two box-to-box midfielders, and one #10 in the midfield. This is a setup that van Gaal hasn't replicated since then. In the 21st century, van Gaal changed his system with inside wingers and wing backs becoming more prominent. With Bayern, we've seen him play a 4-2-3-1, regularly playing an attacking full back like Lahm on the right side and bringing up Contento in order to move back Badstuber to central defence. When van Gaal was playing the 4-2-3-1 with the Netherlands, he had two attacking full backs. With us, he played a back 3 and encouraged the wing backs to really bomb forward and provide the width, and he continued that on with our backwards-pointing 4-3-3 in which Blind and Valencia both overlapped the wide players.
This is not to say that he prefers attacking wing backs to play the full back roles. He has still set up his full backs such that his system is not compromised, and it's the most balanced approach that he's set up for his full backs (which further highlight's van Gaal's tactical nous and creativity). As you see in most teams nowadays, once they have the ball, the full backs push up to become wingers quite quickly. To support them, the central defenders push out wide, and the defensive midfielder drops back to make a back 3. Ahead of him are attacking midfielders/inverted wingers and one attacking midfielder and one box-to-box midfielder to supply the ball to, who will move the ball forward and supply players in the final third.
What van Gaal does, however, is completely different. He doesn't have his full backs push up with a defensive midfielder dropping back. He has his defensive midfielder remain ahead of his central defence whilst the full backs stay back. As you said, we aim to build up centrally through the central defenders and defensive midfielder, spreading out the team as we advance forward and utilising the wingers as a result. If we have a destroyer and box-to-box midfielder in a 4-2-3-1 (van Bommel-Schweini, de Jong-Strootman, or Schneidi-Herrera?), he will have the box-to-box midfielder carry the ball forward with the destroyer providing support in the build-up. If we go with a backwards-pointing 4-3-3 or the Ajax 4-3-3, he'll have the defensive midfielder/libero (Carrick or Rijkaard) dictate the build-up.
Full backs in van Gaal's setup are very important in the build up of attacks. They are key in helping the team maintain possession and move the ball forward through the middle. van Gaal doesn't want them to be adventurous wing backs and break the lines regularly like Alves, Zabaleta, Coleman, Alba, etc. He wants them to provide support to the central defenders and midfielders during the build-up. The full backs are key in overloading the wide areas and creating spaces through the middle. Such players are expected to be very good in retaining possession and playing midfielders into space in the middle. We saw this happen many times with McNair, Blind, and Valencia whilst Shaw is still adapting to this. Having said this, in adapting his system, van Gaal also wants his full backs to provide the width higher up the pitch when the wingers go inside. We saw this many times with Blind going forward to support Young, Rafael on the right when we played with the diamond, Valencia on the right when Mata drifted inside, and Shaw bombing forward from the left. It's not the first time he did this either; he did this before with Lahm and Contento at Bayern Munich, and Janmaat/van Rhijn and Willems for the Netherlands.
As a result, don't expect him to remain with his old-school approach; I'm sure that he won't mind using an attacking full back as long as he shows discipline in his approach and doesn't bomb forward/break the lines too soon.
Fantastic points. As you said the wide wing backs is not out the question but the important factor is fullbacks who can play through the middle. Full backs everywhere around the world play a similar approach as to not concern me about hitting the width's of the field because it is a fundamental aspects to the their game. For most teams the fullbacks are normally used as 'ping-pong' players out widte where they are used to pass the ball and move on acclimatizing to the width that creates.
I agree with all your points but let's not forget that he has to adapt his system to suit the english game which is still heavily reliant on physicality & physicality is normally based in midfield not the wings. That is why if I had to disagree with you on one thing is that our full backs are supposed to attack centrally. In fact my view is that they have to defend centrally and attack in to space.
Firstly; Imagine Valencia on the right hand side hugging the touch line; he has at most the ability to pass to Herrera, Smalling, or Di Maria.
Now a centrally positioned Valencia can influence the game by having the possibility to pass to Smalling, Carrick, 2 box to box players, Rooney and also Di Maria. If we defend narrow it forces the opposition to acclimatize around the middle whenever we retain possesion. One of our main problems last year was that teams would just wait and park the bus; this can be easily solved by forcing them to cover the areas we want them to be in; and if they park the bus through the middle, it will create more space on the wings for our full backs and wingers to manipulate.
Furthermore, if you view our fullbacks as Wide defensive midfielders then it becomes apparent why van gaal insists on Right footed CB's on the right and Left footed Cb's on the left.
For example, Hazard is attaking down the left, Valencia is the closest DM to him and follows him all the way until the ball stops rolling. When Hazard has the ball on the left; there is absolute no reason for any of our defenders be that DM's or CB's to approach Hazard other than the one closest to him. Smalling the RCB becomes an inverted RB due to Valencia Man Marking Hazard, allowing Carrick space to fall back in to defence. That means we never lose shape.
-Valencia (on Hazard)
Blind-Rojo-Carrick-Smalling
Likewise let's say Willian has the ball on the Right, Carrick or Valencia really should not be bothered because that is Blind's duty as he is the nearest defensive midfielder. Rojo Covers for him as an inverted LB, Carrick drops in to defence & again we dont lose shape.
Blind (on Willian)
Rojo-Carrick-Smalling-Valencia
To be fair, that's a whole point higher than your average team rating.
Louis van Gaal isn't planning on signing McNair from the market, he is looking to promote youth. There is a difference between scouting a player and watching him train, the manager's record with young players is actually very good.
And also
http://www.espnfc.co.uk/story/887670/louis-van-gaal-declares-neuer-interest
Whether he did or did not want Neuer I don't know, things were complicated politically when Louis van Gaal promoted Kraft to first choice because they were going to sign Neuer from bundesliga rivals Schalke and some fans were unhappy with that initially. I don't think it was ever a case of Louis van Gaal thinking Neuer wasn't good enough.
And I suppose Berbatov was better than Tevez thats why we bought the former and replaced latter in the lineup, despite all the evidence that says otherwise in the coming years
Is this the same Berbatov that Fergie had no hesitation dropping for most of his last season at United?
With Valencia it's not even just one manager who's had a soft spot for him. Three different managers have consistently picked him ahead of caf favourites but redcafe knows best, right?
By one manager. If three had done likewise then the comparison may be worth something. As it was comparing a player we owned against one on loan seems beyond pointless.
Multiple managers used Gerrard and Lampard together in midfield
They did. Most being afraid not to for the media reaction most likely. Is there a similar reason for these different managers picking Valencia regularly?
For Moyes, probably. Sir Alex did it
So the other two?
They made a mistake like everyone else?
Sir Alex also used Park in CM among other things, I dont think we can pretend managers never get it wrong
We can't but when three successive managers continually pick a player it's fair to assume that there's a reason for it.
LvG hasn't had much of a choice so far
Could easily have tried to replace him last summer. Or played Rafael when he was fit. Or play McNair if he was as bad as people make out.
His intention was to play Rafael and have Tony V as a backup in the summer, it seems. A 19 year old centre back isnt really a viable choice.
The last I checked the calendar we were in 2015
Valencia is physically a beast, he's rarely injured and I suspect he consistently performs well statistically too. That combination will see you get picked regularly by most PL managers, I'd have thought.
IMO valencia is playing RB as the best RB at the club,period. Rafael is the best RB at the club if we had any other manager in charge; however how strict instructions are followed are the epitome of van gaals approach to management.
IMO, van gaal is grooming Mcnair up to be our long term RB and as such the only RB to ever provide the stability and instructional techniques was dani alves.
People think that fullbacks can only be one type of player; pace, crossing ability etc.
If ivanovic can play RB for the best club in england last year then i dont see why Mcnair could not play there.
Mcnair is a CB/CDM. How many times have we seen Mcnair dribble from CB all the way up to midfield?
Thats not what central defenders do and this type of attacking qualities can be utilised in a full back position. The problem is alot of our fans expect to see fullbacks who hug the touchline but how exactly is that possible when we play so narrow in the first place?
IMO, van gaal is grooming Mcnair up to be our long term RB and as such the only RB to ever provide the stability and instructional techniques was dani alves.
People think that fullbacks can only be one type of player; pace, crossing ability etc.
If ivanovic can play RB for the best club in england last year then i dont see why Mcnair could not play there.
Mcnair is a CB/CDM. How many times have we seen Mcnair dribble from CB all the way up to midfield?
Thats not what central defenders do and this type of attacking qualities can be utilised in a full back position. The problem is alot of our fans expect to see fullbacks who hug the touchline but how exactly is that possible when we play so narrow in the first place?
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Rafael was available for a decent chunk of last season but remained behind Valencia in the pecking order. Jones could have been picked ahead of him too. But wasn't. Van Gaal wasn't 'forced' to pick Valencia at all.
Yeah, but it is not as if we have been breath taking in those seasons. We won the title once, finished fourth and finished 7th. Not blaming it only on Valencia but that is hardly a glowing recommendation. So the managers have been doing something wrong the last two seasons that we have been this abysmal.
Of course but it still points to a player who obviously is capable of doing something right. Which if you were to believe some of the posts in here would be hard to fathom.
I doubt anyone believes that a professional international footballer cannot do anything right. Many people are simply pointing out that he is not good enough for the club, which is not outrageous by any count. Just because managers play him does not make him a good enough player for us, considering where we have finished those seasons.
Um... You know we won the league when a hell of lot of people on here were pissing and moaning about Valencia holding onto the right wing slot? If you're going to use the logic of league position reflecting individual contributions it also works against you.
Basically, Valencia has constantly been picked in our best XI ever since he joined the club. Under three different managers. Including some extremely succesful seasons. But he's "not good enough for the club". Gotcha...
Jones is shit at RB (and we weren't exactly spoilt for choice at CB either). As uncomfortable as I am with Tony V there on a regular basis I prefer him to Jones. I think with Rafael he'd decided he's too injury prone to bother with. Put it this way- I dont rate Valencia as a RB at all but I'd have played hi there last season if I was lvg.
You don't not play an injury prone player if he isn't actually injured and is better than the player currently playing his position, just because he's injury prone. At least that's not anything I can remember any manager ever doing before. It would be madness.
Didn't wanna risk throwing a player back on after a lengthy layoff probably. It's also worth considering that he wanted minimal disruption to the starting lineup - especially as Rafael would likely end up crocked a few weeks after coming back in. I don't believe that van Gaal genuinely sees Valencia as a better right back than Rafael, more that he made his mind up that Rafael had to go after his umpteenth injury.
Yeah Pogue, because players can never deteriorate and are always playing like they used to. Valencia started off as a winger for us. He has been so diabolical there for a good three years that he has been converted to a RB now. He does a decent job there and I will be the first to admit it, but I merely pointed out our league positions because many people keep drumming about him being selected continuously. We have ranged from decent to atrocious these last two seasons when he has been god awful. I never claimed he was not a very good winger in his prime (which is what you are pointing out when you say he has been part of successful seasons) but he has gone massively downhill since and as things stand he is not good enough for a starting position in our team if we want to reach the heights of earlier.
Valencia had been tremendous until everyone started to understand his trick (ie go deep and cross the ball). Afterwards he became less and less effective. TBF He's the worst right winger SAF had ever had
Valencia has basically played as RWB since the start of last season. Initially in a 5-3-2 and then in a 4-3-3 behind Mata. He's the only player we have who can do it. Rafael is too lightweight. Hell, if Di Maria needs to be replaced by Fellaini as a central midfielder in the PL, so does Rafa as a RWB.
Valencia is a player who can build up the right on his own by shielding the ball with his (sizeable) body, whereas Rafael is more of a give-and-go passer of the ball. That's the difference between the two. Unless LvG can find another right back who can run the flank without support, expect to see Valencia starting next season as our first choice.
To be fair, Coleman probably can.
Valencia is a player who can build up the right on his own by shielding the ball with his (sizeable) body, whereas Rafael is more of a give-and-go passer of the ball. That's the difference between the two. Unless LvG can find another right back who can run the flank without support, expect to see Valencia starting next season as our first choice.
To be fair, Coleman probably can.
Yep. Near ipossible to run faster than and near impossible to bully off the ball. Other than Zaha, I can't think of many wingers who gave him the run around (and even Ivanovic had problems against Palace).
That's like saying "count me out of this discussion because I cannot be objective about this".
Valencia's a good squad player. He's a tryer. Has some solid games, some games that even surprise you and make you go "well that's quite good actually", and in between a good bunch of them that make you wonder how he's there in the first place. I exaggerate but yeah he's not the standard of right back for a club like Manchester United. Some might say he isn't even a right back given the way he can completely switch off into dreams of his majestic winger days while not actually playing there. But I'd keep him, as long as it's just not him, because just Valencia, isn't really good enough.
He was never picked as a RB under SAF, the pecknig order was Rafael > Jones/Smalling > Val/Fletcher.
It started under Moyes as a trend to sub Rafael off and send Valencia back and almost every time we did that we both played worse going forward and also conceded many more chances.
LvG has consistently picked Valencia at RB. I'm not very sure about his reading of defenders (I remember Badstuber, ironically, against Valencia, and Nani derstroying Lahm from the other side while a half-fit Rooney could keep their CBs off balance)
For SAF and Moyes, Val > Nani; for LvG, Val > Rafael.
For what it's worth, I think both decisions are wrong.
Whatever position he played, he's been in the starting XI when fit for almost every single game of his United career. Not something you can say about many of our squad over that time. A period that included a number of trophies. Yet he's the one being singled out in this thread as "not good enough for United". Go figure.
Of course he's good enough Pogue but the haters are going to hate! There are things Valencia can improve on no doubt but I've yet to see him being torn apart by anyone at full back. Plus he is a better and more reliable option than Rafael imo who switched of constantly whilst defending the back post. If we are going to replace him then the guy coming in will have to be top class or Valencia will just reclaim the jersey. If he ups his crossing levels and confidence is high he is a great asset to any team.