[Sir A1ex]

I still suspect Giggs may have had an impact on Rafael's position in the squad, because van Gaal has continued to play all our other injury prone defenders.

Is there a reason to think Giggs is particularly anti-Rafael then?

Also, wasn't there talk of a player sending around a video of a woman performing a sexual act on himself within the dressing room?

If it's the one I'm thinking of it was other players secretly filming a player doing sex stuff in a nightclub toilet, and sending it round. But yeah, not to say he wasn't involved, either as the sexed one or the voyer camera-man / distibrutor.

 

[Sir A1ex]

What I noticed yesterday is that Smalling and Jones werent exactly running like mad men after they saw that backpass cause they thought DDG will deal with it and when they saw he wont they started running more quickly but it was too late. If they started running to cover the goal right away or close Welbeck maybe they could have deal with it.

That's kind of natural though. When a team-mate plays a straight forward backpass to the keeper, your instinct isn't and shouldn't be to charge after it at full pelt. It was only as they realised how badly he'd hit it that they started to sprint back.

 

[sdb4884]

Rafael better start against Spurs.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Is there a reason to think Giggs is particularly anti-Rafael then?

No real reasoning, just that Giggs has worked with Rafael for many years and he would know all about his injury problems. We haven't seen Smalling, Jones or Evans frozen out by van Gaal, even though they're equally as frustrating with their injuries. I dunno why Rafael's been treated any differently to them.

 

[Sir A1ex]

Rafael better start against Spurs.

He wont.

 

[sdb4884]

He wont.

Yeah i'm sure Val will get a chance to redeem himself but when push comes to shove against another top quality side he'll get found out again. Same with Evans & Jones.

 

[Mali_Zeus]

That's kind of natural though. When a team-mate plays a straight forward backpass to the keeper, your instinct isn't and shouldn't be to charge after it at full pelt. It was only as they realised how badly he'd hit it that they started to sprint back.

Yeah but if you see a forward getting that backpass and running to your goal then you should charge at full pelt. That's what I meant.

 

[steve zizou]

I thought he had a decent game. Dealt with Sanchez reasonably well. The first goal wasnt entirely his fault either. Sanchez was running free so he followed his man. Although this meant he was out of position, he was still covering for 1 of the CB. The fault is more of Di Maria who should've covered the space vacated by Valencia but stood there ball watching.
2nd goal was just an underhit back pass. We've seen that happen to even world class defenders.

 

[R'hllor]

A winger playing a RB + no help from Di Maria whole freaking game,constant left 1v1 and people go full out at him? For those who might come out and say how we had Rafael on the bench,he would not last 60 minute without being sent off in same scenario.

 

[Mali_Zeus]

A winger playing a RB + no help from Di Maria whole freaking game,constant left 1v1 and people go full out at him? For those who might come out and say how we had Rafael on the bench,he would not last 60 minute without being sent off in same scenario.

Are we still doing this Rafael is too rash stuff?

 

[Di Maria's angel]

I think Jones deserves as much as the blame for the 2nd goal as Valencia. There was no reason for Jones to chest the ball down to Valencia in that situation. Head it away and the danger is gone. Instead, he chests it down to Valencia to restart the Jones - Smalling - Blind - De Gea passing loop.

 

[Minimalist]

Despite his two errors for the goals, I actually thought his effort and general play was spot on. Real shame about the errors.

 

[R'hllor]

Are we still doing this Rafael is too rash stuff?

Last night it was hot and he is hot headed even he sleeps.For real tho,i think that he would not last whole game,thats my opinion, and no i am not doing Rafa is too rash stuff,its just my opinion.

 

[Mali_Zeus]

Last night it was hot and he is hot headed even he sleeps.For real tho,i think that he would not last whole game,thats my opinion, and no i am not doing Rafa is too rash stuff,its just my opinion.

That's not the case anymore.

 

[Kag]

Cant really hold him responsible entirely. He is a winger not a defender. More the manager's fault for playing him there.

He's a right back now, and has defended like a good one until last night. He isn't a winger anymore. If he is then he'll sharp find himself lower down the food chain and considerably so.

This is all spot on. Horrendous error but overall a decent display. Especially considering he was a one man defence against Arsenal's best player, thanks to the half-arsed display by our right winger. Don't think Sanchez managed to dribble him once. Not many PL fullbacks can say that.

He showed Sanchez onto his right foot incessantly. It doesn't matter a jot how often he got beat one vs one. He was wildly out of position for most of the match and gave Sanchez plenty of joy.

 

[R'hllor]

That's not the case anymore.

Well,he does not get games to prove any views,hope you are right for his sake.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

LVG taking stick but that's man management. So why people give him stick i'll never know. If Valencia is fine he won't be dropped. I don't think LVG will want to kick a man when he's down.

He didn't appear to have such qualms following the Leicester match, whereupon he proceeded to blame Rafael for the Vardy dive. He has also singled out other players publicly, McNair and Blackett being but two of these.

 

[Waldner]

Antonio Valencia, seen here hugely under pressure with no immediate options:

Thank you for taking the time out to respond to a post in a semi-constructive way.

Right. As soon as Jones chests it to Valencia, you can see Sanchez smell blood and close him down. It's not like he was miles away from him when he chests it to him as well. He had Sanchez reasonably close to him who immediately sprints to pressure him when the chest pass is made. The pass is then crucially underhit from Valencia whilst he was under pressure from a sprinting Sanchez. All of that makes the chest pass the key mistake there. Yes, the backpass was a poor one, but it wasn't the first mistake made in the chain of errors. If Jones doesn't attempt that pass (there were probably about 3/4 other options he has there) then Val doesn't mess up the pass. So for me, that's the crucial mistake.

If you could refrain from making personal judgments about other caf members, I'd like to point out that I've already explained why your views on this incident are mental.

You chose to blame somebody who made possibly the wrong decision (but nothing worse than happened all over the pitch all evening and far from catastrophic) ahead of somebody who made a monumental cock-up that cost us the match. And then, to compound the weirdness, you accuse other people of blaming the player who made the minor mistake. It's really all quite strange.

As someone else said on this thread recently, even the best defenders in the world make that kind of error when under pressure from a sprinting defender. It's hardly the rarest or stupidest of mistakes, you see them at least a good few times a season. But it's more constructive to look at why Valencia even had to play that pass, as in why he was even under pressure in the first place, than to simply blame him for making the mistake outright.

Just to be clear, this is allowed, yeah?

I don't see your point here. Also, 3/4 other people have now echoed my thoughts RE. Jones since I made my first post in here. Strange how you and @iBoss don't pick them up on it though, isn't it...

 

[Sir A1ex]

It's not like he was miles away from him when he chests it to him as well.

He is though. The rest of your post may make sense if he was under genuine pressure, but by the time the ball is half way to him, Sanchez is only just entering the frame. In the final image, Valencia has already played the ball, and still Sanchez 3 or 4 metres away. I'm not even convinced Valencia was particularly aware he was there!

Yes, we see this happen a few times a season, I'm not trying to make out this is unprecedented in it's shiteness. But (unless there actually is genuine pressure on the player) it is always the fault of the man who plays the atrocious back-pass, not the guy who gave it to him.

 

[Waldner]

He is though. The rest of your post may make sense if he was under genuine pressure, but by the time the ball is half way to him, Sanchez is only just entering the frame. In the final image, Valencia has already played the ball, and still Sanchez 3 or 4 metres away. I'm not even convinced Valencia was particularly aware he was there!

Yes, we see this happen a few times a season, I'm not trying to make out this is unprecedented in it's shiteness. But (unless there actually is genuine pressure on the player) it is always the fault of the man who plays the atrocious back-pass, not the guy who gave it to him.

That's still not far. 3 metres is nothing when you've got a professional footballer sprinting at you. It's what, 2/3 strides? Valencia probably didn't expect Jones to come to such a stupid decision and wasn't mentally prepared to deal with the ball when it came to him. Mistake from him, granted, but the fact still remains that if Jones hadn't attempted that play, Valencia wouldn't have needed to attempt the backpass.

 

[darko]

Rafael better start against Spurs.

With DiMaria out, it would give LVG the opportunity to move Valencia up and play Rafael. But my instinct tells me DiMaria will be replaced straight up with Januzaj.

 

[darko]

Since reading these comments, I took a look at the replay again and again and again. Sure Valencia's pass was poor, but what was Phil Jones thinking? Sometimes you just need to hoof the ball out of danger. Jones's other option was to play the ball out to right wing.

As bad as this was, it could have been worse. What if DDG brought down Welbeck and was red carded? Sure Arsenal would only get a free kick but United would be without their saviour for three league matches.

 

[Varun]

Mistake from him, granted, but the fact still remains that if Jones hadn't attempted that play, Valencia wouldn't have needed to attempt the backpass.

You can go back and reach the ref blowing the whistle to kick off the game this way. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the pass, we now have a manager that wants players to play the ball rather than punting them long. The back pass was atrocious, there's no defending that.

 

[Waldner]

You can go back and reach the ref blowing the whistle to kick off the game this way. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the pass, we now have a manager that wants players to play the ball rather than punting them long. The back pass was atrocious, there's no defending that.

Well, you could, if you wanted to be pedantic. Or you could instead approach the issue sensibly and realise that Jones had 3/4 different/better options to deal with that high ball than chesting it down to Valencia. People in this thread can choose to be narrow-minded, look at the back pass and say 'That's it, that's the only problem here' or they can be forward thinking, think a little bit constructively along the lines of 'Ok Valencia fecked up, but why was he put into that position? Why has he been given the ball there?'. Suddenly you see things in a different light.

It's very, very easy to blame Valencia and then close the case.

 

[Varun]

Well, you could, if you wanted to be pedantic. Or you could instead approach the issue sensibly and realise that Jones had 3/4 different/better options to deal with that high ball than chesting it down to Valencia. People in this thread can choose to be narrow-minded, look at the back pass and say 'That's it, that's the only problem here' or they can be forward thinking, think a little bit constructively along the lines of 'Ok Valencia fecked up, but why was he put into that position? Why has he been given the ball there?'. Suddenly you see things in a different light.

It's very, very easy to blame Valencia and then close the case.

It isnt forward thinking or constructive to think all that, its just finding an excuse to not blame the guy. It wasn't a tough pass to deal with at all. All Valencia had to do was not feck up a simple back pass. You make it sound as if he was given the ball surrounded by couple of Arsenal players which wasnt the case. Neither was it passed to him at pace making it tough to control and pass it back. It was a simply lay up, take 1 touch, pass it back and we're sound.

 

[Waldner]

It isnt forward thinking or constructive to think all that, its just finding an excuse to not blame the guy. It wasn't a tough pass to deal with at all. All Valencia had to do was not feck up a simple back pass. You make it sound as if he was given the ball surrounded by couple of Arsenal players which wasnt the case. Neither was it passed to him at pace making it tough to control and pass it back. It was a simply lay up, take 1 touch, pass it back and we're sound.

It is. At the moment, you're the one taking every possible reason not to lay any blame on Jones and lay it all on Valencia instead. It's not hard to agree to the point of view that they both made a mistake, however Valencia wouldn't have had the opportunity to make a mistake had Jones not made his.

I'd rather not discuss this with you further if all you're going to do is repeat the same thing people before you have been saying to me, Varun. It's clear you and many others here either lack the ability to think beyond one mistake (unlikely), or that people just dislike Valencia/love Jones and so want to protect/criticise them as much as possible. I'm not going to get anywhere debating with people who have such concrete views.

 

[Varun]

It is. At the moment, you're the one taking every possible reason not to lay any blame on Jones and lay it all on Valencia instead. It's not hard to agree to the point of view that they both made a mistake, however Valencia wouldn't have had the opportunity to make a mistake had Jones not made his.

I'd rather not discuss this with you further if all you're going to do is repeat the same thing people before you have been saying to me, Varun. It's clear you and many others here either lack the ability to think beyond one mistake (unlikely), or that people just dislike Valencia/love Jones and so want to protect/criticise them as much as possible. I'm not going to get anywhere debating with people who have such concrete views.

There's absolutely nothing to dislike about Valencia nor anything lovable about Jones but yeah, if the only other reason why I could be saying what I am is the part in bold, its better not to discuss this with you.

 

[Lawman]

Yeah, the bit where he disappeared for their first goal, and the time he gave away a stupid free kick in the edge of our box were real highlights for me.

Yep I suggest you get over it! We have been watching Rafael do this for 10 games a year for the last half a dozen seasons!

 

[Lawman]

How so? Because he ordered Val to make a basic 15 yard pass?

No the fact he tried to play and fecked up when it was clearly not on to play. It wouldn't matter if Valencia had hit that pass back to DDG to clear, Jones was still a muppet for trying to play when it was not on.

 

[Lawman]

Gets picked continually over better players, first Nani, now Rafael. I don't know how he does it, but he "works hard". He was beyond terrible yesterday.

He gets picked as he's consistently better simple.

 

[Rossa]

Despite his two errors for the goals, I actually thought his effort and general play was spot on. Real shame about the errors.

I fully blame Di Maria for the first goal as he just stood there without any intent of defending when he easily could have fallen down into defense and intercepted. Valencia was horrible for their second, but bar that stupid mistake he actually had a good game. It's refreshing to see him run at defenders more, and he gave Sanchez nothing down that wing as Valencia both outpaced and outmuscled him a few times.

I too would give Rafael game time, but I'm wondering if Valencia should be allowed to play ahead of Rafael actually.

 

[RedMachine03]

 

[darko]

And another thing onthat first goal. Watch daily Blind. he gives Chamberline the goal side.

You can go back and reach the ref blowing the whistle to kick off the game this way. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the pass, we now have a manager that wants players to play the ball rather than punting them long. The back pass was atrocious, there's no defending that.

I'll post the replay. Both were poor passes. Jones had the option of playing that ball to the RW/RM position. He could have even played that ball over Arsenal's LB (Monreal?).

If I thought that they would learn from this, I would feel better. Sadly, I'm not confident of that happening.

 

[darko]

I fully blame Di Maria for the first goal as he just stood there without any intent of defending when he easily could have fallen down into defense and intercepted. Valencia was horrible for their second, but bar that stupid mistake he actually had a good game. It's refreshing to see him run at defenders more, and he gave Sanchez nothing down that wing as Valencia both outpaced and outmuscled him a few times.

I too would give Rafael game time, but I'm wondering if Valencia should be allowed to play ahead of Rafael actually.

Di Maria could have just given Smalling a shout to stay with Monreal. but there was no communication. There were so many errors on that goal.

I'd also like to see Valencia back at RM.

 

[darko]

It isnt forward thinking or constructive to think all that, its just finding an excuse to not blame the guy. It wasn't a tough pass to deal with at all. All Valencia had to do was not feck up a simple back pass. You make it sound as if he was given the ball surrounded by couple of Arsenal players which wasnt the case. Neither was it passed to him at pace making it tough to control and pass it back. It was a simply lay up, take 1 touch, pass it back and we're sound.

I'll ask you two simple questions. Why did Jones pass to Valencia? What option did you think Jones though Valencia had once he received the ball?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

No the fact he tried to play and fecked up when it was clearly not on to play. It wouldn't matter if Valencia had hit that pass back to DDG to clear, Jones was still a muppet for trying to play when it was not on.

Van Gaal wants the players to play, that is his MO. Granted Jones mis-controlled but the ball landed nicely at Valencia's feet and the pass was not difficult.

 

[Nobby style]

Van Gaal: We gave it away [for second goal] but man doing it [Valencia] was best man on my team. Also for him so disappointing.

So Van Gaal thought he was the best man on his team? What match were all the footballing geniuses watching?

 

[Roosney]

He gets picked as he's consistently better simple.

This. Him starting is fully deserved. We woulda been ran over a lot more often if it wasn't for Tony. Imagine the current United with Nani and Rafael occupying the right flank, we would been crushed so badly.

 

[Ibi Dreams]

This. Him starting is fully deserved. We woulda been ran over a lot more often if it wasn't for Tony. Imagine the current United with Nani and Rafael occupying the right flank, we would been crushed so badly.

We'd probably score 10-15 goals more per season though

 

[bosnian_red]

Van Gaal: We gave it away [for second goal] but man doing it [Valencia] was best man on my team. Also for him so disappointing.

So Van Gaal thought he was the best man on his team? What match were all the footballing geniuses watching?

To be fair if those mistakes didn't happen and the rest of his game was the same, then I'd say he was a bit of a beast in that game. Sanchez was pretty awful all game and Valencia constantly took the ball off of him and got forward well. Its just when you are the direct reason for 2 goals then there's not much you can say. Think of it this way... I'd say he had a 3 or 4/10 performance. -2 for each goal that he was directly responsible for. Without it he probably would've been up there with de Gea as MotM as his general play was good but you can't have a good game but cost your team 2 goals.