Antonio Valencia | 2009/10 Performances
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First of all, he won't be 25 for another year.
Second of all, that's bollox.
Henry was a pacy player. Did he peak between 23 and 25 years old?
I could be wrong because I don't play it, but I suspect this may be another Football Manager thing.
Valencia's growth stats probably aren't too good I'll guess, because he's pacy or something stupid.
If he was slow as feck, we could expect him to be world class by the time he's 46, because as we all now know, lack of pace means later peak.
I think you must be referring to Blackburn. Other than that match(obviously I've missed some) I can't think of setting the world alight.
Henry was utilized much better by Wenger, rather than wasted on the wing in the Calcio.
In his first season he scored 20 goals or so. And I don't think it's appropriate to compare Valencia to all times greats like Henry and Giggs.
Owen,Anelka, Messi,Ronaldo, Saviola,Dyer, Sharpe etc all peaked earlier. PLayers like Berbatov, Yorke, Sheringham peak later. Valencia is from the former category.
care to give examples of pacy players peaking at 26-28?
Jesus Christ, are you on a wind-up?
got me there, was rather in reference to Valencia being compared to 35 years old Ryan Giggs.
Henry, Pires, Kanchelskis, Figo, Eto'o...
The point is that they needed to adapt to United.Playing in the PL for Wigan and making the step to a huge club like United ain't no easy task and he's done well so far.
My point was that new players need time and at the very very least one season to judge them fairly.Saying he's another "Poborsky" shows how fickle the supporter can get, we haven't even played 10 PL matches
Henry started banging them in in his debut season at Arsenal, he is much more intelligent player and much, much more complete player than Valencia will ever be. His understanding of the game, vision and brain were easily seen in his early years and especially from day one in Arsenal. He was used as a winger, and obviously not a perfect example.
Pires is not as much dependent on pace, as Valencia, neither is Figo, who is one of the greatest players of the last decade and is by no means comparable, same goes for Eto'o who was scoring for fun in Mallorca and was already at his peak at 24-25 in Barca.
Kanchelskis is a good shout, but after 27 he was like what?
So how did United supporters get the reputation of being a bunch of spoilt cnuts?
28? That'd be my guess.
I'm not saying that Giggs has peaked at 35 but he's still exceptionally quick - made Micah Richards look like a boulder the other week.
You're honestly hopelessly wrong about pacey players peaking before 25 - just looking at Valencia you can see that he's still somewhat raw and undeveloped - he's not even close to his peak.
With that I agree, he needs to gel with the team and formation. But Valencia is by no means a stranger in the Premiership.
Why he'd be more immune to criticism than Nani? At least he has played day in and day out in the last 3 season, while everyone is busting Nani's balls (having played several games as a starter last season) and saying that if he fails to produce this season he should be sold?
Valencia has played over 90 matches in Prem. Who do you think should need 1 or two more seasons to develop - Nani(who barely played half of that time) or Valencia?
You can't compare Giggs to Valencia. It's a blasphemy. They are simply incomparable. Mind you there were people who wanted him sold to Inter back in the days, when he was supposed to 'lose his step'. Giggs is an institution and always would be. He's playing at top level like for 20 years. He's an outstanding player with or without the ball. Giggs broke into the first team at a tender age and made the wing his own. It's the same as comparing Ronaldo or Messi's >40+ goal seasons, like comparing Giggs to Valencia. Giggs played one hell of a matches in the middle of the park, his vision and eye for the pass is something very few people out there have. It's not something you learn.
What do you realistically expect from Valencia at his peak? Saying he's raw and inexperienced I certainly agree. But when you expect him to peak at 27, do you think he'd run like a 23 years old then?
Muppet, time to develop? How about giving him time to settle before acting the dick.
Aha. I've got your number now. One of those people who, bizarrely, thinks praise for Valencia automatically equals criticism of Nani and vice versa.
Nani's got feck all to do with what we're discussing now but the reason Valencia deserve our patience is the same reason we should be patient with every new signing. It takes a while to settle in a new club, with new team-mates and to benefit from the improved coaching. I mean, that stands to reason.
Nani's got feck all to do with what we're discussing now but the reason Valencia deserve our patience is the same reason we should be patient with every new signing. It takes a while to settle in a new club, with new team-mates and to benefit from the improved coaching. I mean, that stands to reason.
So Nani v Valencia is the new Tevez v Berbatov then?
He'll probably run quicker.
Last weekend Tyson Gay ran the fastest 100m of his career, the second fastest in history, when he was 27 (he did it carrying a groin strain).
yes but so do Nani or Tosic. Being a new signing doesn't mean getting ahead in the pecking order and getting more minutes. Evra and Vidic earned their place in the squad(if shown as example).
And during that time Valencia is immune to criticism and only positives? Okay.
It'll be interesting to see. Can't see Nadal,Federer,Murray running faster at 27. It's not like sprinters endure the same as footballers in competitive events.
although i think with valencia there is a lot more to come, i wish we had gone for robben or ribery we had the money and we needed guaranteed class, which is not something we have from the wings at the moment. (bar giggs)
But i will give him a season to see what he can offer us
But i will give him a season to see what he can offer us
We're not talking about what those players did at 23. You asked for pacey players who peaked at 26-28.
I gave you examples. Now you can twist what I said and duck and dive, but the fact is, each of those players played their best football at age 28 or thereabouts.
To say Valencia has peaked is amongst the stupidest things I've heard on these boards. He's so obviously a raw player nowhere near the finished article.
What on earth does that have to do with the bit of my post you quoted? Did you actually read it? I was talking about being patient with new signings.
Nani's been at United for three years, by the way and Tosic is even more irrelevant to this discussion than he is.
Elaborate on that point.
How exactly is Lennon's play any more varied than Valencia's? If anything he's less well rounded, although some might still consider him the better player, but I can't see what Lennon has that Valencia doesn't.
ah, ffs, read carefully from post 1 I've said that Valencia should be at his peak right now. It's obvious even for Stevie Wonder that he isn't. Never argued with that.
The whole argument started from one saying that he has 5-6 seasons at top level. Do you honestly think Valencia would be a starter at 30? Do you honestly believe that even losing his step in his later 20's he'd be good as Giggs(or let's say develop his other qualities like him) at 35 to hold his own?
Figo, Giggs and Henry are not comparable to Valencia. They are world class players with peak level for a whole decade or so.
Yeah, but he shouldn't.
The vast, vast majority of players don't peak - a concept I think you struggle to understand, and one which means to reach the height of their ability - at 23. Wingers aren't any different.
It's ridiculous to say a player should be at his peak at 23, no player should. Some players do e.g. Saviola, but they're in the minority.
And it seems like you're implying Valencia will have lost his pace by the time he's 30 and thus be pretty useless, neither of which are even close to the truth.
Tosic is a new signing, was he given a run in the team? Vidic, Evra were new signings and were they automatic starters? Nani has started 7 games last season. Valencia is not producing at the moment, he needs time to adapt, ok. I can't see how he gets more minutes than Nani tho(example), having in mind that exactly the latter has been for 3 seasons at United.
He needs to settle in and start making better crosses.
Says who? First of all you're wrong about the peak age of forwards and wingers - if they avoid injury and the pitfalls of an unhealthy lifestyle it should be 27 at the earliest. That's an accepted fact. Your examples of Kieron Dyer, Saviola and Lee Sharpe are frighteningly, shockingly poor. You've picked players with injury prone hamstrings and poor off the pitch life styles. So we can discount all of them.
Secondly, Valencia is from Ecuador and grew up in poor financial circumstances. You are stating that he should be as good as certain players, all of whom come from affluent European countries and attended wealthy football academies, schools of excellence. Valencia hasn't had the benefit of all that.
He's new to the team, to his team mates, to United's training and playing methods. I think there's a lot more to come from him and he looks like he's up for the challenge - I've no doubt he'll mature into a great player for us. Pulling him apart in this thread after a handful of games is just pathetic.
Matches him with pace, much better dribbler,more unpredictable, roams more on the field, natural talent when it comes to beating his man(important for a winger), when on the top of his game is pretty impossible to stop, low-center of gravity has better control of the ball, etc. On the contrary what we are discussing tho, Valencia is much more disciplined and hard working and can turn out to be better in the long run than Lennon. If Lennon was at United tho I can see him being moulded better as he has more raw potential than Valencia.
Actually, here's the post that started you off on your nonsensical ramblings.
23 when we signed him, plus another 5 or 6 years, will make him 28-29 years old. Not 30. Your grasp of maths is as poor as your understanding of what age most footballers peak at.
At a push, you could argue that some footballers decline from about 29 years onwards (although with modern training techniques that only happens with players who have been wrecked by injury) but that still gives us another 6 years before he would even start to decline and he won't peak until half way through that period, at the very earliest.
I defy you to name one footballer, any footballer, who declined dramatically at the age of 29, other than in the context of a serious injury. In your own time....
He cost £16m and no Ronaldo infront of him thats why he starts. Vidic, Evra, Tosic were all brought in January for positions we had established first teamers for (Heinze, Silvestre, Brown) Obviously they would need to adapt and prove their worth. Someone like Saha was brought in to fill a needed position which is why he would probably find he went straight in the team.
fecking hell.
VALENCIA NEEDS TIME TO SETTLE AT HIS NEW CLUB BEFORE BEING WRITTEN OFF, AS YOU HAVE DONE IN THIS THREAD.
THIS HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH NANI OR TOSIC.
Now read that again. Carefully.
So basically, he's better than Valencia in some areas but doesn't actually have more variety to his game.
Valencia does have a natural talent for beating his man, pretty clearly. He's better than Nani at it too.
Lennon's a great dribbler, for many reasons, just like Valencia. Lennon's better.
Besides that though, and his pace and off the ball running - which Valencia's not half bad at, FWIW - he's not got a lot more to his game.
Valencia's a better and more varied crosser and offers more defensively, so really he's a more rounded player than Lennon. I'm not saying he's better, that's besides the point, I'm saying he's more rounded. And you'd have a hard time proving otherwise.
this is correct, atm lennon is a better winger who offers more in attack
Which is quite possibly the worst statement I've seen on this board.
A player should be at his peak at 23?
Wouldn't agree there... he's just faster!! If Nani had his pace he would be more threatening.
Good points.
I think it's fascinating to see the way SAF is utilising Owen, a player who has been written off as past it more times than I can remember in the last 4 or 5 years.
He's a player who has played literally hundreds of games, and had several serious injuries, yet judging from the weight that he's obviously lost in recent weeks and the fact that he's got way sharper recently too, I'd say SAF thinks Owen can actually improve. I think he's not playing Owen much at the moment because he's giving him a chance to get into shape first. I've no doubt that in the coming months we'll all be talking about how fast and fit Owen looks - and he was the classic example of a burnt-out pacey player crocked in his mid-20's until recently.
Quite how a supporter of United - a team currently where they are this season because, pretty much, of Scholes (34) and Giggs (35) - can talk about players peaking at 23 is beyond me.
Ever though why is that? Add Robben into that category, fat Ronaldo, etc. Those players are more prone to injuries. It's pretty natural you probably have an idea why is that I suppose?
He'll turn better no doubt, and he will develop, but you sound like sky is the limit for him. Handful of games with United? Yes, but how about over 80 matches for Wigan? What was his end product last season?
I can see where you guys come from, but shouldn't negatives be posted as well? After all we are here for a discussion. I don't think Ferguson is reading right now and taking notes of these opinions. He knows best and he bought him for a reason.
After all wasn't Berbatov crucified for a handful of games, even tho he had less playing time in Prem than Valencia?
I'd like to be completely wrong about the lad and that this thread come back to haunt me and becomes BPITW. I wont boo him or cheer against him while in United shirt, but can't see what's wrong with stating what I see in his first 10 or so matches.
Nah, I think he's much better at isolating defenders one on one through more intelligent positioning and he draws defenders into the tackle a lot better.
I'd say he's the best dribbler in our team.
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