Nah, the two main problems are (were?) that we can't judge a player's value properly - either transfer targets or our own players - and that we're being run as a family club. We pay huge wages for potential only we can see and once someone gets his foot through the door, he only has to show up for a short period of 6 months to a year to become indispensable. You can see this preposterous optimism in the way our fanbase reacts every time a player puts a string of good performances together, too. Or in the protection the manager (pater familias) usually gets. We don't leave it to the last minute because we don't know how to negotiate, we do it because we don't want to negotiate.
9
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 19
- Goals
- 2
- Assists
- 1
- Yellow cards
- 0
- Status
Nah, the two main problems are (were?) that we can't judge a player's value properly - either transfer targets or our own players - and that we're being run as a family club. We pay huge wages for potential only we can see and once someone gets his foot through the door, he only has to show up for a short period of 6 months to a year to become indispensable. You can see this preposterous optimism in the way our fanbase reacts every time a player puts a string of good performances together, too. Or in the protection the manager (pater familias) usually gets. We don't leave it to the last minute because we don't know how to negotiate, we do it because we don't want to negotiate.
How has a performance thread for this clunk reached 37 pages for this season already? Shouldn't be that big for his whole United career. What a waste of wages he's been
Pretty sure he has a better record than most players we’ve had since Fergie left. Been here too long sure but let’s not talk about him being as big a flop as most revisionists in this thread are making out. Similar goals to game ratio to Rashford too. Should’ve been better but he’s not been a colossal flop like people would want you to believe.
Go on then, I'll take this as I think Martial has been woeful for us over a number of seasons and I reckon (as I type I haven't checked) that his goals to games will stack up poorly compared to some players we've cast off as flotsam and jetsam. I'll go with all the players I can remember have played up top for us as a serious choice signed since Fergie retired.
Martial - 317 games - 90 goals, 0.28 goals per game
Rashford -384 games, 126 goals, 0.32 goals per game
Lukaku - 96 games, 42 goals, 0.43 goals per game
Cavani - 59 games, 19 goals, 0.32 goals per game
Ronaldo (return), 54 games, 27 goals, 0.5 goals per game
Zlatan, 53 games, 29 goals, 0.55 goals per game
Hojlund, 24 games, 6 goals, 0.25 goals per game
Greenwood, 129 games, 35 goals, 0.28 goals per game
Ighalo - 24 games, 5 goals, 0.21 goals per game
Weghorse - 31 games, 2 goals, 0.06 goals per game
Falcao - 29 games, 4 goals, 0.14 goals per game
Sanchez - 45 games, 5 goals, 0.11 goals per game
Depay - 53 games, 7 goals, 0.13 goals per game
So looking at that - Martial has played the 2nd highest amount of games (nearly three times more games than Greenwood in first) and is only above Hojlund and then accepted flops in Weghorse, Sanchez, Falcao and Depay. He's equal with Greenwood, who alongside coming through as a youngster mostly played on the right anyway.
Interestingly, way off the records of Lukaku and Cavani, who most people would see as not good enough.
If you take Martial's record in the seasons since covid his rate is:
95 games, 19 goals - 0.2 goals per game. Putting him below Greenwood, Ighalo and Hojlund.
This is before we use our eyes and look at the obvious lack of care or bothering to put in a shift for the team. His first touch is laboured and poor, he's lost any pace that he ever had and seemingly all the desire. The guy should have been sold a long time ago.
Minutes rather than games would be a better comparison.
It would be that's much harder to find across all comps.
Martial undoubtedly as a starter would come off much worse compared to say Cavani by comparing minutes to goals ratios. I think games to goals does him more justice than he probably deserves.
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We have no negoatiating power to begin with, in this case.
Attempts at selling him would be/ is a carbon copy of what happened with Pogba (and to some extent Harry Maguire/ Jesse Lingard), offering him a renewed contract on basically 300k a week was considered disrespectful (somehow). Then once he tried the open market, he ends up signing to Juve for half that, cause only Chelsea is mental enough to match our wages/performance ratio.
2 years out on Martial, I think the club was looking to sell, he went to Sevilla to try and up his value, that didn't work. If you can't sell him cause the market isn't interested at his wages/ value then he's here till we release him. Unless he renewed for about 100k a week + performance bonuses to take him up to >200k then the club should even entertain it, which he would probably go mental over you requesting.
Extending him is a bad idea as it just pushes the problem down the road a year, I'm glad the club is taking the wiser option on this one.
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I was talking about his last contract. He ended up on £250k because we left it too late with the risk of losing him for nothing. Hence we haven't been able to shift him.
Found the stats - so here's the adjustment:
Martial - goal every 219 minutes: 2.43 games per goal
Rashford - goal every 203 minutes: 2.25 games per goal
Cavani - goal every 163 minutes : 1.81 games per goal
Lukaku - goal every 168 minutes: 1.86 games per goal
Zlatan - goal every 139 minutes: 1.55 games per goal
Greenwood - goal every 216 minutes: 2.4 games per goal
Ighalo - goal every 151 minutes: 1.68 games per goal (some nice Europa league padding admittedly)
Ronaldo - goal every 157 minutes: goal every 1.74 games
Hojlund - goal every 276 minutes: 3.06 games per goal
Falcao - goal every 374 minutes: 4.15 games per goal
Depay - goal every 371: 4.12 games per goal
Weghorse - goal every 839 mins: 9.32 games per goal
Sanchez - goal every 556 minutes: 6.18 games per goal
So going off that, the story is pretty similar, he does better than Sanchez, Weghorse, Depay, Hojlund and Falcao but goes below Greenwood and everyone else.
Obviously Greenwood played on the right to accomodate Martial through the middle too - lots of our play and systems have been moved around to fit Martial and he's been statistically meh and qualitatively bang average/ mediocre too.
So only slightly worse than Rashford who has probably taken more penalties?
I'm not claiming Rashford is a world class striker - I'm demonstrating that Martial's stats don't stack up well compared to those who've come and gone, which is what the original poster was saying.
They've both been similar in many ways, streaky with great seasons splattered amongst some woeful ones, doubts about all-round play and suitability to different systems. I guess the main defence for Rashford over Martial is that Martial has rarely been played out of position to accomodate other players (except when he was dropped for Zlatan and Lukaku but that doesn't really affect mins per goal) and Rashford developed as a youth player where goals are less likely to be a thing. Rashford also has only played through the middle as the main striker for parts of last season/ early this.
They could well both be not good enough
FYI, Rashford has scored 11 pens for us, Martial 8. They've both missed 2
Not that I miss him but he has been out for quite some time now with “illness”. Does anyone know what is actually wrong with him or is it just another fall out with ETH ?
Probably can't be arsed getting out of bed now he knows there's no chance of a new contract being offered
Anyone who plays regularly as a sub will get a big bump to those numbers. And Martial scored a good few goals coming off the bench. Especially since managers realised he’s made of glass and won’t survive a full 90. Finishing a match with one goal and just 10 or 15 minutes played will drag your goals per minute average down dramatically. It’s the equivalent of scoring six goals in a match where they were one of the starters. Similar thing happens where players start but don’t finish. Which also applies to Martial and the way managers have had to wrap him in cotton wool.
What if they don't score? It all averages out over time. Unless you are assuming a sub is more likely to score than a starter.
There's people who still think he's not that bad???
But they do score. He has scored. And if Rashford hasn’t scored the same number of goals coming on off the bench then the comparison won’t average out over time. And we all know that goals are more likely late on in games, when defenders get tired and play gets stretched. Especially for an attacker with fresh legs. One our former managers made a career out of this.
Anyway. This is a bit of a side issue. We all know Rashford is far too streaky. Plus he often plays as a wide attacker. Martial has played almost exclusively as a 9. Compare his numbers to the other number 9s on that list. Most of whom were no great shakes themselves. Martial’s numbers have been nowhere near good enough.
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He's scored zero goals from 12 sub appearances this season. I think you're overstating the benefits of being a sub.
A significant proportion of Martials minutes have been on the left. Mainly before all his injury problems, which at the end of the day is what has ruined him.
I think Martial's relatively decent minutes per goal ratio is hugely a product of the COVID - Ole era, where he had about a year where he scored for fun (in empty stadiums) and Bruno was world class and the Lakers won the bubble championship. In other words: Who cares what happened in this plastic environment?!
Given his pricetag and antics he should not be compared to Rashford and 38 year old Ronaldo, but Ruud, Cole and V. Persie imo.
I bet he looks like the expensive failure he is, compared to those proper world class strikers (especially when subtracting the COVID-era).
EDIT: I did some calculations:
Andy Cole: 169 minutes per goal
Robin v. Persie: 137 minutes per goal
Ruud v. Nistelrooy: 118 minutes per goal
Given his pricetag and antics he should not be compared to Rashford and 38 year old Ronaldo, but Ruud, Cole and V. Persie imo.
I bet he looks like the expensive failure he is, compared to those proper world class strikers (especially when subtracting the COVID-era).
EDIT: I did some calculations:
Andy Cole: 169 minutes per goal
Robin v. Persie: 137 minutes per goal
Ruud v. Nistelrooy: 118 minutes per goal
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I remember after their first five years Martial and Rashford's overall numbers were incredibly similar. Very similar amount of goals, very similar amount of games as a striker and very similar amount on the left.
Obviously things have changed in the four years since. Martial's been destroyed by injuries, he hasn't scored much while Rashford has had two big scoring seasons, and Martial has mostly played upfront while Rashford has been mostly on the left. I wouldn't say Martial has almost exclusively played as a 9 though. Only just over 60% of games in total.
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So we should discount the 'Covid environment' but compare him to players who played exclusively up front in far better teams that were pretty much set up to make chances for them? Makes sense.
Lets compare Hojlund with Van Nistelrooy too.
He was ill one month ago. Abd still is...
No he hasn’t. He played on the wing from midway through his first season, and didn’t really play upfront again until Ole’s first full season. In fact, Rashford played up top more than him until Ole decided to switch them.
The man will collect his last five months of paychecks from United -- without having to do anything except be on top for training sessions -- and soon be forgotten. He may get on with Monaco or some other half-decent League 1 and finish out his playing days living the good life.
He can go on stealing a living in Ligue 1, or perhaps MLS/Saudi if he's lucky enough.
Martial's marketing value in MLS is probably nonexistent. The league wants to bring in bona fide superstars as they have with Chiellini and more recently Messi. Even if, and they obviously are, all has beens, that's still great for the league. But what MLS clubs are not interested in are players like Martial who are, so to speak, "never beens". I would advise every MLS club to stay away from Martial.
As for Saudi Arabia, Martial might get lucky and find a club to bring him in.
Some thoughts about it:
- Rasmus is in his first season, Martial had 9 years at United to establish himself.
- I don't think Martial would ever make a team with Scholes, Giggs, Keane etc. in the squad, because of his attitude. Ronaldo wanted him and a few other lazy uncommited players out...So in a way, yeah he would benefit from playing with Scholes, Giggs, Becks, Ronaldo etc, but at the same time he would never make that team, beacuse of his lack of commitment. It was hard to make the matchday squad during that United era, standards in training were absurdly high, Scholesy would kick you, Giggsy would challenge you and Keano would put you in your place if you didn't bring 105 %.
Has been excluded from first team trainings for over a month due to being unfit:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...thony-Martial-Manchester-United-training.html
Anthony Martial has been told to train on his own to improve his fitness before Erik Ten Hag will consider picking him for Manchester United.
Mail Sport has learned that Martial has not trained with his team-mates since picking up a sickness bug last month, which has prevented the Frenchman from playing since United’s 3-0 home defeat to Bournemouth on 9 December.
Ten Hag’s decision for Martial to train on his own is not a disciplinary matter, but reflects his belief in individual training for players lacking match fitness.
Martial is currently not deemed to be fit enough to work with the first-team group at present given the intensity and work-rate the manager demands from his players in training.
Individual training for players returning from injury is standard practice at United, but the length of time it is taking Martial to regain fitness has raised eyebrows.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...thony-Martial-Manchester-United-training.html
Anthony Martial has been told to train on his own to improve his fitness before Erik Ten Hag will consider picking him for Manchester United.
Mail Sport has learned that Martial has not trained with his team-mates since picking up a sickness bug last month, which has prevented the Frenchman from playing since United’s 3-0 home defeat to Bournemouth on 9 December.
Ten Hag’s decision for Martial to train on his own is not a disciplinary matter, but reflects his belief in individual training for players lacking match fitness.
Martial is currently not deemed to be fit enough to work with the first-team group at present given the intensity and work-rate the manager demands from his players in training.
Individual training for players returning from injury is standard practice at United, but the length of time it is taking Martial to regain fitness has raised eyebrows.
He should put a social media post calling the manager a liar.
Embarrassing player. Not even able to do the bare minimum.
He clearly stopped caring about United or football years ago
I’m stunned he’s not had his contract ripped up yet
I’m stunned he’s not had his contract ripped up yet
Pretty funny how strict these Ten Hag “fitness standards” are when we are one of the worst teams in the league in terms of work rate and running. fecking clown
Without picking any sides...another story like this is terrible.
The dressing room cannot have any sort of harmony with so many issues with multiply players.
The dressing room cannot have any sort of harmony with so many issues with multiply players.
Here we go again.
If this is the situation then surely it is better to free transfer him at the end of the month than carrying around another Sancho type situation? We could still try to get him out on loan on heavily subsidised wages if we want to save a million or two, but we need to move him on.
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