[DomesticTadpole]

Think he has talent, but he does not have the mentality to be a top footballer. It is tough at the top and you need a thick skin. He has skin like rice paper and let's everything get to him.

 

[Grande]

For my memory, Martial’best period of actual delivery so far, was the period from when Bruno arrived to the start of the next actual season. This was of course spread out due to covid.

 

[acnumber9]

Martial and Rashford rotated on left wing position playing around 50% mins, for the mins they played their goals and assists numbers was good.

It’s good. It’s not excellent. It wasn’t worth the contract we rushed to give him.

 

[Stadjer]

Per Transfermarkt he scored 5 of his 11 goals while playing up front. That means he scored 6 in 28 appearances from the left. I’m not sure what your definition of winger is but where Martial played wouldn’t fit mine. He doesn’t hug the touchline and whip crosses in and his whole game was based on cutting inside. I wouldn’t consider that excellent. I also don’t think any other club would’ve payed him £250k a week for it.

Isnt cutting inside the whole match the modern definition of a winger? The chalk on the shoes and whipping crosses in winger is part of history.

 

[roonster09]

It’s good. It’s not excellent. It wasn’t worth the contract we rushed to give him.

He wasn't worth the contract but it's not straightforward when the initial contract itself was big and he had less than year left on contract. We were in poor negotiation position and this Martial was not same as old Martial. We wouldn't have given the contract now but at that time it made sense to give him contract.

 

[JPRouve]

Good question, and the perception can differ from person to person for sure.

For me, it's simply how much they give across the 90 minutes in their position and whats typically expected. Are they pressing more than their teammates? Tracking back regularly? In CM, are they looking to drive the ball forward or just spend their time passing back and forth?

I look at Rashford pre vs post surgery, and the effort levels are night and day. He's a good example in my eyes who used to make the effort, but last season didn't at all. Linking that to attitude problems is another matter

What if I tell you that in 17/18 Martial had more tackles per game than Rashford, more carries per game, that he was more likely to tackle in our own third than Rashford. Now Rashford had more pressures per game than Martial. Now what if I tell you that people have the impression that Rashford did more than Martial because Rashford concentrated his defensive contribution in the opposition third, visually it gives you the impression that one is doing more but it ignores that the other was better at tracking back and being involved defensively at all the other levels. And when it comes to effort nowadays we underestimate the action of carrying the ball a lot, Martial was doing it at a far higher volume than Rashford.

With that I can answer a previous question that you asked. When you look at someone like Dembélé take into account the fact that he will track back, he may not be in time but generally he makes the effort, he also carries the ball and lead counters at high pace for the entirety of his time on the pitch, if we are realistic you can't expect a player to attack at the highest intensity and also defend at the highest intensity, it's not a thing. The players that are supposed to carry a heavy load on offense or defense are expected to have smaller roles in the other phase.

 

[scottser]

Martial is constantly out injured, which goes some way to explaining his poor form for Sevilla. When he comes back we might expect more of the same from him. He's not PL standard, let alone good enough for us.

 

[JPRouve]

Per Transfermarkt he scored 5 of his 11 goals while playing up front. That means he scored 6 in 28 appearances from the left. I’m not sure what your definition of winger is but where Martial played wouldn’t fit mine. He doesn’t hug the touchline and whip crosses in and his whole game was based on cutting inside. I wouldn’t consider that excellent. I also don’t think any other club would’ve payed him £250k a week for it.

As a winger under Mourinho he was playing wider and mainly used as an heavy ball carrier, man beater from relatively deep, not as a finisher. If he was used as an inside forward, I would understand your point but he wasn't and statistically it's one of Mourinho's mistakes. Mourinho used him like a Perisic.

And I agree many clubs wouldn't have paid him that much but that's not the point, the point was about our wage structure. What we gave to Martial including bonuses was around 64% of what De Gea was earning, so it tells you the gap between someone that is considered to be our best player and Martial.

 

[Red Shorts]

What if I tell you that in 17/18 Martial had more tackles per game than Rashford, more carries per game, that was more likely to tackle in our own third than Rashford. Now Rashford had more pressures per game than Martial. Now what if I tell you that people have the impression that Rashford did more than Rashford because Rashford concentrated his defensive contribution in the opposition third, visually it gives you the impression that one is doing more but it ignores that the other was better at tracking back and being involved defensively at all the other levels. And when it comes to effort nowadays we underestimate the action of carrying the ball a lot, Martial was doing it at a far higher volume than Rashford.

With that I can answer a previous question that you asked. When you look at someone like Dembélé take into account the fact that he will track back, he may not be in time but generally he makes the effort, he also carries the ball and lead counters at high pace for the entirety of his time on the pitch, if we are realistic you can't expect a player to attack at the highest intensity and also defend at the highest intensity, it's not a thing. The players that are supposed to carry a heavy load on offense or defense are expected to have smaller roles in the other phase.

Your first paragraph is very much the problem of defining effort from a player, so many factors to consider.

Good post nonetheless.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Ten Hag's system suits him really well. I have zero expectations when it comes to Martial though. It's not just his mentality but he's become slower and rigid with his movement

 

[acnumber9]

Isnt cutting inside the whole match the modern definition of a winger? The chalk on the shoes and whipping crosses in winger is part of history.

What’s the difference between a modern winger and an inside forward?

 

[acnumber9]

He wasn't worth the contract but it's not straightforward when the initial contract itself was big and he had less than year left on contract. We were in poor negotiation position and this Martial was not same as old Martial. We wouldn't have given the contract now but at that time it made sense to give him contract.

Nobody else would’ve paid close to what we did. As was the norm under Woodward, we panicked.

 

[VP89]

Oh totally agreed, tracking back was a general example. Other aspects of his game he made much more of an effort back in 2020 vs now, wouldnt you agree?

I Think the whole team did, so it's a wider issue than just something with him.

 

[roonster09]

Nobody else would’ve paid close to what we did. As was the norm under Woodward, we panicked.

He would have got as much money including all the signing on fee, wages at that time. Had we sold him he wouldn't have got big contract like we gave him.

Anyways we were in poor position at that time with less than year left on contract.

 

[JPRouve]

Your first paragraph is very much the problem of defining effort from a player, so many factors to consider.

Good post nonetheless.

Exactly that's my point. I think that generally I see where people are coming from but to me they often select what they want which is strangely dictated by trends. Not all players and attackers are expected to press because most defensive systems aren't based on high press and even then not all teams/players have to follow the same triggers, so even when you take two players that are in the same position and replace each others, they are not necessarily and I would even say not likely to follow the same set of instructions. It is an issue that people icnluding pundits only consider pressing as effort when retreating and cutting pass angles or funneling is part of effort and team defense.

Then you have the small issue of players having different attributes and different roles when teams attack or during transition which creates a new set of effort plays and a new set of actions that impact fatigue. A player that caries the 50 times per game is going to be more tired by carries than someone that carries it 35 times, if the latter adds defensive roles to his game it's perfectly normal since he does less offensively.

 

[acnumber9]

As a winger under Mourinho he was playing wider and mainly used as an heavy ball carrier, man beater from relatively deep, not as a finisher.

That’s not my memory of it. I could be wrong though. For me, he had the same problem then that he has now. He doesn’t want to make runs off the ball. He wants the ball to his feet so he can turn and try and dribble. The problem is, his dribbling fell off a cliff. He doesn’t have the burst of pace that he used to have and he hasn’t adapted his game at all. He’s incredibly predictable. Defenders know he wants to open his body to side foot it in so don’t allow him the space to do it.

He’s been given a contract that has made him financially secure and he doesn’t care enough about his game to improve.

 

[acnumber9]

He would have got as much money including all the signing on fee, wages at that time. Had we sold him he wouldn't have got big contract like we gave him.

Anyways we were in poor position at that time with less than year left on contract.

From who?

 

[Stadjer]

What’s the difference between a modern winger and an inside forward?

Nothing. When someone now says winger i will think of a player who starts on the side and will cut inside. I guess you could say that the winger position isnt a thing anymore, their job is taken by a wingback or fullback these days. The wingback is the modern winger and the old winger is an inside forward.

Are there still any ''old school'' wingers playing?

 

[Duafc]

People still convincing themselves he can be a player for us?

 

[acnumber9]

Nothing.

Which was very much my point.

 

[izak]

When I read this thread bumped up I honestly thought some club has actually put in an official bid, shame no bid till now for him we are stacked with him aren't we?

 

[roonster09]

From who?

Whoever was interested in 2018/2019.

 

[roonster09]

When I read this thread bumped up I honestly thought some club has actually put in an official bid, shame no bid till now for him we are stacked with him aren't we?

I don't think we will get any bids for him, his last 2 seasons form and wages means it's difficult to sell him.

 

[Stacks]

Think he has talent, but he does not have the mentality to be a top footballer. It is tough at the top and you need a thick skin. He has skin like rice paper and let's everything get to him.

he doesn't. There's not many things he excels at nowadays.

Ten Hag's system suits him really well. I have zero expectations when it comes to Martial though. It's not just his mentality but he's become slower and rigid with his movement

And can barely dribble

 

[JPRouve]

That’s not my memory of it. I could be wrong though. For me, he had the same problem then that he has now. He doesn’t want to make runs off the ball. He wants the ball to his feet so he can turn and try and dribble. The problem is, his dribbling fell off a cliff. He doesn’t have the burst of pace that he used to have and he hasn’t adapted his game at all. He’s incredibly predictable. Defenders know he wants to open his body to side foot it in so don’t allow him the space to do it.

He’s been given a contract that has made him financially secure and he doesn’t care enough about his game to improve.

We are talking about the player in 17-19, what I wrote isn't my memory it's supported by stats. Martial today isn't worth his contract but his contract wasn't given today or based on what he has done in the last 24 months.

And your last point makes no sense first because Martial has always needed to be pushed, regardless of his contract and he has had his best season after the contract extension.

 

[SER19]

I hope the Sevilla experience knocked some humility into him but I doubt he has the self awareness for that.

Maybe he'll just click with ten hag. Doubtful though

 

[Reynoldo]

Maybe he'll just click with ten hag. Doubtful though

Doubtful but you never know. For now it looks like Rashford is the most likely one of the two to come good again but it can just take one person to light that spark again under a player so who knows.

Sad thing is though for ETH is that he will be judged on getting a tune out of one of these guys as we do need one of them to come good again given we cant replace the entire squad.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

He’s still an enigma. As a long founding member of Martial FC I wouldn’t be too bothered if he was to leave but honestly I feel like he could play a role for ETH if he gets back to any type of form.

I know a lot of people perceive as just running and putting preasure on the man with the ball but I’ve said this before and standby it, if you actually watch Martial, yes he doesn’t really run at someone to press, but what he tends to do is take up positions blocking the passing channels and even helps organise the press.

Ask me, that is someone ETH could probably use especially as a backup to Ronaldo if we can’t get anyone in. Add the fact that to me Martial doesn’t seem that concerned about him scoring goals. Often I feel like he spends too much time looking for intricate passing angles with them mates rather than just getting in behind. However in recent memory him dropping deep and Bruno going beyond him helped produce some of our best football. If you have players in the team like Bruno, Erikson, Donny, Antony, Sancho, Rashford and the like that are willing to run past him he could be useful with all those goal threats.

I think I fall in the category now, he had his chance and should be moved on but if we can’t get replacements in or shift him then he could be of use. I still want to see a Sancho, Martial, Amad front 3 especially if the midfield gets fixed with some decent passers of the ball.

 

[sullydnl]

I don't think he's an enigma. I just think he's a not-particularly-good footballer we held on to for too long. And now we're struggling to get rid of him. No mystery or hidden depths involved.

 

[acnumber9]

We are talking about the player in 17-19, what I wrote isn't my memory it's supported by stats. Martial today isn't worth his contract but his contract wasn't given today or based on what he has done in the last 24 months.

And your last point makes no sense first because Martial has always needed to be pushed, regardless of his contract and he has had his best season after the contract extension.

It supports the fact he was asked to play as a traditional winger? Like I said, I could be wrong. I’m not sure what stats show that though.

After he signed his contract in 2019 he scored 3 goals the rest of that season. He had a very good 19/20, mostly towards the end of the season. Then we signed Cavani and Martial started pouting again.

You make the point that the contract was handed out on the basis of what’s he done the last two years. I’m aware of that, the point being that his form prior to the extension wasn’t worthy on the basis of what he’d done before that. He was paid a wage way above his market value and that’s why we’re stuck with him.

 

[acnumber9]

I don't think he's an enigma. I just think he's a not-particularly-good footballer we held on to for too long. And now we're struggling to get rid of him. No mystery or hidden depths involved.

Yep. At some point everybody should’ve recognised that he isn’t as talented as people thought. A decent first touch and a good finisher at one type of chance. That’s about it.

 

[Brophs]

I don't think he's an enigma. I just think he's a not-particularly-good footballer we held on to for too long. And now we're struggling to get rid of him. No mystery or hidden depths involved.

Indeed. We need to stop burning time trying to rescue these long shots/lost causes.

 

[El Jefe]

We are talking about the player in 17-19, what I wrote isn't my memory it's supported by stats. Martial today isn't worth his contract but his contract wasn't given today or based on what he has done in the last 24 months.

And your last point makes no sense first because Martial has always needed to be pushed, regardless of his contract and he has had his best season after the contract extension.

Martial was never worth the contract we offered him. It was a gamble on his future potential. He was given a £200k contract nearly three years ago with bonuses that can take it to £250k. Pretty sure he was on more than Liverpool's front three, Kane, Son and probably a few others who were much better players.

The contracts to both him and Rashford were in the expectation that they would be worth it eventually. Both have backfired in that sense, especially Martial who has been terrible value for money. It was a gamble that didn't pay off.

 

[JPRouve]

It supports the fact he was asked to play as a traditional winger? Like I said, I could be wrong. I’m not sure what stats show that though.

After he signed his contract in 2019 he scored 3 goals the rest of that season. He had a very good 19/20, mostly towards the end of the season. Then we signed Cavani and Martial started pouting again.

You make the point that the contract was handed out on the basis of what’s he done the last two years. I’m aware of that, the point being that his form prior to the extension wasn’t worthy on the basis of what he’d done before that. He was paid a wage way above his market value and that’s why we’re stuck with him.

He was very good the entire season, not just the end of the season. And what makes you think that he was pouting? Martial was doing the exact things on the field outside of finishing which was absolutely bad and then in March he had his knee injury.

And the point about his contract is that he got it on the back of excellent performances and looked like he was on an ascending trajectory, the club expected him to be a starter and that's why he got that contract. Is he worth it today? Absolutely not but that's not the point.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Luckhurst has been bullshiting a lot this year. Good news or bad news, I wouldn’t trust him

 

[JPRouve]

Martial was never worth the contract we offered him. It was a gamble on his future potential. He was given a £200k contract nearly three years ago with bonuses that can take it to £250k. Pretty sure he was on more than Liverpool's front three, Kane, Son and probably a few others who were much better players.

The contracts to both him and Rashford were in the expectation that they would be worth it eventually. Both have backfired in that sense, especially Martial who has been terrible value for money. It was a gamble that didn't pay off.

I totally agree with that, the point is that the "gamble" was based on previous seasons not coming out of nowhere. And the conversation started with our wage structure which is different to Spurs or Liverpool, we are a wealthier club that pays better, Martial at his current wage has more than a handful of players above him in wage.

 

[Red Shorts]

People still convincing themselves he can be a player for us?

We have no idea how ETH rates him. It's more likely he has no future at United, but we aren't exactly rife of attacking depth so he may be given one last shot. Who knows until August comes around

 

[acnumber9]

He was very good the entire season, not just the end of the season. And what makes you think that he was pouting? Martial was doing the exact things on the field outside of finishing which was absolutely bad and then in March he had his knee injury.

And the point about his contract is that he got it on the back of excellent performances and looked like he was on an ascending trajectory, the club expected him to be a starter and that's why he got that contract. Is he worth it today? Absolutely not but that's not the point.

I would disagree he was very good the whole season. Certainly not a player worth the wage he was on. 16 of his goals came after Christmas. He’d 7 goals in 16 games prior to that. I wouldn’t call that very good for a striker playing for Man United.

Your point about excellent performances is entirely subjective. I disagree that his form leading up to the extension was excellent. When he was given the contract we had already had evidence of him sulking and the many weaknesses in his game.

 

[JPRouve]

I would disagree he was very good the whole season. Certainly not a player worth the wage he was on. 16 of his goals came after Christmas. He’d 7 goals in 16 games prior to that. I wouldn’t call that very good for a striker playing for Man United.

Your point about excellent performances is entirely subjective. I disagree that his form leading up to the extension was excellent. When he was given the contract we had already had evidence of him sulking and the many weaknesses in his game.

So in 19-20, you only judge Martial's contribution on the goals he scored not his contributions as a facilitator? That's not how I see or judge Football. And of course it's subjective, I don't even know what that point is supposed to provide, your point is as subjective.

 

[acnumber9]

So in 19-20, you only judge Martial's contribution on the goals he scored not his contributions as a facilitator? That's not how I see or judge Football. And of course it's subjective, I don't even know what that point is supposed to provide, your point is as subjective.

No, I would consider all aspects. I don’t think his performances were all that good either. Aside from going through every detail of matches we played over two years ago all we are left with is opinion and base stats. He had three assists before Christmas. He had facilitated us to 8th place at Christmas. Our form turned when Bruno signed.

I’m aware what I am saying is an opinion. Which I why I’m saying I disagree. You’re stating it like it’s fact that he was excellent.