[Irwin99]

100% this. When Rashford is playing poorly he runs his Ballacks off.

Agree with that too. I know they're different type of players but even Rooney in his last few seasons here would at times just be shockingly bad and yet he never went hiding, he was always getting involved. Going further back even Danny Welbeck was similar, the quality might have been poor but the application was there. I honestly forgot Martial was on the pitch up until the 42nd minute last night. He just drifts out of games too much. As i said in the match thread, to be fair Greenwood did too and we're playing City so we're not exactly going to have much of the ball but this isn't an isolated case (see Burnley and a million other games). Some one said he might be playing with an injury at the moment but again this isn't an isolated occurrence.

I really don't think he has a future at the club as the main striker. It'd be interesting to see if he goes back to playing more from the left if we did buy someone new.

 

[arthurka]

So how many of the 5 years has he played in the CF role?

15/16 - 56 games 18 goals 11 assists
16/17 - 8 goals 8 assists - hardly played 90 mins was used as a sub
17/18 - 11 goals 9 assists - again was a sub or always subbed off
18/19 - 12 goals 3 assists -
19/20 - 12 goals 5 assists

He has played LW in every other season apart from this.

He has always been hot and cold. When on form he produces numbers, as you can see.

I don´t agree that he hasn´t played as a CF before this season (not saying you are wrong here, just think he has been given his fair share of opportunities there) but ok let´s go with that.
You can´t use him out wide because he dosen´t track back and you can´t use him as a CF due to his lack of throwing himself about and not getting on end of crosses in the box so what should we do?
He has played 131 PL games with 42 goals. If you add the assists to that he has 20 assists so 62 points in 131 games or 0,47 points p/game.If you take all clubs, comps and all appearances he has 232 games with 89 goals and assists or 0,38 p/game.
Do you think these numbers are acceptable for a no1 striker at Utd?

 

[Shark]

It’s clear that Rashford brings out the best in Martial, he’s not nearly as effective without him because there’s nobody else on the pitch that can link up the way they do.

 

[Andersonson]

So how many of the 5 years has he played in the CF role?

15/16 - 56 games 18 goals 11 assists
16/17 - 8 goals 8 assists - hardly played 90 mins was used as a sub
17/18 - 11 goals 9 assists - again was a sub or always subbed off
18/19 - 12 goals 3 assists -
19/20 - 12 goals 5 assists

He has played LW in every other season apart from this.

He has always been hot and cold. When on form he produces numbers, as you can see.

This is with league cup and Europa league stats...

They are terrible for a forward for man united perspective to be fair...

 

[FootyGirl88]

We need to stop scapgoating our best players when things dont go well. First it was Pogba then Rashford now Martial.

We dont have a well balanced functioning team, if any of these guys are in poor form or out injured the team struggles massively and that shouldn't be the case.

 

[3KDré]

Do you think these numbers are acceptable for a no1 striker at Utd?

He hasn't been our no1 striker. In fact I bet you he hasn't even played more than 5 games for us up top since his first few games at the club. This is the first season he has only really played up top. We have seen that he can be very clinical, but we create very few chances as a team and our movement off the ball is horrific at times. He is not blameless but I think you are overreacting. Let's see how he performs when he has better players playing behind him. Even when it was just Rashford playing with him he looked so much better- he had someone he could trust to keep the ball unlike Lingard, Greenwood(which is fair given his age) and James.

 

[bosnian_red]

This is with league cup and Europa league stats...

They are terrible for a forward for man united perspective to be fair...

Same amount of goals as Firmino in the league, more in all competitions. In the system we play, Martial isnt the guy that gets on the end of all or most of our chances (the limited ones we create). That's Rashford in our system. Doesn't matter if Martial is technically the central player and Rashford is wide, they essentially play the same roles as Salah or Mane from wide for Liverpool and Firmino through the middle. Not exactly the same, and different levels of impact, but it's important to note, as his output is perfectly fine in the role he plays. Around 20 goals a season in all competitions, 15 in the league should be his aim, with Rashford getting 10 more given the roles.

 

[Desert Eagle]

I don´t agree that he hasn´t played as a CF before this season (not saying you are wrong here, just think he has been given his fair share of opportunities there) but ok let´s go with that.
You can´t use him out wide because he dosen´t track back and you can´t use him as a CF due to his lack of throwing himself about and not getting on end of crosses in the box so what should we do?
He has played 131 PL games with 42 goals. If you add the assists to that he has 20 assists so 62 points in 131 games or 0,47 points p/game.If you take all clubs, comps and all appearances he has 232 games with 89 goals and assists or 0,38 p/game.
Do you think these numbers are acceptable for a no1 striker at Utd?

Do you have the numbers for Cole, Rooney, RVN Saha etc Would be interesting to see the p/ per game for each of the. .47 seems low but might not be.

 

[Dans]

I don't think martial is being scapegoated because things aren't going well. I think people are commenting on what is quite obviously a weak point in his game, namely, the lack of overall involvement, the one or two trackbacks per game only, his general lack of intensity off the ball. One thing that struck me about city's players including Aguero, was their press and constant chasing of our players when in possession. Martial just doesn't do it at all and probably never will.

 

[He'sRaldo]

I don't think martial is being scapegoated because things aren't going well. I think people are commenting on what is quite obviously a weak point in his game, namely, the lack of overall involvement, the one or two trackbacks per game only, his general lack of intensity off the ball. One thing that struck me about city's players including Aguero, was their press and constant chasing of our players when in possession. Martial just doesn't do it at all and probably never will.

Interesting, as I think he's been pressing well all season.

In any case, did you see Man City's press yesterday? It was pure coordination. It was so good that even Maguire and Lindelof, who are good ball-players, panicked on a few occasions. That's not the result of general harrying, intensity, and passion, that's from hours on the training ground.

We've scored a few goals from other teams making mistakes after our pressing, but we don't have that level of coordination yet.

 

[reddevilchennai]

Jose was right with the attitude of players like Martial and Pogba. Wish the board has taken side with Jose instead of these cry babies.

In current market, how much can we sell Martial for?

 

[Dans]

I agree with you about city's press, and also that it's is non existent as a team exercise at United. Still I would expect a forward to forecheck and try to be the first line of defence. Greenwood didn't do it either but he's only just started so I give him a pass for now.

 

[romufc]

This is with league cup and Europa league stats...

They are terrible for a forward for man united perspective to be fair...

Yes, considering he hardly played 90 mins and plays on the LW.

Would you say Rashford is terrible too then?

 

[romufc]

I don´t agree that he hasn´t played as a CF before this season (not saying you are wrong here, just think he has been given his fair share of opportunities there) but ok let´s go with that.
You can´t use him out wide because he dosen´t track back and you can´t use him as a CF due to his lack of throwing himself about and not getting on end of crosses in the box so what should we do?
He has played 131 PL games with 42 goals. If you add the assists to that he has 20 assists so 62 points in 131 games or 0,47 points p/game.If you take all clubs, comps and all appearances he has 232 games with 89 goals and assists or 0,38 p/game.
Do you think these numbers are acceptable for a no1 striker at Utd?

No, he is not good enough as a sole no 9. He is not a striker, he is a CF. Martial is a player you play when you are playing exciting football with 3 upfront who can interchange.

When you are going away and playing counter attacking with one ST, he is not good enough and never will be because that is not his game.

His numbers when given the chance in the CF role are good, if we want to go for the title then we need a new ST.

 

[Dans]

The other thing i want to mention is that martial's movement up front when we are in possession is also minimal. He never looks to lose his man and come and make himself available to receive the ball.

 

[He'sRaldo]

The other thing i want to mention is that martial's movement up front when we are in possession is also minimal. He never looks to lose his man and come and make himself available to receive the ball.

In a packed area, he loses his man using one-twos and give-and-go's, usually combining with Mata, Rashford, or Pogba. Otherwise, he comes deep and tries to beat a man or two, and either curl it in or play a pass for someone.

He hasn't yet learned to find a yard of space for himself in the box like Greenwood has. I think he's not natural at it, and needs someone to teach it to him. Either that or he's marked more tightly in the box than Greenwood, as the latter seems to be free in the area to get on the end of things a bit more often than our other strikers.

 

[Dante]

We need to stop scapgoating our best players when things dont go well. First it was Pogba then Rashford now Martial.

We dont have a well balanced functioning team, if any of these guys are in poor form or out injured the team struggles massively and that shouldn't be the case.

You're the worst perpetrator of that on this forum with Lingard.

 

[PepsiCola]

You're the worst perpetrator of that on this forum with Lingard.

Lingard is total shit, though.

Bar one purple patch in his entire career

 

[Dante]

Lingard is total shit, though.

Bar one purple patch in his entire career

We need to stop scapgoating our best players when things dont go well. First it was Pogba then Rashford now Martial.

Lingard gets blamed for everything, even when he's not playing.

Lingard may have had a purple patch of scoring, but he's also played well for club and country for much longer than that. He's currently playing really poorly and should leave the club for his sake and ours.

But his scapegoating is still very real. His name even gets brought up in the Harry and Meghan and the UK General Election threads in the CE forum as easy punchlines, for example.

Calling for scapegoating to stop while continuing to do it yourself, is hypocritical.

 

[FootyGirl88]

You're the worst perpetrator of that on this forum with Lingard.

I said scapegoating our best players
And Lingard is awful tbh

 

[Dec9003]

I don’t know if it’s an unpopular opinion but I wouldn’t class Martial as one of our best players.
He probably has the potential to be, and I’d say he’s one of our more important players, but probably not one of the best.
It’s seen as scapegoating him to criticise him which I don’t think is fair, like most players in the squad he has obvious flaws he needs to work on if he wants to be a truly top player.
He really does need to find a way to involve himself a bit more in matches we don’t ‘dominate’.
He also needs to get the ball to feet a little too often for a premier league striker, once he’s on the ball he’s good but he maybe needs to practise moving into different areas and creating promising situations on the pitch a bit more.

 

[Dante]

I said scapegoating our best players
And Lingard is awful tbh

So we need to stop scapegoating the players you don't want to scapegoat, but continue to scapegoat the players you do want to scapegoat.

Wrap it up however you want. It's still hypocrisy.

The poster above doesn't rate Martial as one of our best players. I guess that means it's open season on scapegoating him

 

[kidbob]

His effort is shit BUT he's clearly been given a role to play: false nine.

So when Rashford is there it's fine because he has a foil to bounce off. Last night he had a young number 9 (which Mason is and only is) playing RW, a LB meant to kind of play LW and Lingard to supply him against the best team (sorry Liverpool, but it's true) in the league. false nine works with the appropriate players surrounding it but is worthless when paired with out of position players.

There is a reason that him and Rashford play well together, because they are both good players. The only player who could probably do the role alone is prime Messi, because he's the best ever.

He needs to apply himself better but maybe Ole has given him Ronaldo style privileges.

 

[romufc]

His effort is shit BUT he's clearly been given a role to play: false nine.

So when Rashford is there it's fine because he has a foil to bounce off. Last night he had a young number 9 (which Mason is and only is) playing RW, a LB meant to kind of play LW and Lingard to supply him against the best team (sorry Liverpool, but it's true) in the league. false nine works with the appropriate players surrounding it but is worthless when paired with out of position players.

There is a reason that him and Rashford play well together, because they are both good players. The only player who could probably do the role alone is prime Messi, because he's the best ever.

He needs to apply himself better but maybe Ole has given him Ronaldo style privileges.

This is what I have been trying to explain, loads pointing his stats considering he has played LW most his career.

People expecting Martial to do things he is not built for. He is a CF who will play well with other good players.

Greenwood looked lost yesterday, although I think he is a great talent, he needs to play CF not RW.

I have seen Harry Kane look completely lost when he has no support.

 

[FootyGirl88]

I don’t know if it’s an unpopular opinion but I wouldn’t class Martial as one of our best players.
He probably has the potential to be, and I’d say he’s one of our more important players, but probably not one of the best.
It’s seen as scapegoating him to criticise him which I don’t think is fair, like most players in the squad he has obvious flaws he needs to work on if he wants to be a truly top player.
He really does need to find a way to involve himself a bit more in matches we don’t ‘dominate’.
He also needs to get the ball to feet a little too often for a premier league striker, once he’s on the ball he’s good but he maybe needs to practise moving into different areas and creating promising situations on the pitch a bit more.

Not to me i never said that, some of the criticism has been OTT one poster called him any oxygen thief and some are saying we should sell. I dont have a problem with critiscism of him.

 

[Dec9003]

Not to me i never said that, some of the criticism has been OTT one poster called him any oxygen thief and some are saying we should sell. I dont have a problem with critiscism of him.

That’s very fair, he’s clearly not an oxygen thief.
He’s probably one of the more frustrating players in the squad because I think we’d all agree we know he can do more if he improved certain aspects of his game, hopefully over time with a former striker managing him he can grow into the number 9 role.

 

[kidbob]

Not to me i never said that, some of the criticism has been OTT one poster called him any oxygen thief and some are saying we should sell. I dont have a problem with critiscism of him.

Did they really say sell him? Him, like Pogba, are the least of our worries.

 

[Bebestation]

Martial is nothing more than a central pivot & when he plays good for the team - this is what you see - not him scoring goals freely but him taking up deep positions, holding on to the play well, a great first touch and using his flicks and passes to create quick chances for players like Rashford to have a whole different level of space and time to play as a forward on the left.

We have still not had the Rashford equivalent of a forward on the right channel trying to score goals whilst martial tries to trick a couple of the central areas quickly and we have only just got a CAM this season in Bruno Fernandes who can attempt to shoot from range from some of Martial tap backs as a central pivot as well.

Martial needs the deadly players around him whilst he becomes a more supportive focal point in the central and deeper areas - this is so obvious to see. However when we have injuries & we play players like Lingard, Pereira or James who aren't deadly enough then Martial isn't deadly enough to lead the line either & then we need a different central striker who gets in to the box and tries to score from the few chances we create.

That's why I say - Martial is good enough to be here when the whole first team is in form because he will just add a level of fluidity to our attack that will make Rashford score 2 goals a match than just one & will do so the more deadly players we have around him - but when those players aren't there or when we scrap the tactic to create chances ourselves we then we need a totally different striker because Martial only knows how to play one game.

 

[Suedesi]

Martial is nothing more than a central pivot & when he plays good for the team - this is what you see - not him scoring goals freely but him taking up deep positions, holding on to the play well, a great first touch and using his flicks and passes to create quick chances for players like Rashford to have a whole different level of space and time to play as a forward on the left.

We have still not had the Rashford equivalent of a forward on the right channel trying to score goals whilst martial tries to trick a couple of the central areas quickly and we have only just got a CAM this season in Bruno Fernandes who can attempt to shoot from range from some of Martial tap backs as a central pivot as well.

Martial needs the deadly players around him whilst he becomes a more supportive focal point in the central and deeper areas - this is so obvious to see. However when we have injuries & we play players like Lingard, Pereira or James who aren't deadly enough then Martial isn't deadly enough to lead the line either & then we need a different central striker who gets in to the box and tries to score from the few chances we create.

That's why I say - Martial is good enough to be here when the whole first team is in form because he will just add a level of fluidity to our attack that will make Rashford score 2 goals a match than just one & will do so the more deadly players we have around him - but when those players aren't there or when we scrap the tactic to create chances ourselves we then we need a totally different striker because Martial only knows how to play one game.

Haaland would have been useful

 

[Andersonson]

Yes, considering he hardly played 90 mins and plays on the LW.

Would you say Rashford is terrible too then?

He didnt play 90min because we had better options who provides more goals and assists.

Rashford is younger, and as a LW provided more for the team than Martial does. This season Rash is LW and half way through the season he has doubled Martials best ever season....

Martials best season is 11 goals. 11... He is talented, but it stops with talent. No end product

 

[Bebestation]

Haaland would have been useful

Yeah

We need to know when to adapt our tactics to the players we use, the injuries we have, the opposition we play.

Martial is a good player for manager with an understanding of tactics of how his front lines needs cohesion or creativity but they also need to know when the right time when Martial needs to take a back seat or change positions for the betterment of the team.

People think Rashford is some ready made LM/LW/LF now but you watch - if we stuck Haaland out in the middle Rashford would be a on half the goals he is on this season, he becomes much more static & I know this because I watch him when he plays with different players around him for United or England.

Rashford has made that left spot himself now & part of that is due to Martial whether people want to admit it or not. Next step is to find an alternative to Martial that plays football in a different way & I'm still not happy with our right channel which is weak as hell in comparison to the left.

 

[FootyGirl88]

Did they really say sell him? Him, like Pogba, are the least of our worries.

Yeah one poster said get rid in the summer.

 

[arthurka]

Do you have the numbers for Cole, Rooney, RVN Saha etc Would be interesting to see the p/ per game for each of the. .47 seems low but might not be.

Cole has 237 goals and 51 assists in 554 games or 0,52. 274 games for Utd 121 goals and 44 assist or 0,6.

Rooney 734 games 307 goals and 165 assists or 0,64. For Utd it's 559 games 253 goals and 146 assists or 0,71.

RVN 515 games 324 goals 67 assist or 0,76 for Utd 219 games, 150 goals and 22 assist or 0,79.

Louis Saha 436 games 123 goals and 24 assist or 0,34. Utd 124 games 42 goals and 19 assists or 0,49. His career was of course blighted by injuries.

Martial has 0,47 for Utd and 0,43 total.
Make of it what you will.

 

[Renegade]

Yeah

We need to know when to adapt our tactics to the players we use, the injuries we have, the opposition we play.

Martial is a good player for manager with an understanding of tactics of how his front lines needs cohesion or creativity but they also need to know when the right time when Martial needs to take a back seat or change positions for the betterment of the team.

People think Rashford is some ready made LM/LW/LF now but you watch - if we stuck Haaland out in the middle Rashford would be a on half the goals he is on this season, he becomes much more static & I know this because I watch him when he plays with different players around him for United or England.

Rashford has made that left spot himself now & part of that is due to Martial whether people want to admit it or not. Next step is to find an alternative to Martial that plays football in a different way & I'm still not happy with our right channel which is weak as hell in comparison to the left.

Rashford arguably plays better for England on the LW. With Harry Kane.

 

[AshRK]

I am still not seeing that next level jump which I expected from him this season. Rashford has shown he can hit 25 plus goals ( he would have hit 30 plus had he not got injured). WIth Martial I just don't see it. He is not a bad player to have, I feel he can be like our Firmino type striker but with firmino you have an elite mentality player, not sure if Martial has that.

 

[Bebestation]

Rashford arguably plays better for England on the LW. With Harry Kane.

Not a chance, not the same quantity or quality of goals & not against the same quality of defenders.

Lets see in the Euros.

 

[Isotope]

...
I really don't think he has a future at the club as the main striker. It'd be interesting to see if he goes back to playing more from the left if we did buy someone new.

Judging by Ole's comment about what he wants from a striker, this might come true.

We need to sell Martial to this "World Class' team that suit his "one-two style".

 

[Desert Eagle]

Cole has 237 goals and 51 assists in 554 games or 0,52. 274 games for Utd 121 goals and 44 assist or 0,6.

Rooney 734 games 307 goals and 165 assists or 0,64. For Utd it's 559 games 253 goals and 146 assists or 0,71.

RVN 515 games 324 goals 67 assist or 0,76 for Utd 219 games, 150 goals and 22 assist or 0,79.

Louis Saha 436 games 123 goals and 24 assist or 0,34. Utd 124 games 42 goals and 19 assists or 0,49. His career was of course blighted by injuries.

Martial has 0,47 for Utd and 0,43 total.
Make of it what you will.

Thank you

 

[AltiUn]

I don´t agree that he hasn´t played as a CF before this season (not saying you are wrong here, just think he has been given his fair share of opportunities there) but ok let´s go with that.
You can´t use him out wide because he dosen´t track back and you can´t use him as a CF due to his lack of throwing himself about and not getting on end of crosses in the box so what should we do?
He has played 131 PL games with 42 goals. If you add the assists to that he has 20 assists so 62 points in 131 games or 0,47 points p/game.If you take all clubs, comps and all appearances he has 232 games with 89 goals and assists or 0,38 p/game.
Do you think these numbers are acceptable for a no1 striker at Utd?

He hasn't been the number 1 striker at United the entire time he's been here though.

 

[arthurka]

He hasn't been the number 1 striker at United the entire time he's been here though.

Didn´t say he did but according to many he was being played out of position on the left because he was a 9. There in lies the problem with Martial fans as it is never his fault, his problem is that he isn´t good enough on a constant basis. One fantastic game vs a mediocre team isn´t enough to be a starting 9 for Utd or out on the left as his assist are really nothing to call home about.