It's not imaginary. He is good with the ball at his feet. The only way he gets better is if he improves off the ball. That's the hard truth and the reason why he has not improved a single bit since we signed him.
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It's not imaginary. He is good with the ball at his feet. The only way he gets better is if he improves off the ball. That's the hard truth and the reason why he has not improved a single bit since we signed him.
You're nit picking here. You stated something false, I pointed it out. Simple as.
It's strange how you've not decided to address the actual point of my posts in here, which is that different players move in different ways. Would you agree or disagree with this statement?
The irony of you saying someone else is nitpicking.
Even if you want to argue that he just moves differently, you can move in a different way and still have shite movement.
Yes...some move well and some don't. Completely agree. Martial is a winger who doesn't make runs. Sorry, he's a winger who makes runs that are "too smart" for the rest of his team
https://www.dreamteamfc.com/c/news-gossip/432068/premier-league-running-stats/
Here's a list of the top 10 players in the league last year with the fewest average KM's covered in a match. Martial is the only winger in the list. The rest are all central defenders...
martial bad, needs to be a headless chicken like Jlingzz and then martial good
I've already said that I'd love to see more aggression and intensity in his game. Are you going to address his movement, yes or no? If no, there's no point in continuing this debate.Yes...some move well and some don't. Completely agree. Martial is a winger who doesn't make runs. Sorry, he's a winger who makes runs that are "too smart" for the rest of his team
https://www.dreamteamfc.com/c/news-gossip/432068/premier-league-running-stats/
Here's a list of the top 10 players in the league last year with the fewest average KM's covered in a match. Martial is the only winger in the list. The rest are all central defenders...
Saying he needs to have a better movement = he needs to be a headless chicken, or even the fact that linking off ball movement with headless chicken has to be the worst things I read regularly in Martial's threads.
What do you mean by "am I going to address his movement"? That's what this whole debate is about. How he doesn't move enough
Nope...not even close. Making smart runs behind your fullback is not even close to being a "headless chicken". I'd just like to see him making more runs into space and running onto a pass rather than receiving the ball at his feet 99.99999% of the time (queue the people who will take that 99.99999% quote literally)...
I agree with you though ? I'm making fun of the comment I was quoting.
We're talking quality of movement. Or at least I was. Intensity and aggression is more to do with the running stats that you have posted, as I've mentioned now 3 times, I feel that is the area he should improve.What do you mean by "am I going to address his movement"? That's what this whole debate is about. How he doesn't move enough
At this stage I'm not sure if you're actively attempting to troll me or if you just can't figure out the difference between distance covered and quality of movement.
His lack of energy and work rate is not exaggerated. It's obvious weakness and proven by stats.
Aim is not to close the passing lane alone, it's also to put pressure on the player in possession, something that should be done with intensity.
Not sure why you keep talking about long balls, forget long balls we don't even cross the ball. There is middle ground between Martial and Tevez/Rooney. Winger covering less distance than CB/CF is just very poor. I don't understand how anyone can defend that.
Saying player has some weakness doesn't mean we don't rate the player(excluding @haram) . It's something that should be worked on for the benefit of team and player himself.
Bold part, that's what wrong with your argument and player himself. He should be encouraged to improve his obvious weakness.
p.s btw it's 180, not 360. 360 is the starting point
I agree with this. He needs to run more, and if doesn't do so under Ole, he'll be out. I'm confident he will though and the early signs in preseason are promising (regarding pressing).His lack of energy and work rate is not exaggerated. It's obvious weakness and proven by stats.
Aim is not to close the passing lane alone, it's also to put pressure on the player in possession, something that should be done with intensity.
Not sure why you keep talking about long balls, forget long balls we don't even cross the ball. There is middle ground between Martial and Tevez/Rooney. Winger covering less distance than CB/CF is just very poor. I don't understand how anyone can defend that.
Saying player has some weakness doesn't mean we don't rate the player(excluding @haram) . It's something that should be worked on for the benefit of team and player himself.
Bold part, that's what wrong with your argument and player himself. He should be encouraged to improve his obvious weakness.
p.s btw it's 180, not 360. 360 is the starting point
It's the people that say he lacks quality in his movement are the people I'm having issues with.
There are posters who can see what he brings and can point out what he lacks and needs improvement and then there are posters who have agenda against Martial from long back.
I can see why people say he should improve his movement, it's something many have pointed out. It's just not movement near the box, it's overall movement when he doesn't have the ball. Like dummy runs to pull the defender, busting gut to help the player in possession, making the run from wide position. Sort of template is Mane/Sahal/Sterling. These are small things but he will be such an immense player if he improves his game off the ball.
Even I think his work rate will be lot better under Ole. At least going by what Ole said and how we played in first 2 games, I'm assuming all the player's workrate will be better.
Also I don't understand why people ignore his goals and assists. For the mins he plays, he has very good numbers.
Good post. The only thing I would say is that the 3 players I have bolded are natural wide players. I feel Martial has always moved more like a striker and prefers to stay up top and bring others into play or dribble himself.
I don't know if he is a better forward than Rashford
You are right. He has decent numbers for the minutes he plays and appears extremely efficient because he scored most of the shots he takes and completes most dribbles he attempts. the problem is application and effort. For someone with this talent, he will always have low numbers because he doesn't apply himself enough. for the Premier League;
Shooting -
Martial currently averaging 1.4 shots per game,
Salah avg 3.6,
Sterling and Mane attempt double Martial and this is average per game. If you only shoot when you are clean through on goal to the GKs Right or when you cut in for a shot from the left, you will have limited opps.
Also if you do not make enough runs into GS positions or stretch the FB, you will have less chances to score.
Threat - Martial currently averages 1.2 dribbles per game, Sterling 2.4, Hazard 3.7, Zaha 3.4 - if you don't take you man on and twist his ankles inside and out, then in games you do not score in (which are many), what are you actually doing to threaten the opposition exactly? why should they fear you? do you have the balls to play as an attacking wide player for Man Utd, when you consider how aggressive Giggs and Cristiano were?
Creativity
In 27 apps Martial bagged 2 assists, from 3 big chances created, 7 through balls and 34 crosses.
In 37 apps Hazard bagged 15 assists, from 18 big chances created, 13 through balls and 145 crosses.
In 38 apps Salah bagged 8 assists, from 16 big chances created, 19 through balls and 57 crosses. Both Sterling and Sane both created 11 and 12 big chances respectively.
what it look likes is aside from the odd goal he scores here and there, he isn't really doing much, even if you factor in the minutes played. he simply is not busy enough in terms of attacking his man, creating chances, crossing etc which is why his assists are so low. He doesn't excel in terms of attempts at anything. This is why people call him lazy. not because he does not close down enough but he hardly ever attempts anything then gets subbed off having not had a shot, put in a cross or taken on his man once.
Some people say if you play him for 50 games straight he'll score 25 goals, but he simply will not as he isn't aggressive enough in his quest for goals, both in shooting and getting into scoring opportunities.
he is far behind the leading attackers in the league and when people blame his teammates, Martial was probably the only player who did not see a major improvement when Ole arrived. All the others showed something.
Sure you may have a bit of skill here and there, score the odd worldie, do a nice run once every few games but do you have the balls to play for Man United? that is what I would like a psychologist to ask Martial.
He's stagnated since the first season. Yuu can clearly tell what he's going to do when he receives the ball. Unless he adds some unpredictability to his game he's going to be ineffective.
We shouldnt had rewarded him with that new contract, we will be stucked with him for years now.
It's fine. His contract was running out, and he has resale value. I haven't given up on him yet just acknowledged the lack of progression. Again you just never know.....
He has the potential, but he has been here for 4 years now and looks like the same player he was 4 years ago. He should be consolidated by now and rewarding him with a huge new contract doesn't exactly sends the right message; not only for him but to rest of the players as well.
His lack of energy and work rate is not exaggerated. It's obvious weakness and proven by stats.
Aim is not to close the passing lane alone, it's also to put pressure on the player in possession, something that should be done with intensity.
Not sure why you keep talking about long balls, forget long balls we don't even cross the ball. There is middle ground between Martial and Tevez/Rooney. Winger covering less distance than CB/CF is just very poor. I don't understand how anyone can defend that.
Saying player has some weakness doesn't mean we don't rate the player(excluding @haram) . It's something that should be worked on for the benefit of team and player himself.
Bold part, that's what wrong with your argument and player himself. He should be encouraged to improve his obvious weakness.
p.s btw it's 180, not 360. 360 is the starting point
I rate him appropriately. He has not improved since joining and he isn’t as good as everyone says he is. If people cant handle that, that’s their problem.
And he doesn't do either well enough. Posting a small handful of goals when he has made a little movement (none behind his defender by the way) is only proving my point. A player with his skill should have a lot more goals and assists than he does, but he doesn't see the game well enough and is constantly checking in for the ball rather than making runs. A winger should never be in the list for least amount of running in a game...
I've stated above that he has a strikers movement, not a wingers. I feel that is where he is best played. Play Rashford and either Greenwood or James either side of him and he will bring them into play.
From what I've seen of Martial he doesn't look like a striker at all. Hangs out at the top of the 18 way too much. He doesn't have a predatorial instinct...
Yeah, nothing he's done here has suggested he's a striker or moves like a striker or any variation of that, it's just another excuse. He's spent three years being a winger with incredibly high potential, but as those years have passed he's gotten closer and closer to a winger who had very high potential but didn't push on.
We're not going to agree here. I think we best just leave this here. Maybe reconvene at the end of this season.
That seems more Jose's style than his. Wingers staying wide, dribbling down the line and crossing to a target man. All the while prioritizing tracking back and defensive solidity without a high press, so of course there won't be too many forward runs made in that scenario.
The last match against Leeds he made quite a few forward runs, but didn't get a good ball; he also came deep to hold up the ball. He was able to do both because Ole's playstyle which incorporates a high press and encourages interchanging of positions.
I will say though that he needs to add intensity to his runs, pressing, and game in general. I think that's the thing that will take him to the next level. Also work on his chemistry with the other players.
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Hes lazy with a poor attitude simple as, another who thinks hes made it before he actually has.
Id say the James signing was a huge challenge for your place and change your ways , we l see This season , id like to be suprised but i think he l be sold end of this season or will sulk and carry on and be gone january
Id say the James signing was a huge challenge for your place and change your ways , we l see This season , id like to be suprised but i think he l be sold end of this season or will sulk and carry on and be gone january
He has become so stagnant in his development. I'm a huge fan of his natural talent but Martial just doesn't come across like someone who has the motivation or work ethic to become a phenom. I've seen nothing in pre-season to suggest he'll be any different; well maybe he's running a bit more?
Or maybe rather a gynecologist?
And I hope he proves me wrong. I like his skill set. He is a very dangerous dribbler and has an eye for goal...
You have used per game stats when Martial played many games as a sub. Use per 90 mins stats and th results will be lot closer.
It's not just that he doesn't make good runs in behind, it's also that he doesn't get open well coming short and even when he does he's not particularly secure or clever with the ball so what's the point, really?
I think he probably needs a move unless we bring in someone with extremely clear tactics that will essentially build him into a specific kind of attacker (be it as a striker or a LW) in a fairly rigid system.
I think he probably needs a move unless we bring in someone with extremely clear tactics that will essentially build him into a specific kind of attacker (be it as a striker or a LW) in a fairly rigid system.
All you haters will be disgraced. Admittedly martial is lazy. But even being lazy his numbers rival those hard workings players you feel make movements all the time. So those who chose to write him off, even in his laziness he is putting up such numbers. Imagine when he turns it up a bit. Which he will. He was quite aggressive in his first season. If ole puts trust in him and makes him feel he is a big part of the team he will deliver. And those who keep repeating that silly phrase about players : “he will not make it here” as if you re gods who know the future. You will all be well disgraced.
People have been talking about him having trust and what not for 4 seasons now. Maybe it’s time to start thinking it’s just not going to happen? He’s had new bumper contracts despite being extremely underwhelming, how much more trust can he get.
Now this is an example of totally blind faith in a player with no foundations whatsoever. Ballotelli and Ravel for example also had bucketloads of skill but without application it will not be enough for top level. With Messi being the exception
Like I said in previous post, you used per game which skews the stats as Martial was sub in many games.
Per 90 mins stats (Shots per game)
Salah - 4.8
Sterling - 2.5
Martial 2.2
Dribbles per 90 mins
Martial - 1.8 (50% success rate)
Salah - 1.5 (45% success rate)
Sterling - 2.7 (55% success rate)
Goals from open play
Salah - 19 - 171 mins per goal
Martial - 9 - 180 mins per goal
Sterling - 17 - 163 mins per goal
Hazard - 12 - 243 mins per goal
Chances created per 90 mins
Martial - 2
Salah - 1.9
Sterling - 2.1
Hazard - 3
Martial played 50% of the mins Salah played, so you can calculate crosses/through balls/big changes by multiplying by 2 and around 1.7.
What is looks like is, you have just misused stats without taking mins player into consideration, strength of the teams they played in and most importantly you have compared Martial to the best players (arguable best 3 players) in the league and trying to draw some conclusions based on that. If you compare any player to the best players, their stats won't look good.
He takes as many shots as Sterling per 90 mins and 1 less than Hazard. Problem is not Martial's ability on the ball, it's what he does off the ball and that's where he should improve big time.
He won't score 25 goals and then
Hazard never scored more than 22 in a season and he takes shit loads of penalties
Salah didn't score 25 goals from open play, he scored 25+ goals once in his career
Sterling scored 25 goals for the first time in his career
Sane never scored 25 goals in his career
Gareth Bale scored once in his career.
Robben never scored 25 goals in his career
Ribery never scored
Mane scored once last season and he scored couple of penalties, otherwise even he would have been in 'never scored' category
Son never scored
How many wingers even score 25 goals except Messi and Ronaldo (who don't even have fix position)
Problem is his off the ball work and your expectations. Comparing him to the best players and saying he is falling short or saying he won't score 25 goals when most wingers don't score as many goals.
He has weakness, there is no argument on that from myside. He isn't aggressive and his work rate is not good enough but on the ball he is good and his numbers are very good.
Genuinely though, why are you so obsessed with him? It’s a bit weird, the season hasn’t even started and you already have the most posts in this thread, especially because you’re always in the Lingard and Rashford threads defending them, yet you jump at any opportunity to criticise Martial.
And who’s everyone? Read through this thread, it’s mostly criticism, I genuinely don’t think you’d be happy until he’s hounded out of the club.
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