As excited as I am about Greenwood, Martial is still our most talented player.
The sky is the limit for him provided he is motivated enough.
The sky is the limit for him provided he is motivated enough.
9
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 48
- Goals
- 23
- Assists
- 8
- Yellow cards
- 1
- Status
You can only judge on what has happened so far. Martial has not been our best player this season.
Martial is United's most talented dribbler, but overall talent it's hard to say. I think Greenwood is in an elite-tier of talent, so is Martial but Martial will be 25 by the end of the year, so whether we want to blame him or the way he's been managed prior to Ole, it's fair to say his ability has not caught up to his talent the way you expect out of someone that talented.
As far as him being possibly the player of the season, I think it's not out of the realm of possibilities with the games left, especially since Bruno has been here for half a season and Rashford had a bright patch but wasn't very good until Martial came back and hasn't quite recovered yet from his injuries since football resumed.
You do know Martial has scored 20 goals this season despite being 2 months out and do not take our Penalty or Free kick.
He lost 2 years of his development while playing as LWB for Mourinho. Not sure what levels you expect from him. He only had half decent team behind him for like last 10-15 match.
To be honest put Greenwood 3 years with Mourinho and he'll struggle to fulfill his potential and will stall like Martial and Rashford did. At 19 he put a terrific season at United and was our best outfield player and is a Golden ball winner. The past few years with Mourinho have made people forget how crazy talented he actually is.
As for the most talented player in our squad, I've always maintained that's Paul Pogba.
Before his injury Rashford could have run away as the player of the season but injury did detract him a bit, so until the end of the season it's pretty open. I can think of 3 or 4 players deserving of player of the season so far.
I think there are likely some subconscious academy/English bias with the fans and press - in reality, Martial has played at least as well as Rashford this season. The conversation is constant about his shortcomings and how he will seemingly be the first our of the team with incomings. He and Rashford have both scored 20 goals, both have missed football with injury, yet at least a third of Rashford’s goals have come from the spot. Martial has scored 15 league goals, all from open play, which is amongst the highest in the league this season, despite missing two months. Scored home and away vs City and Chelsea too. He certainly deserves more respect in general, and if hypothetically, Sancho came in - I’m not sure why Rashford is just assumed to be secure in the team over Martial.
I’m not even saying Rashford should miss out or be sold or anything, he’s a top player, but I do think that objectively speaking - Martial has every right to say ‘hang on, I’ve not played any worse than him’. I’m happy we have the two, but both of them have earned their keep to me, whereas the implication is that only one of them has.
I’m not even saying Rashford should miss out or be sold or anything, he’s a top player, but I do think that objectively speaking - Martial has every right to say ‘hang on, I’ve not played any worse than him’. I’m happy we have the two, but both of them have earned their keep to me, whereas the implication is that only one of them has.
This. I feel Rashford will be a streaky player like Rooney and will score in flurries. The first few games back he hasn't been at the races. He was given the penalty to try and get his mojo going. I'd be dropping him in the next couple of games if he continues to misplace passes and not want the open nets.
Rashford should have had another very well taken goal if not for a harsh offside decision and wasn't close to being poor enough to drop. Not sure what game you were watching tbh.
Oh definitely. It would be madness for anyone to be anything other than ecstatic that we have either of them. I'm not sure why it always has to be one or the other, especially when it's now been settled once and for all that Rashford's best position is LF and Martial's is CF.
A lot of people were calling Rashford "Rashford", "Rashbeck", "Rashbonlahor" not too long ago. The new one on Twitter these days is "PRashford" due to his charitable campaigns and using his status to talk about actual real problems in his country, which some have taken as some kind of mastermind PR campaign, which is being used to keep him at the club, despite being "trash", according to their opinions.
The agendas are real, just like some people still want Martial replaced.
'Misplace passes'? He skilfully assisted two of Martial's three goals against Sheffield. He's been providing key passes in every game. If anything his passing game is the bit that has looked sharpest - it's his shooting and running that are (understandably) a little rusty.
Unless you think generally misplacing passes merits dropping, in which case I assume Bruno is at the top of your list to be benched?
I'm aware of that.
As I said, regardless of the reasons for his development, he should have hit 20 goals a season by the time he was 20-21, not at 24 going on 25, he was that good at 19. I'm actually not even really blaming him for it (well I do believe he didn't come prepared his first season with Mourinho and he had off-the-field baby mama issues that clearly messed him up), it's more to do with how he has been managed, and the team he has had around him as well, but I had higher expectations for him when he came here as a 19 years old and he's just now starting to fulfill them, mostly for reasons beyond his control. It's another good illustration of how talent is not everything and that there are so many factors including the coaches you work with that can slow down or derail the development of a player.
The people who seem to think he needs to be upgraded really puzzle me. There are probably only a handful of players in football that I think would be a no brained upgrade and pretty much none of them are actually available. He’s a fantastic finisher with an elite skill that compliments it (dribbling) and is excellent in a fluid system. Seems some here are still nostalgic about having another RVN that needs to just poach 30 goals a year but those types don’t really exist anymore at the top level, unless your name is Lewandowski
That's correct but that is what the British press is like. They used to say the same thing about Rooney being better than Ronaldo so I wouldn't take them seriously, they have that bias towards their home grown players. Fortunately football is played on grass not in the media and Martial is proving that already. He is lucky to be coached by a Goal scorer Ole and he will improve with that. I think he is maturing as a person now and that will bring positive changes to his game. I reckon Martial will tear it up next season, Ole is firing him up. At the moment he is the 9 and he must grab that opportunity. I rate him highly and not worried about him at all. He is a real talent and real finisher.
He's hitting those numbers now though so does it really matter how long it took him?
I agree. But there seems to be a constant conversation about life after Martial, at least on here, and in the press too. Not even in comparison to Rashford, I’m just bringing up Rashford because I’m not sure how, objectively, the praise for Rashford’s performances has been unanimous and the same people are never close to being satisfied with Martial. He hasn’t been any worse. Both have been quality this season, both have passed their big tests this season I feel. Importantly, generally speaking, when they have been able to be on the pitch together, they have delivered. The majority of their troubles have come when one was missing. Partially because Ole refused to play Greenwood alongside the remaining one when the other was injured, so we had a rubbish front line with only one player who is capable of scoring a goal.
I get that at United especially, people have an academy bias, so that likely plays a part. I think Martial, like Pogba, is one of out good players that a lot of our fans have an irrational dislike for. From the comments over the years, my only interpretation is that these players don’t fit the profile of ‘commitment’ - always an issue of ‘disinterest’ and the like, which is why people haven’t warmed to him. His poor games, like Pogba, are concluded to be ‘lack of effort’ or can’t be bothered, and the good ones are because he feels like it on any given day. These things won’t endear you to a player, but at the same time, these are things that have not been qualified by any sort of logic. Running and tackling takes a footballer an awfully long way with United fans I’ve noticed, so probably that.
I think the 'running and tackling' bias is true, although I'm more forgiving of it. I don't think it's because football fans are so stupid that they think every player who looks busy must be better than any player who doesn't. I think it's just that when a player has a brilliant attacking game, maybe chalking up some goals and assists, if that player is also a constant noticeable presence harrying and defending and making runs, it gives the sense that they are all over the game, dominating every aspect of it. When a player makes the same collection of key attacking contributions but is quiet in between them, they only appear to have been clinical, or deadly, or whatever. You couldn't pick two more textbook examples of that phenomenon than Rashford (the former) and Martial (the latter).
It's doubly unfair, of course, since these days Martial is so much more active than he used to be. Still probably less than Rashford, but as much as pretty much any other attacking player at the club. It's just that we've all got very used to the idea that Martial waits for the play to come to him and doesn't contribute defensively, and can't change our opinions of him. I've definitely been guilty of this one until quite recently.
And lastly I think there is a subconscious hangover from Ronaldo at this club still, such that the sense is that any foreign player who becomes a true star of world football will at some point leave for Madrid/Barca. I'm pretty sure this must play into that feeling you're talking about in some posts that at some point we will be playing without Martial, whereas Rashford is assumed to be here until he's geriatric. It's unfair because unlike someone like Pogba, Martial has never really been pursued by another big club and has never given any indication at all that he would be interested in leaving.
Of course it matters. When Martial came in, he was already close to being able to hit those figures, especially if he didn't have to shift to the left wing because Depay was complete dross. I really believe he could have hit those figures by his second season, which means he's getting into the France squad for the Euro/WC, which means he's further along in his development in shorter time, which simply improves him as a player year to year with confidence and a resume behind him by present time. It definitely matters, that's not even a question in my mind, but the fact that he's here now is still very good and matters, but it feels like he's had at least a couple of years wasted due to how he was managed mainly by Mourinho, who's been a complete virus to the development of this entire team.
I’ve been on this forum in one capacity or another for nearly 18 years now. Fans are seduced by slide tackles. Alan Smith was a terrible player and a cult hero to many. Gabriel Heinze was a terrible footballer. He was a left-back with no pace, no skill, no delivery but flew into tackles and he was a hero too. A number of people on here have declared that Scott McTominay is their favourite player. Each to their own, but what sort of football fan has Scott McTominay as their favourite footballer?!
I agree with what you said about the inherent fear that people seem to have of Real and Barcelona. I‘ve said before that I think Pogba has particularly suffered as a result of this, I dunno, inferiority complex, I think. Aside from Pogba, you can go back to 2013 during Januzaj’s first season and the issue of his contract was going about. There were no links to Real at all, but you had several posters saying that ‘he can sign a deal and he’s still young enough to join Madrid in a few years if he wants’. The fear was there. Same thing was said during Martial’s first season.
Typically, at least a few years ago, there were two levels of good player. There was good player, then there was superstar that belongs at Real or Barca. Pogba always fitted into the latter category. This is why the first few pages of his ‘linked to United’ thread was full of ‘will never happen, he’ll go to Madrid’. When you automatically assume a player is enamoured with Real and they are enamoured with him, it will be hard to warm to him. And I don’t think United fans have, generally speaking, ever treated Pogba like one of their own. He’s been treated like a Madrid player on loan since the start, so when the conversation started later, it was the confirmation many needed from their fears. We like to say we are the ‘biggest club in the world’, but basically, there is an insecurity of genuine superstars. We seem to love this winning with underdogs model. If Mbappé joined is tomorrow, many United fans would, in their heart, feel that it doesn’t seem right, and he couldn’t possibly want to be here, only here for money etc. Give a few bad performances and the line would be drawn straight away between performance and ‘doesn’t want to be here’.
The way I see it, the ‘United way’ is to somehow try and win, and have great players, but players not so great that Real and Barca may want them. I don’t think Martial is in that group, but perhaps he once was, and the link between performance and interest was drawn a while ago. In reality, I’m sure Martial and Pogba were delighted to join us, but they are talented and foreign, so there is some distrust. It would almost be better if they were a bit shitter, but just ran harder. Because we’d still win and lose games with them, but we’ll feel more safe that they are ‘ours’.
He will get close to 20 league goals without taking any setpieces, in a season which he started at age 23 (and became 24 halfway through it) after missing 2 months with injuries.
I know exactly why some people are claiming he is almost 25, but it is not subtle and is clearly biased when judging the season gone by.
I know exactly why some people are claiming he is almost 25, but it is not subtle and is clearly biased when judging the season gone by.
I agree with what you say.
Most compliments for Martial are always conditional, with a "still not a natural no. 9" clause, which to me is ridiculous
This.
There is always a but or still that usually follow up after he gets a compliment.
The man has literally been scoring in every home games for months now and consistently been scoring since we got our shit together yet the narrative is always about him being inconsistent which is a blatant lie at this point.
Talks about any new incoming attacking player and the assumption on the Caf is that he'll be the one to be displaced. Get talked about as if he's some run of the mill talent and easily the most disposable one of our front 3 when in reality he's actually the most talented attacker we have (19 year old Martial teared up the league, people seem to forget this and let his years under Mourinho cloud their judgements).
Dude got almost everything. Finishing, dribbling, technique, close control etc, yet he get talked about as if he's some average goal scorer with nothing much else to him.
It's also because he didn't play much (before anyone comes up wiith number of appearances, check his mins). He played around 50% of available mins, his goal scoring record was always good. This season he is undisputed starter playing whenever they are available, so his output has increased.
Credit to Ole and coaching staff for trusting Martial to lead the line, credit to Martial for showing how good he is.
18 goal contribution in 2200 mins and he is more than just goal scorer.
People go on and on about how this natural goal scorers but IMO Martial is perfect fit for Rashford and Greenwood.
He’s great. Will only get better when he gets over the shock of finally playing in a good team. That goal is one of the best he’s scored for us. He really does love that top right corner
25 Is old now apparently.
This.
I do think some people are really spoiled by Ronaldo, Messi and to some extent, Mbappe. Kindly have a good look at those three with their teams that developed them. I know we spendlt a lot of effort for Ronaldo and he was also once labeled one trick pony and fake Ronaldo.
Thank god for Ole and the coaches now for restoring faith in players to develop. Shudder to think if Mou is still incharge.
I can't see anywhere in the post you quoted where I suggested that. I'm simply stating the facts when we're comparing Greenwood's years of development ahead of him, in better hands most likely, compared to Martial (who will continue to develop) since he's been here, that as talented as Martial may be, Greenwood will most likely be ahead of him at Martial's age. It's not even a bad thing, I think Martial will thrive with Greenwood and vice-versa. People think that Greenwood's growth is going to be a threat to Martial, and I think they misunderstand how much Tony helps the offense and the other forwards.
It seems we half our time here comparing our own players.
Isn't Martial 24
Yes but who looks at age that way? It's common knowledge that you're supposed to refer not the age that the person has attained at this moment in time but the age that he will 6 months/1 year/5 years from now, to give a better picture to people as to his 'true' age and not the fake one determined by his date if birth and other such silly stuff.
A trademark Martial goal for number 20. What a beauty that was, power, spin, accuracy and hitting the bar before going in. A couple of tap-ins will do now, but only banger is acceptable for 25He’s great. Will only get better when he gets over the shock of finally playing in a good team. That goal is one of the best he’s scored for us. He really does love that top right corner
Pogba is the most talented, but yes Martial has a decent claim for 2nd.
Rashford had a 2 month period where he was fantastic and better than Martial has been this season, so he got a lot of hype during that period. Of course, on the flip side of that Rashford has been more inconsistent as well, having a couple of periods where he wasn't playing particularly well at all. Martial on the other hand has been fairly consistent, except for those first couple of games after Rashford got injured and he really struggled by himself (no Rashford, no Pogba, no Bruno).
In other words, one might say that Martial is a human being. On that note, it's so great to see the exuberance with which he's currently playing. I agree with those who say he's been just as good as Rashford. Though they're different players, it's clear that a good relationship has developed between them, along with Bruno, Greenwood and, on recent evidence, Pogba. The team is oozing with potential. Forgive me if I've rambled off a little...
Season isn’t a sprint though, and it’s a lot longer than two months. The numbers don’t lie. They both have 15 league goals, and 6 of Rashford’s have come from the spot, while none of Martial’s have.
I have no intent on criticising Rashford per se, but there’s a clear disparity in reporting is all. Both have had great personal best seasons, I just think Martial has this ‘needs to do more’ tag permanently slapped on him, and to shed it, he’d need to do a lot more than Rashford does I think.
Nail on the head. I've been sort of thinking around this for a while now, but never really articulated it like you have above. You're exactly right that United fans treat Pogba like he's on loan from Madrid. And not just in terms of the negativity either, but also the particular tone of praise. It's almost like gratitude, like 'enjoy him while he's here'. There's respect for him but not the pride in him which is so evident - and rightfully so - around Rashford or, say Wan Bissaka.
Personally I guess I just instinctively think so differently about us. I sort of accept our current inferiority to some of the European giants but without the 'complex', without feeling too bad about it. I never really expect our stars to leave if we're playing well, possibly because I project how much joy watching us play well brings me onto those players and find it hard to imagine why they would want to leave that behind. It's probably equally false thinking but in the opposite direction. But it does make the caf a bewildering place sometimes.
Exactly, and it's something to keep in mind about Greenwood as well or any other young, talented player that looks a sure thing, there are so many things that can get in the way of somebody's development whether it's coaching, just life as a celebrity, etc.
This is as stable as the team has felt since I've been on this forum, where there's clear direction, transfer moves that follow a certain philosophy, signings that are actually performing, etc. The future is bright, and I think Martial and company are in better hands with Ole in charge of their development than any other coach they've had, regardless of what people think of his tactical prowess.
Fecking love him. Gets unwarranted criticism.
This is so true, Whatever he does there is always 'needs to do more' or not a natural number 9 tag attached to him both by media and the people here on the forum. Rashford had great 2 months and suddenly everyone is calling him one of the best in the world and his inconsistency is never talked about specially on media. 40% of Rashford goal has been penalties and I have no problem with that but narrative spouted out against Martial exactly points towards that academy and English bias.
If this is true, why is Bruno the most loved player at the club and Lingard the most hated?
Wait until Bruno stops being productive for a few months.
JLingz had plenty of defenders even after years of mediocrity. It’s only for the last year or so once his numbers became indefensible did the fanbase as a whole gave up on him.
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