You don't know what a title winning striker is but you know what a title winning squad is?? Anyways agree to disagree. I'm curious who you think the one or two signings should be to challenge for the title next year though
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I was just matching your statement. We have a good squad already but lack depth and quality in 2 areas. We already bought bruno for one of those areas and will need to buy again for the RW. So I guess Sancho and probably another defender to partner Maguire. I like our current defenders but none of them are great partners to Maguire. Im thinking a player more aggressive than lindelof. Im also assuming we keep Pogba.
He's won the FA cup, League Cup and the Europa League, those are titles, so he is a titles winning striker
So they are inches from winning the title without a title winning striker, even without a striker.
Yet we somehow need a title winning striker
Confusing.
I mean if those are the titles you prefer us winning. Wasn't even our striker those times
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I mean its confusing if you don't bother looking at the rest of the post. Anyways we need a "title winning striker" because our system involves playing with a no.9 while Liverpool's system doesn't need a title winning striker because their system doesn't play with a striker.
Interesting you'd want a CB. "Quality" Depth in other areas might be a problem though. But i can see us in top 3 easily if we sign in those two positions
He actually was much better than people realize. He made a goal/assist every 81.minute he played. Very strong numbers for a new striker that had to play out of position a lot.
Keep Pogba, sign Sancho and Kane and we'd have one of our most entertaining sides in a long time which would be good enough to push for the highest honours. Maybe be a bit short in the CDM department but if Pogba goes then we could look at Ndidi which would strengthen our CB pairing.
Seeing alot of rubbish on here as per usual. Let's make it very simple, Martial has the 2nd most goals in all competitions from any player in England's top flight since the beginning of December. Only Gab Jesus has more than him, and if you consider that his partner Rashford was injured for half of that spell and that Martial himself was injured for 2 months himself at the beginning of the season - you can imagine how many goals/goal contributions he could provide in a season where he stays fit and actually plays with the likes of Pogba, Rashford and Bruno more regularly. He's a top player and learning well as a centre forward, this break has come at an exrtremely unfortunate time for him as he was starting to show signs that he was ready to make that jump to the next level. Scored home and away against Chelsea and City in the league this season and has 9 goals against the top 6 clubs since the start of the 18/19 season. It's not difficult to grasp if you can look at things rationally and put your hatred aside.
THREAD:
Marcus Rashford and Anthony Martial are seen to be two sides of the workrate coin with the former being praised and the latter be criticised in that regard.
However, are we missing something? Is there more to it? UtdArena delves into the off-ball numbers.
The seven sections in discussion will be:
off-ball runs
pressing opposition
challenging for the ball
tracking back due to runners
recoveries made
one-on-one defending
loose-ball challenges
NOTE: I have taken figures from this season only. This is with the idea that both players have reached an upper level in goal productivity and, yet, the narrative of their workrate has remained with some fans even advocating the view that Martial should be replaced.
Off-Ball Runs
The first idea conveyed through this binary perspective is not that Rashford makes runs off the ball but that Martial does not or does so very little. However, Rashford (12.41) — praised for his runs — only averages 1.57 more per 90 than Martial (10.84).
A general rule is that a team's centre forward should lead the team in off-ball runs. However, Martial's game is focused on coming short and facilitating for Rashford and others. Yet, he still makes 10+ runs per game. This highlights his workrate in that he plays both ways.
If Rashford had an archtype akin to Neymar and Martial akin to Mbappe then Martial would comfortably make more runs than Rashford even with their current workrate. Yet, with opposing archtypes Martial is still only slightly behind Rashford.
Lastly, Martial often does not receive an attempted pass after his run and this usually stems from a lack of quality. However, the numbers before Bruno (16.56%) and after Bruno (38.49%) are drastically different. The same will be the case once Pogba returns.
Pressing
Another aspect Rashford is heavily praised for is his pressing off the ball. Yet, he does not attempt more presses (4.77) than Martial (6.65) who presses at a higher rate. The centre forward should set the tone and Martial does yet, again, he is not given credit for it.
This 1.88 difference is somewhat significant as Rashford's 4.77 puts him in the 77th percentile for left wingers around Europe whereas Martial's rate puts him in the 89th percentile for centre forwards. However, we find the former being praised and the latter being criticised.
Challenging Opposition
Rashford (2.69) averages more off-ball challenges than Martial (2.36) which is a theme seen around Europe when comparing teams’ wingers to their centre forwards. Yet, the difference is only 0.33.
0.33 is a somewhat significant difference yet the point of this thread is not to highlight that Rashford works more off the ball — this is known — but it is to show Martial's workrate is considerably higher than what people given him credit for.
Tracking Back
Rashford (1.79) tracks back significantly more than Martial (0.98) but, again, Martial's 0.98 — effectively once a game — is largely made up of tracking full backs (87.81%) whilst he is a centre forward.
A comparison with Firmino (1.37) shows that Martial tracks back only 0.39 times less per 90 than one of the best off-ball forwards in the world. However, Liverpool fans appreciate their forward whilst United fans unjustly criticise theirs.
In addition, Firmino ranks in the 94th percentile for centre forwards in Europe whilst Martial ranks 81st. For wingers, Rashford ranks 83rd. The difference is inconsequential between the latter two. However, the narrative that Martial is lazy continues.
One-on-One Defending
Rashford (0.93) averages more than Martial (0.47) in this regard which is to be expected as Rashford, a winger, will have to duel with full backs whereas Martial is not tasked with this. Yet, Martial still averages 0.47 a game. Why?
The answer is that 87.6% of Martial's one-on-one defending comes against full backs, too, and 76.8% of those is when he is playing as a centre forward but covering for wingers both left and right. However, this goes unseen by fans who claim “he is lazy.”
Chasing Loose Balls
Loose balls occur mostly amongst offensive-minded players due to them playing in tighter areas and, thus, increasing the likelihood of a loose ball. Consequently, those who challenge most for loose balls are defenders and midfielders.
Also, the pitch can loosely be separated into three thirds: offensive; midfield; and defensive. The defensive third is a high-retention zone (HR), the midfield third is a medium-retention zone (MR) and the offensive third is a low-retention zone (LR).
Martial operates in a high-retention zone which means possession is kept and less opportunities for loose balls occur. Yet, he (2.53) effectively averages the same as Rashford (2.65). This is because 45.38% of his occurs in his own half and 67.39% of them come from midfield.
To summarise:
Marcus Rashford's workrate exceeds Anthony Martial's and there is no doubting that. However, the narrative that Rashford works hard for the team whereas Martial is lazy is, by all accounts, not true. Rather, the opposite is true in that Martial works hard, too.
Fans who accuse Martial of laziness are, in fact, being lazy in their analysis of his off-ball game. This is because not only is the fact different to their narrative but it actually opposes their narrative. Despite that, a large amount of them promote this narrative as a fact.
Marcus Rashford and Anthony Martial are seen to be two sides of the workrate coin with the former being praised and the latter be criticised in that regard.
However, are we missing something? Is there more to it? UtdArena delves into the off-ball numbers.
The seven sections in discussion will be:
off-ball runs
pressing opposition
challenging for the ball
tracking back due to runners
recoveries made
one-on-one defending
loose-ball challenges
NOTE: I have taken figures from this season only. This is with the idea that both players have reached an upper level in goal productivity and, yet, the narrative of their workrate has remained with some fans even advocating the view that Martial should be replaced.
Off-Ball Runs
The first idea conveyed through this binary perspective is not that Rashford makes runs off the ball but that Martial does not or does so very little. However, Rashford (12.41) — praised for his runs — only averages 1.57 more per 90 than Martial (10.84).
A general rule is that a team's centre forward should lead the team in off-ball runs. However, Martial's game is focused on coming short and facilitating for Rashford and others. Yet, he still makes 10+ runs per game. This highlights his workrate in that he plays both ways.
If Rashford had an archtype akin to Neymar and Martial akin to Mbappe then Martial would comfortably make more runs than Rashford even with their current workrate. Yet, with opposing archtypes Martial is still only slightly behind Rashford.
Lastly, Martial often does not receive an attempted pass after his run and this usually stems from a lack of quality. However, the numbers before Bruno (16.56%) and after Bruno (38.49%) are drastically different. The same will be the case once Pogba returns.
Pressing
Another aspect Rashford is heavily praised for is his pressing off the ball. Yet, he does not attempt more presses (4.77) than Martial (6.65) who presses at a higher rate. The centre forward should set the tone and Martial does yet, again, he is not given credit for it.
This 1.88 difference is somewhat significant as Rashford's 4.77 puts him in the 77th percentile for left wingers around Europe whereas Martial's rate puts him in the 89th percentile for centre forwards. However, we find the former being praised and the latter being criticised.
Challenging Opposition
Rashford (2.69) averages more off-ball challenges than Martial (2.36) which is a theme seen around Europe when comparing teams’ wingers to their centre forwards. Yet, the difference is only 0.33.
0.33 is a somewhat significant difference yet the point of this thread is not to highlight that Rashford works more off the ball — this is known — but it is to show Martial's workrate is considerably higher than what people given him credit for.
Tracking Back
Rashford (1.79) tracks back significantly more than Martial (0.98) but, again, Martial's 0.98 — effectively once a game — is largely made up of tracking full backs (87.81%) whilst he is a centre forward.
A comparison with Firmino (1.37) shows that Martial tracks back only 0.39 times less per 90 than one of the best off-ball forwards in the world. However, Liverpool fans appreciate their forward whilst United fans unjustly criticise theirs.
In addition, Firmino ranks in the 94th percentile for centre forwards in Europe whilst Martial ranks 81st. For wingers, Rashford ranks 83rd. The difference is inconsequential between the latter two. However, the narrative that Martial is lazy continues.
One-on-One Defending
Rashford (0.93) averages more than Martial (0.47) in this regard which is to be expected as Rashford, a winger, will have to duel with full backs whereas Martial is not tasked with this. Yet, Martial still averages 0.47 a game. Why?
The answer is that 87.6% of Martial's one-on-one defending comes against full backs, too, and 76.8% of those is when he is playing as a centre forward but covering for wingers both left and right. However, this goes unseen by fans who claim “he is lazy.”
Chasing Loose Balls
Loose balls occur mostly amongst offensive-minded players due to them playing in tighter areas and, thus, increasing the likelihood of a loose ball. Consequently, those who challenge most for loose balls are defenders and midfielders.
Also, the pitch can loosely be separated into three thirds: offensive; midfield; and defensive. The defensive third is a high-retention zone (HR), the midfield third is a medium-retention zone (MR) and the offensive third is a low-retention zone (LR).
Martial operates in a high-retention zone which means possession is kept and less opportunities for loose balls occur. Yet, he (2.53) effectively averages the same as Rashford (2.65). This is because 45.38% of his occurs in his own half and 67.39% of them come from midfield.
To summarise:
Marcus Rashford's workrate exceeds Anthony Martial's and there is no doubting that. However, the narrative that Rashford works hard for the team whereas Martial is lazy is, by all accounts, not true. Rather, the opposite is true in that Martial works hard, too.
Fans who accuse Martial of laziness are, in fact, being lazy in their analysis of his off-ball game. This is because not only is the fact different to their narrative but it actually opposes their narrative. Despite that, a large amount of them promote this narrative as a fact.
"lazy and doesn't work hard"
good to see the statistical evidence disproving all the rubbish regurgitated by agenda driven posters
[@utdarena] on twitter
Surely a striker has far more opportunitites to 'press' than' a winger?
What is classed as a press? A jog towards a player with the ball?
What is classed as a press? A jog towards a player with the ball?
Why compare mainly with Rashford of this season?
Tbh both are overall lazy in pressing and defending this season -- Rashford is more worse, while Martial is better and improving now yet still inconsistent in pressing and defending -- at times he put in the effort, at times he just laze around. Rashford's workrate in pressings used to be consistently good before, he's doing it less and less ever since Mou's 2nd season, great again during Ole's caretaker months then back to declining from then on.
Tbh both are overall lazy in pressing and defending this season -- Rashford is more worse, while Martial is better and improving now yet still inconsistent in pressing and defending -- at times he put in the effort, at times he just laze around. Rashford's workrate in pressings used to be consistently good before, he's doing it less and less ever since Mou's 2nd season, great again during Ole's caretaker months then back to declining from then on.
According to the analysis, both were in the upper percentile in Europe, meaning neither is lazy.
That's some good stuff. Calling Martial lazy is incredibly lazy analysis.
His defending has improved a lot too. It is his demeanor I guess that some people do not like. Just because he does not run like a headless chicken is why some do not like him.
In the first half of this video,
You see an area of the pitch where Martial becomes harder to deal with as a defender.
He plays just in front of the box and not inside it, he holds on to the ball before laying it on to the other forwards.
The passes, the first touches, and the dribbles become more complex - if he has a) the pass being played in to him, which will happen since he is the central striker linking two wider forwards B) he has the natural ability to fall back to the rhythm that the forwards like Rashfords like Greenwood will use as making forward runs off in that rhythm too.
I was impressed by how he led the line by himself without Rashford but if that remains our main tactic then Martial may not be the best striker for it long term. However, I absolutely loved what I just started to see when Rashford was playing on the opposite side to Greenwood/James and Martial was trying to play like a glue to two wide strikers rather than score goals all by himself which to me is not completely his style. Unfortunately, we didnt even have a quality CAM for that and Rashford unnecessarily got injured.
Don't see him as our striker option long term. Think Sancho (presuming we get him) and Rashford will be mainstays in the team for years, with Martial being the one that is replaceable.
Exactly why stats are god awful proof of anything. Not to mention comparing him with Rashford who hasn’t played for god knows how long and especially while we’ve been playing better as a team.
Don’t get me wrong, Martial has had some cracking games this season, but this is crappy stat use once again and it’s tiresome.
I just cannot understand, year after year, the need to use our players as sticks to hit each other with.
The whole excitement for me is the idea of getting to see them all playing together, sparking off one another, making disgusting things happen. Rashford, Martial, Bruno, Pogba
Add Sancho and I honestly can't see how we could possibly fail to score a fecktonne of goals. But even without him it's mouthwatering. And Greenwood on the bench ffs.
The whole excitement for me is the idea of getting to see them all playing together, sparking off one another, making disgusting things happen. Rashford, Martial, Bruno, Pogba
Add Sancho and I honestly can't see how we could possibly fail to score a fecktonne of goals. But even without him it's mouthwatering. And Greenwood on the bench ffs.I’m not sure how they would register that stat because there is more to pressing than just “Jogging to the man with the ball” cutting passing lanes, setting traps organising the press. All those things for me are things Martials good at involving pressing. He’s very good at taking up position to block lanes and pretty diligent at it.
Some I think view pressing as just some guy running full sprint chasing a ball back and forth as it’s passed about between defenders.
By far the worst thread on this forum.
Definitely.
By a long shot. It’s actually depressing reading some of the stuff written about this guy. Close to 20 goals and still getting shitted on.
Crappy stat in what regard? Even if we dont compare him to Rashford who you say hasnt played, his off the ball percentages are in the high percentile in Europe. He isnt a lazy player. Thats it.
I think most want him to do that thing were Daniel James runs to whoever has the ball even if it takes him from the right wing to left. Nobody in the team has the lungs of Fred and James. its better to press with more intelligence.
Think it's near the Ole outs threads.
It's his off the ball movement and unwillingness to adapt his game. If he made those runs, he would potentially be the most dangerous striker in the league, but he doesn't and instead has to dribble his way past two defenders ( works 1/5 times) for him to be effective outside the box. he doesn't score tap ins and instead relies on his technical ability to score. In addition to that, he somehow lacks creativity as well, not truly seeking out his team mates. People try to act like he's a Firmino type of player, but Firmino creates lots of chances. Martial doesn't. The other day I saw a thread where someone said he was way better than Saha. What annoys me about this is that people only look at his game off of his technical skills and like Phil Jones( his was physicality) assume that he will flesh out the rest of his game so already appoint to him to a spot that he has never proven to be. Essentially, he is overrated, talented but overrated.
I would like him here with another striker actively rotating with him. If a truly top tier no.9 becomes available, I would not be opposed to ditching him.
He is not going to make those runs when the passes are not coming from midfield. This is exactly what RVP was saying about United now. Of course this was before Bruno.
Not sure how anyone can watch Martial this season and accuse him of being unwilling to adapt his game
That's an excuse, Rashford makes them. Martial does not even attempt to. In the short time he's been here even Ighalo has made them. Lukaku also used to make them. Martial is simply not good off the ball. It's a part of his game that needs to develop, but he's already 24.
Absolute shite talk. Martial has scored plenty this season because of good off the ball movement.
First goal of the season vs Wolves. Recent headed goal Vs Chelsea. And so many more. Every player can't be a Luis Suarez and you don't need 11 of them in your team.
Fellow players seem to rate him more than many of our own fans 
He's also quite clearly improved his off the ball movement. I see no reason why next season (or whenever this season gets going again) he doesn't improve further. He literally has all the raw ingredients and most of them have come together already, he just needs to work out the last few.
And how many games did he start as a striker in those games?
And " Title winning " is the league cup for you?
I think it was because at a point last season, when everyone was gunning for Lukaku, calling him lazy (this and that) and saying he doesn't run enough, when the stats were drawn up for distance covered per 90, Martial had the lowest average for distance covered per 90 minutes out of all top-flight forwards that season with just 8.4 km. It was only 1km per game less than Rashford however Rashford was making twice as many high intensity sprints.
Now I don't know if Martial was playing injured last season but he has definitely improved in that regard so it may have just been that he wasn't at the required fitness levels and this year he is, so can cope with the physical demands better. But yeah, I think the "lazy" jibes came from the release of those stats, partially.
His running stats last season were low. No doubt, can really guess at the reason. My annoyance stems from people's failure to look at this season and just keep dragging out the same old shite that is no longer applicable.
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