Angel Gomes Watch

Gordon S said:
Me too, never really understood the obsession we seem to have with filling our midfield with players the size of basketball players.
Oh, Fellaini is big, he can control things in the middle of the pitch i am sure!! Mctominays size must make him a suitable starter in a team with the ambition to win titles, right?
Pogba was always more of an attacking player with tons of flair, creativity and swagger, but, and that´s a big but, he is also huge so that means we need to play him as a regular cm with lots of defensive duties.
Would love to have players with quicker feet and top level technical skills in areas where it is important and could improve our build up from deep and overall possession play.
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Has it ever been in Utd’s ‘DNA’ to control matches with more technical players? From the outside looking in it seems more of a conscious effort to continuously build sides more suited to fast transition football. Usually takes a manager coming in with strict ideas to completely change a clubs style. Happened with us with Sarri (probably for the worse).

To be fair to Fellaini he had absolutely unreal technique.. with his chest :lol:
 
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If you really want him back, its easy. The club needs to pay his faith healer to tell him his future lies with United. I know it sounds mean but it is what it is.
 
Gordon S said:
I stand corrected!
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"Organising" a loan move could mean nothing more than him finding a club willing to take him.

United would still need to negotiate and set targets for playing time, and it'd need to be a club able to give him football more suitable than our U23s.

Without knowing any details other than the rumoured contact his agent had, it's not exactly an indictment on the club that we didn't authorise these supposed moves.
 
Alex99 said:
He literally went on loan his first season at Lille.

The issue wasn't a loan. The issue was English football, which funnily enough, is what United needed to develop him for.
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He went on loan because the owner Gerard Lopez, owned both Lille and Boavista at the time. Going on loan to Boavista gave him a guarantee of first team football. So I don't see your point about English football. United do not own any other club. Thus they cannot guarantee minutes for any player. Lille could guarantee him minutes with Boavista. I don't think this experience says anything about his ability to play in English football. Gomes was really smart about his choice as he needed first team experience.
 
1905 said:
Has it ever been in Utd’s ‘DNA’ to control matches with more technical players? From the outside looking in it seems more of a conscious effort to continuously build sides more suited to fast transition football. Usually takes a manager coming in with strict ideas to completely change a clubs style. Happened with us with Sarri (probably for the worse).

To be fair to Fellaini he had absolutely unreal technique.. with his chest :lol:
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No, not in a Spanish type of way. I don´t want that boring possession based football, i want a quicker more direct style.

I am not sure anything is conscious with regards to the teams we´ve built lately. Last decade at least it has just felt like they are desperate to please the new manager that is in the job for 2-3 years. The players we get for the manager is here for much longer usually. Since the board doesn´t seem to have clue what type of style we should have on the pitch, every manager we get is very different from the last and we end up with extremely unbalanced squads, where there are very few players really thriving and it constantly feels like our list of deadwood players is never really below 15 players.
 
In Rainbows said:
He went on loan because the owner Gerard Lopez, owned both Lille and Boavista at the time. Going on loan to Boavista gave him a guarantee of first team football. So I don't see your point about English football. United do not own any other club. Thus they cannot guarantee minutes for any player. Lille could guarantee him minutes with Boavista. I don't think this experience says anything about his ability to play in English football. Gomes was really smart about his choice as he needed first team experience.
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A player of his age and his size was not getting regular game time at any English club prior to his departure, that's my point about English football. He was probably ripe for a Championship or equivalent loan move the summer he left (perhaps even a club like Boavista), but there we are.

I think he made the best decision for his career, but I also think the club didn't do anything wrong in their handling of him. I think people forget that he was still only 19 when he left.

Not aimed at you, but suggestions he was "clearly" too good for the U23s a good two or three seasons prior to leaving, when he was 16-17 years old, are laughable, as are suggestions he should have been going out on loan at those ages. At best, he could have had a loan move in his final season with the club.

He's clearly a very technically gifted footballer, but a few good performances in what is basically a youth tournament does not make him good enough for Manchester United (yet, at least). I've not seen much of him at Lille, but a quick scan of his match ratings through the season don't really indicate that he's standing out there, although playing so regularly is obviously good for him.

For comparison, Max Aarons is in the squad for this tournament, which would suggest to me that Jadon Sancho (who is a couple of months younger) was technically eligible for selection. I would suspect he would have also been tearing it up at this tournament, but we know he's hardly pulled up trees for United.
 
This U21 team play some very good football. Tuned in for half an hour and some of the movement, options available on the ball and taking it on the half turn was very good. Not things typically associated with England sides.

Gomes looks very much part of that. Great technique.
 
Abraxas said:
This U21 team play some very good football. Tuned in for half an hour and some of the movement, options available on the ball and taking it on the half turn was very good. Not things typically associated with England sides.

Gomes looks very much part of that. Great technique.
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I think even the line ups have reflected that. Garner playing at RB and then they haven't been really been playing with traditional wide players (aside from Madueke). A lot of fluidity and seemingly lots of attacking central midfield type of players. It's been interesting to watch and given I haven't follow the U21s much recently, I've been pleasantly surprised.
 
Alex99 said:
I think he made the best decision for his career, but I also think the club didn't do anything wrong in their handling of him.
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There's no point discussing this again. Ole mismanaged the situation by opting to give way too many minutes to dead-ends like Pereira and Lingard. They offered nothing, so we had nothing to lose by playing Gomes instead in many of those games.
 
Eplel said:
There's no point discussing this again. Ole mismanaged the situation by opting to give way too many minutes to dead-ends like Pereira and Lingard. They offered nothing, so we had nothing to lose by playing Gomes instead in many of those games.
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Pereira and Lingard were the better players whether you like it or not. Even at the moment Pereira is the better player. He has lot of talent but he wasn't ready to start then and wouldn't start now.
 
Eplel said:
There's no point discussing this again. Ole mismanaged the situation by opting to give way too many minutes to dead-ends like Pereira and Lingard. They offered nothing, so we had nothing to lose by playing Gomes instead in many of those games.
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Ole was under pressure to get results.

While I agree that Lingard and Pereira were given far too many chances by the end, I think people are deluding themselves by thinking Gomes would have faired much, if any better.

I don't remember him looking particularly special in the few chances he did get, and it also wouldn't have simply been a case of giving Lingard's or Pereira's minutes to Gomes.

You're also acting like those seasons were write offs. In his last season we finished third and reaches the semi-finals of three cups. It wasn't a successful season, but it was a hardly a "throw the kids in and see how they do" situation either.

That season was also Solskjaer's first full season.

And again, he was 19 when he left.
 
flappyjay said:
Pereira and Lingard were the better players whether you like it or not. Even at the moment Pereira is the better player. He has lot of talent but he wasn't ready to start then and wouldn't start now.
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But Pereira offered nothing to the team. He didn't develop into anything. Gomes could have developed at least.
 
Eplel said:
Ok, but we have the benefit of hindsight, and Pereira and Lingard did not offer shit. They were a waste of time.
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I don't disagree, but I also think people are kidding themselves by thinking Gomes would have made an impact either.
 
Eplel said:
There's no point discussing this again. Ole mismanaged the situation by opting to give way too many minutes to dead-ends like Pereira and Lingard. They offered nothing, so we had nothing to lose by playing Gomes instead in many of those games.
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He was fighting for champions league spots and still in the CL
 
Crashoutcassius said:
He was fighting for champions league spots and still in the CL
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You won't win by presenting the actual facts to these people.

As far as they're concerned a 16/17 year old Gomes should have been in the first team squad every week.
 
Alex99 said:
He'd have been eaten alive on a loan like that.
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Gomes and the clubs wanting him on loan disagreed, and we'll never find out, but that is in any case why he didn't sign. It has worked out well for him, and it's hard to see him ever breaking into the United midfield, so it was probably the right decision.
 
NotThatSoph said:
Gomes and the clubs wanting him on loan disagreed, and we'll never find out, but that is in any case why he didn't sign. It has worked out well for him, and it's hard to see him ever breaking into the United midfield, so it was probably the right decision.
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Genuinely, what clubs were interested? All I ever remember hearing was his agent "organising" some undefined loan moves and the club stopping them.

I agree he did what was best for him though.
 
Any chance of this guy coming back ? Is he good enough for us ?
 
Alex99 said:
Genuinely, what clubs were interested? All I ever remember hearing was his agent "organising" some undefined loan moves and the club stopping them.

I agree he did what was best for him though.
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The January block was a PL club, supposedly, the summer before I don't know. I can't see him doing much in the PL at the time, but what do I know. We did keep him because we might have needed him, after all.

He wasn't eaten alive in Portugal the summer after, and it's not like he bulked up a ton during those 12 months. I'm sure he could have gotten minutes at some level if that was the goal.
 
NotThatSoph said:
The January block was a PL club, supposedly, the summer before I don't know. I can't see him doing much in the PL at the time, but what do I know. We did keep him because we might have needed him, after all.

He wasn't eaten alive in Portugal the summer after, and it's not like he bulked up a ton during those 12 months. I'm sure he could have gotten minutes at some level if that was the goal.
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I think the only time he could have maybe benefited from a loan while with us was his final season, but even then I don't think a PL move would have been right.
 
I personally love young english players abroad right now just as them for us. Feels like its something england has been missing + a world class manager.
 
Glad to see him doing well, hope he can keep improving and become the player I thought he might.
 
Alex99 said:
You won't win by presenting the actual facts to these people.

As far as they're concerned a 16/17 year old Gomes should have been in the first team squad every week.
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Nice strawman argument mate. Nobody said he should be a starter. We gave had 40 full games between Pereira and Lingard, and they managed 5 goal contributions between them? Are you saying we couldn't have given chances to Gomes?
 
Alex99 said:
Genuinely, what clubs were interested? All I ever remember hearing was his agent "organising" some undefined loan moves and the club stopping them.

I agree he did what was best for him though.
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The club could have organised loans themselves, it's not that fecking hard. Les Parry himself said we didn't do any loans for Garner, Chong and Gomes because Ole wanted them in the team.
 
Hammondo said:
I don't see how he's not above mason technically.
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Sorry I meant overall talent, technical talent for sure they were at least even. Never seen a talent like Mason at youth level though, he was unreal.
 
Eplel said:
Nice strawman argument mate. Nobody said he should be a starter. We gave had 40 full games between Pereira and Lingard, and they managed 5 goal contributions between them? Are you saying we couldn't have given chances to Gomes?
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Neither did I. There have been definite suggestions that he should have been far more than the bit part player he was.

Could he have been given a few more opportunities? Possibly, but I doubt he'd have made a significant contribution or that the extra chances would have been enough to keep him or placate fans like you.

Eplel said:
The club could have organised loans themselves, it's not that fecking hard. Les Parry himself said we didn't do any loans for Garner, Chong and Gomes because Ole wanted them in the team.
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He was in the team. Probably about enough to reflect his ability at the time, with the caveat that he could have possibly picked up a handful more appearances at most.

I've already said a few times that he maybe could have gone on loan in his final season, but ultimately he was a small 18/19 year old at a key stage of his development, in the final year of his contract. It's hardly a surprise they wanted to keep an eye on him.
 
Eplel said:
But Pereira offered nothing to the team. He didn't develop into anything. Gomes could have developed at least.
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Pereira was better when played at #10 or to a lesser extent right wing than he gets credit for on here. He certainly wasn't great or anything and shouldn't have been our starter in those positions, but he also wasn't the pointless waste that people seem to make out. It was only when playing in the deeper midfield role where he really struggled. It's not a coincidence that he did so well at Fulham last season while they played him at #10.

In the first half of 19/20 (the only time he got a proper run in those more attacking areas) it was very noticeable that the team as a whole were better with him there than we were when he either didn't play or was in midfield. Of course that was partly due to his competitors (Lingard and Mata) both being utter shit at the time, but Pereira himself was also doing a decent job. He himself was treated somewhat harshly by Ole, when he got moved back to midfield due to us having a lot of injuries and then after playing poorly there he somehow ended up behind Lingard and Mata again in the attacking spots.

In saying that, Gomes only played two games at #10 that season and was one of our best in both games (probably our MOM in one). I do agree that he should also have got more opportunities in that position, but more at the expanse of Lingard and Mata rather than Pereira. But in a similar way as above, most of his opportunities came on the wing where he struggled.
 
Alex99 said:
Could he have been given a few more opportunities? Possibly, but I doubt he'd have made a significant contribution or that the extra chances would have been enough to keep him or placate fans like you.
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Doesn't matter if you doubt it or not, what matters is the outcome.
We gained nothing by insisting on dead ends, and we lost the chance to develop a good youth player and in turn lost him on a free.
It's pointless to suggest the situation was not mismanaged.
 
MadDogg said:
Pereira was better when played at #10 or to a lesser extent right wing than he gets credit for on here.
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I don't doubt Pereira has done well at Fulham. But for us, he was completely immature and ineffective. He effectively kicked his chances away.
 
Eplel said:
Doesn't matter if you doubt it or not, what matters is the outcome.
We gained nothing by insisting on dead ends, and we lost the chance to develop a good youth player and in turn lost him on a free.
It's pointless to suggest the situation was not mismanaged.
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If it was mismanaged, it wasn't drastically so. At worst he missed out on maybe half a dozen senior appearances or a loan in the second half of the season after we signed Bruno.

People are massively exaggerating Gomes' readiness for regular senior football during his time at United. Bar his last season, (during which he did play in a few more games) he simply wasn't ready.

It's always sad to see a talented player leave, but ultimately I think he was always ending up making the move abroad. It just so happened that his contract was up at pretty much the stage in his development at which he'd have been ready for a loan somewhere.
 
Alex99 said:
People are massively exaggerating Gomes' readiness for regular senior football during his time at United. Bar his last season, (during which he did play in a few more games) he simply wasn't ready.
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Again, you're making assumptions, based on nothing.

I'm tired and out of this discussion.
 
Eplel said:
Again, you're making assumptions, based on nothing.

I'm tired and out of this discussion.
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As you are about how well he'd have got on in the first team.

Weird how that works.

Edit to add: we have evidence of him not being considered ready for regular senior football while he was at United because he wasn't given it.

We have no evidence that he was better than Lingard or Pereira other than you assuming he would have been.
 
Eplel said:
But Pereira offered nothing to the team. He didn't develop into anything. Gomes could have developed at least.
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How do you know he could have developed the way he did in France and Portugal? Or are these assumptions based on nothing?
 
mu4c_20le said:
How do you know he could have developed the way he did in France and Portugal? Or are these assumptions based on nothing?
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You don't understand. Assumptions are allowed as long as the assumption is "Gomes would have been good enough for United if he'd played instead of Lingard/Pereira".

Assumptions are not allowed if they are "Gomes was a very short, very light teenager during his time at United, so his effectiveness in the senior side would have been very limited".
 
tenpoless said:
If you really want him back, its easy. The club needs to pay his faith healer to tell him his future lies with United. I know it sounds mean but it is what it is.
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Died last year (or two) I believe so we may have missed our chance there.
 
tenpoless said:
If you really want him back, its easy. The club needs to pay his faith healer to tell him his future lies with United. I know it sounds mean but it is what it is.
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come on man
 
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