Andy Mitten: The players aren't responding to the manager

gaffs said:
Don't be thin so skinned. We got absolutely bossed. The 115% comment was quite funny.

If you can't laugh, you will cry.
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Thin skinned? I made an observation that he's a gloom merchant. Based on my years of listening to him and his athletic articles including one dropped today.

I know you met him once but there's no need to get overly sensitive about a fair opinion on the guy. I respect him, I also think he's becoming a fear monger. Don't be thin skinned about that :lol:
 
VP89 said:
Thin skinned? I made an observation that he's a gloom merchant. Based on my years of listening to him and his athletic articles including one dropped today.

I know you met him once but there's no need to get overly sensitive about a fair opinion on the guy. I respect him, I also think he's becoming a fear monger. Don't be thin skinned about that :lol:
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He made a joke, a quite funny one about City having 115% possession. Don't take it as being a literal summary of the game. Someone who cant take that as a joke is being thin skinned!

Met him quite a few times actually, home and on Euro aways. He is a solid guy who lives for MUFC and has done great work with United We Stand? You ever bought one?

Is he calling for ETH to be sacked? No.

Listen to the first few mins of the pod again, he said...

United are missing their best players.
Doesn't help that ETH cant play his best team.
City only missing one player
First 6 mins there was a good energy.
 
gaffs said:
He made a joke, a quite funny one about City having 115% possession. Don't take it as being a literal summary of the game. Someone who cant take that as a joke is being thin skinned!

Met him quite a few times actually, home and on Euro aways. He is a solid guy who lives for MUFC and has done great work with United We Stand? You ever bought one?

Is he calling for ETH to be sacked? No.

Listen to the first few mins of the pod again, he said...

United are missing their best players.
Doesn't help that ETH cant play his best team.
City only missing one player
First 6 mins there was a good energy.
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Serious question, why are you so sensitive if someone has a small negative about him?

I said I respect him, he's a great supporter, he has sources, but I found him a gloom merchant of late. And you're hell bent on thinking it's because of just one throwaway joke :lol:. You're reacting all defensive like I burned his house down feck me.

The irony of the whole thing is you said I was thin skinned. Look in a mirror mate.
 
VP89 said:
Serious question, why are you so sensitive if someone has a small negative about him?

I said I respect him, he's a great supporter, he has sources, but I found him a gloom merchant of late. And you're hell bent on thinking it's because of just one throwaway joke :lol:. You're reacting all defensive like I burned his house down feck me.

The irony of the whole thing is you said I was thin skinned. Look in a mirror mate.
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It doesn't matter who it is.

I just find it pathetic that fans get so butt hurt about the tone of a journalist, when talking about their team.

And you didn't answer my question. You ever bought a United We Stand?
 
gaffs said:
It doesn't matter who it is.

I just find it pathetic that fans get so butt hurt about the tone of a journalist, when talking about their team.

And you didn't answer my question. You ever bought a United We Stand?
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Butt hurt? What an imbecilic comment. I say someone's a great fan but become a bit of a gloom merchant recently and that equates to being butt hurt.

You are a bit sensitive aren't you :lol:

I have on various occasions. They aren't selling great at the moment. but whether I did or didn't has absolutely feck all to do with whether one can have an opinion on a journalists pieces. Especially if they are commonly on podcasts and Athletic. That magazine is not the sole barometer of his journalistic pedigree. What an absolute nonsense logic that would be.
 
VP89 said:
Butt hurt? What an imbecilic comment. I say someone's a great fan but become a bit of a gloom merchant recently and that equates to being butt hurt.

You are a bit sensitive aren't you :lol:

I have on various occasions. They aren't selling great at the moment. but whether I did or didn't has absolutely feck all to do with whether one can have an opinion on a journalists pieces. Especially if they are commonly on podcasts and Athletic. That magazine is not the sole barometer of his journalistic pedigree. What an absolute nonsense logic that would be.
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Not at all, I don't get upset about a journalist being a "gloom merchant".

Besides, if you think what Andy was saying on the TotD Podcast, as being gloomy, then you are being thin skinned and are easily triggered by anything negative being said about ETH, which shows by your constant defense of this manager.

He was balanced in his summary of both the City game and the run of games since Feb/March time this year. And if you think it was gloomy, then maybe that's because our performances have been just that.

My point re United We Stand, is that they have vehemently supported all United managers. As editor, Andy sets that direction.
 
gaffs said:
Not at all, I don't get upset about a journalist being a "gloom merchant".

Besides, if you think what Andy was saying on the TotD Podcast, as being gloomy, then you are being thin skinned and are easily triggered by anything negative being said about ETH, which shows by your constant defense of this manager.

He was balanced in his summary of both the City game and the run of games since Feb/March time this year. And if you think it was gloomy, then maybe that's because our performances have been just that.

My point re United We Stand, is that they have vehemently supported all United managers. As editor, Andy sets that direction.
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I think it's very evident you are triggered.

You took an observation that was midly critical in a sentence of general praise and got extremely upset about it, along with questioning if I personally bought a magazine he made his name from.

Just chill out, he's a gloomy guy, and that's my educated opinion having listened and read his work over the years. He wasn't always this gloomy, he's just gotten a bit moreso and he's also inconsistent in his treatment on patience for managers.

But he's human so hel not be perfect. You need to understand hes not god, and chill out of people make a passing observation on him.
 
It may be easier to change the manager before 11 players but we should become the first club to let the manager change all 11 once more if that’s what it takes. We’ve changed 5 managers and we know that doesn’t change anything here and no one is a lover of these players it seems…
 
VP89 said:
I think it's very evident you are triggered.

You took an observation that was midly critical in a sentence of general praise and got extremely upset about it, along with questioning if I personally bought a magazine he made his name from.

Just chill out, he's a gloomy guy, and that's my educated opinion having listened and read his work over the years. He wasn't always this gloomy, he's just gotten a bit moreso and he's also inconsistent in his treatment on patience for managers.

But he's human so hel not be perfect. You need to understand hes not god, and chill out of people make a passing observation on him.
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Stop being such a "Carl Anka". :lol:
 
I remember Scholes publicly saying that he heard from Lingard that the dressing room was a disaster, probably nothing has changed.
 
They definitely are, the tactics are just bad. "They're not trying" can't be used as an excuse this time.
 
As I've said in other threads, even if bad player attitudes are to blame, you ultimately need a strong manager with a massive personality to turn that around - ETH doesn't really strike me as that person. More of a coach than a Fergie-style manager who will run every aspect of the club and mould it in his own image.
 
On this morning’s pod, Mitten shared that he knew United did extra training for the City and Newcastle games to be up for the challenge…
 
groovyalbert said:
Onana
Casemiro
Martinez
Malacia
Hojlund
Amrabat
Reguilon
Evans
Antony
Mount

All ETH signings. How many are actually working?
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Evans, Reguilon, Amrabat loans or emergency signings. Wouldnt argue Evans or Reguilon are particularly bad though, and I dont think he would have wanted to play Evans as a first choice CB in the games he did.

Malacia was a squad player, effectively replacing Telles. Not bad, unless you want to blame him for injury. Licha + Eriksen not bad either.

I question if Casemiro was a Ten Hag push -is this what you are inferring?

Antony is terrible and Mount needs to start performing. I like the Onana signing.
 
groovyalbert said:
Onana
Casemiro
Martinez
Malacia
Hojlund
Amrabat
Reguilon
Evans
Antony
Mount

All ETH signings. How many are actually working?
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Only Casemiro payed off. He at least gave us one great season where he was our main player. And Eriksen is a good signing too. Others were/are a waste so far. Including fans favorite Lisandro who is more injured than fit.
 
Cheesy said:
As I've said in other threads, even if bad player attitudes are to blame, you ultimately need a strong manager with a massive personality to turn that around - ETH doesn't really strike me as that person. More of a coach than a Fergie-style manager who will run every aspect of the club and mould it in his own image.
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Isn't this a problem in itself, as sacking Ten Hag because of that means we have to replace him with a Fergie-style manager that's performed at a big club? That option just doesn't exist.
 
Lash said:
Isn't this a problem in itself, as sacking Ten Hag because of that means we have to replace him with a Fergie-style manager that's performed at a big club? That option just doesn't exist.
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Yeah, a top calibre coach is exactly what we need, rather than whatever fudge and failures in communication are stymieing ETH, but alongside vision and competency in coaching the technical side and tactical side, he needs to have both the conviction and authority to exclude players from the side or even 1st team see-up for not executing instructions and for attitude/misdemeanours generally. Sancho seems to be the only case where there were genuine consequences (Ronaldo was an attack on the club and ownership in public, so that's a different matter still).

I don't know if the persisting with Rashford is really from a full conviction that he will just play himself back into form or into another streak, or if there's pressure. This is still an opaque side of the interference that the non-football hierarchy potentially exert, from directors to the accounting side, hence a scaled-down version of the counter-productive, in footballing terms, dishing out of contract renewals that started under Woody. Not my field but I think this is partly connected to the financing and paper assets as well as partly down to our former CEO's zany ideas. Elsewhere there have been rumours that McT likewise is seen as a slightly special case, relative to his ability, because SAF 'rates' him,...hence the disproportionately high asking price when we came to sell (though that hasn't been 'proven') . Other players are kept around and forced to be kept on-side because of 'book value', it would seem.

That, alongside the miasma of cynicism and mediocrity that the Glazers bring with them and which obviously haunts the halls an which is clear in the lack of care in the stadium and facilities, probably has its own detrimental impact at a subconscious level on the players. Still, a proper coach would use this as a way of framing 'us' against the 'hierarchy' and try and get some energy out of it , so long as they weren't being actively interfered with.
 
I’ve seen a few points challenging people who said “these players” downed tools on Jose, Ole, and now Ten Hag - since it’s largely a different group.

A culture of failure is passed on from group to group, especially when the culture is so entrenched.

So in a sense I don’t agree with point about it not being the same players - different names perhaps, but the same lineage.

It can be rooted out and I believe Ten Hag recognised this, he just hasn’t been able to move players on quickly enough before the next batch of signings catch the virus, to use a Jose-ism.

It also doesn’t help that culture trickles down from the top and at the top of our club are greedy leeches. Every business I’ve ever worked in, the culture always reflects the leadership and United are no exception.
 
I was coming in here to say if Ten Hag needs to get the dressing room back onside and is getting desperate he should make them watch how his Ajax team dismantled Real Madrid in the Bernabeu 4-1 after steering them to their first CL knockout tie in 13 years...

Then when looking at the BBC match report I realised RM's starting line up that night had Varane, Casemiro and Reguilon in it - whoops :lol:
 
groovyalbert said:
Onana
Casemiro
Martinez
Malacia
Hojlund
Amrabat
Reguilon
Evans
Antony
Mount

All ETH signings. How many are actually working?
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He signs mid-players and it's because he's a mid-manager. When he signed Wegroast it said it all.
 
Think there is some confusion in this thread as to which actual players Ten Hag wanted to sign and which he was forced to take in based on the club's terrible structure and finances.

anyone that believes Ten Hag "wanted" Weghorst is crazy. same with Evans and Reguilon - all forced due to injuries

Casemiro and Licha were arguably our players of the season last season. too early to tell on Onana, but he was one of the top GKs in Europe last year.

Malacia is for depth. too early to tell on mount.

only one that has been bad is Antony
 
groovyalbert said:
Did he sign Weghorst, or was he the only free option?
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Why would Weghorst be the only free option? He wasn't even free, he was at a club. If we could prize a player from a club we could have gotten a player that could score at least 5 goals. Weghorst was chosen because ETH knows him and he likes how mediocre he is.
 
mintyred said:
Why would Weghorst be the only free option? He wasn't even free, he was at a club. If we could prize a player from a club we could have gotten a player that could score at least 5 goals. Weghorst was chosen because ETH knows him and he likes how mediocre he is.
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He was a loan because Ronaldo fecked the club over completely and tried to derail the season/force a move because he wasn't happy. Weghorst was probably the best option out there. ETH's eye for players is definitely worth scrutinizing but Weghorst was such a unique situation, he's not one of the sticks to beat the manager with.
 
Cheesy said:
As I've said in other threads, even if bad player attitudes are to blame, you ultimately need a strong manager with a massive personality to turn that around - ETH doesn't really strike me as that person. More of a coach than a Fergie-style manager who will run every aspect of the club and mould it in his own image.
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Whatever about “personality” I’m not sure what that even means in a manager but he certainly is a strong manager. We seen that when he got rid of Cristiano Ronaldo in the first few months he was here. Whether or not that was the correct decision is up for debate but it’s an absolute fact that it would take a strong manager to make such a call. He’s also shown De Gea the door and taken the captains armband away from Harry Maguire. Again, the correctness of these decisions can be debated, but what’s not up for debate is it would and did take a strong manager to make these calls.
 
sugar_kane said:
I’ve seen a few points challenging people who said “these players” downed tools on Jose, Ole, and now Ten Hag - since it’s largely a different group.

A culture of failure is passed on from group to group, especially when the culture is so entrenched.

So in a sense I don’t agree with point about it not being the same players - different names perhaps, but the same lineage.

It can be rooted out and I believe Ten Hag recognised this, he just hasn’t been able to move players on quickly enough before the next batch of signings catch the virus, to use a Jose-ism.

It also doesn’t help that culture trickles down from the top and at the top of our club are greedy leeches. Every business I’ve ever worked in, the culture always reflects the leadership and United are no exception.
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I think I counted 9 players that have been here for five years or more, that's a fair amount. Even players like Maguire, Bruno and AwB who are on their fifth season are now about to see a fourth different manager when the inevitable happens (and it will happen).

And yeah, i think the culture can be perpetuated by bringing in the wrong players or those in the youth ranks not having a good attitude. The club also had to get rid of the likes of Mctominay and Maguire in the summer. I'm sure I remember hearing that one of the key things EtH had to do was to root out the survivor culture at the club where players just keep hanging on despite not really doing an awful lot in their careers here.
 
For me, Ratcliffe and his chosen DOF need to take a ruthless, analytical approach: any players who were present during the undermining of Jose, Ole, and ETH? Gone (so this means Dalot, Shaw, Lindelof, McTominay, Rashford and Martial); players who were present under the undermining of Ole and ETH? Gone, unless having shown significant improvement under ETH (so this means Maguire, DVB and Sancho are out the door; AWB can stay.) Then, they need to look at the rest of the players, figure out who can be flogged to Saudi Arabia (ie. Casemiro, Varane, and hopefully Antony); who is not good enough/too old (Eriksen, Evans, Malacia, Pellistri, Amrabat, Reguilon); and who can be potential contributors to a new era (I'm thinking Lisandro, Onana, Hojlund, Mount, Mainoo, Bruno (although I'd have no problem with him in the Saudi category), Amad, Hannibal and the youth players.)

Obviously, it's a gargantuan task, but anything short of it will result in the same rinse/repeat cycle.
 
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jem said:
For me, Ratcliffe and his chosen DOF need to take a ruthless, analytical approach: any players who were present during the undermining of Jose, Ole, and ETH? Gone (so this means Dalot, Shaw, Lindelof, McTominay, Rashford and Martial); players who were present under the undermining of Ole and ETH? Gone, unless having shown significant improvement under ETH (so this means Maguire, DVB and Sancho are out the door; AWB can stay.) Then, they need to look at the rest of the players, figure out who can be flogged to Saudi Arabia (ie. Casemiro, Varane, and hopefully Antony); who is not good enough/too old (Eriksen, Evans, Malacia, Pellistri, Amrabat, Reguilon); and who can be potential contributors to a new era (I'm thinking Lisandro, Onana, Hojlund, Mount, Mainoo, Bruno (although I'd have no problem with him in the Saudi category), Amad, Hannibal and the youth players.)

Obviously, it's a gargantuan task, but anything short of it will result in the same rinse/repeat cycle.
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That’s an absolutely ridiculous way of doing things. Luke Shaw’s probably our only world class player (respective of his position), and our down turn has been whilst he’s been out injured, but we have to get rid because he’s been here a while? That’s not analytical it’s just very stupid.
 
mintyred said:
Why would Weghorst be the only free option? He wasn't even free, he was at a club. If we could prize a player from a club we could have gotten a player that could score at least 5 goals. Weghorst was chosen because ETH knows him and he likes how mediocre he is.
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he wanted Gakpo and Felix ffs
 
jem said:
For me, Ratcliffe and his chosen DOF need to take a ruthless, analytical approach: any players who were present during the undermining of Jose, Ole, and ETH? Gone (so this means Dalot, Shaw, Lindelof, McTominay, Rashford and Martial); players who were present under the undermining of Ole and ETH? Gone, unless having shown significant improvement under ETH (so this means Maguire, DVB and Sancho are out the door; AWB can stay.) Then, they need to look at the rest of the players, figure out who can be flogged to Saudi Arabia (ie. Casemiro, Varane, and hopefully Antony); who is not good enough/too old (Eriksen, Evans, Malacia, Pellistri, Amrabat, Reguilon); and who can be potential contributors to a new era (I'm thinking Lisandro, Onana, Hojlund, Mount, Mainoo, Bruno (although I'd have no problem with him in the Saudi category), Amad, Hannibal and the youth players.)

Obviously, it's a gargantuan task, but anything short of it will result in the same rinse/repeat cycle.
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Alright then.
 
jem said:
For me, Ratcliffe and his chosen DOF need to take a ruthless, analytical approach: any players who were present during the undermining of Jose, Ole, and ETH? Gone (so this means Dalot, Shaw, Lindelof, McTominay, Rashford and Martial); players who were present under the undermining of Ole and ETH? Gone, unless having shown significant improvement under ETH (so this means Maguire, DVB and Sancho are out the door; AWB can stay.) Then, they need to look at the rest of the players, figure out who can be flogged to Saudi Arabia (ie. Casemiro, Varane, and hopefully Antony); who is not good enough/too old (Eriksen, Evans, Malacia, Pellistri, Amrabat, Reguilon); and who can be potential contributors to a new era (I'm thinking Lisandro, Onana, Hojlund, Mount, Mainoo, Bruno (although I'd have no problem with him in the Saudi category), Amad, Hannibal and the youth players.)

Obviously, it's a gargantuan task, but anything short of it will result in the same rinse/repeat cycle.
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I'm no expert but I believe you have to field 11 players or they start with the whole forfeiting games craic.
 
jem said:
For me, Ratcliffe and his chosen DOF need to take a ruthless, analytical approach: any players who were present during the undermining of Jose, Ole, and ETH? Gone (so this means Dalot, Shaw, Lindelof, McTominay, Rashford and Martial); players who were present under the undermining of Ole and ETH? Gone, unless having shown significant improvement under ETH (so this means Maguire, DVB and Sancho are out the door; AWB can stay.) Then, they need to look at the rest of the players, figure out who can be flogged to Saudi Arabia (ie. Casemiro, Varane, and hopefully Antony); who is not good enough/too old (Eriksen, Evans, Malacia, Pellistri, Amrabat, Reguilon); and who can be potential contributors to a new era (I'm thinking Lisandro, Onana, Hojlund, Mount, Mainoo, Bruno (although I'd have no problem with him in the Saudi category), Amad, Hannibal and the youth players.)

Obviously, it's a gargantuan task, but anything short of it will result in the same rinse/repeat cycle.
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If he's taking an analytical approach, Rashford would definitely not be sold, also Bruno would definitely not be gone.
Nor would Shaw and possibly Maguire.

But that's purely on an 'analytical' approach
 
Dorris said:
That’s an absolutely ridiculous way of doing things. Luke Shaw’s probably our only world class player (respective of his position), and our down turn has been whilst he’s been out injured, but we have to get rid because he’s been here a while? That’s not analytical it’s just very stupid.
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His fluctuating form has been symptomatic of the problems that have ailed us for years.
 
Champ said:
If he's taking an analytical approach, Rashford would definitely not be sold, also Bruno would definitely not be gone.
Nor would Shaw and possibly Maguire.

But that's purely on an 'analytical' approach
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Right, because keeping a player who has scored 36 goals over 2.5 seasons (30 coming in one season) and paying him 350k/week makes all kinds of sense...
 
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