Andre Onana made another mistake. Ohnono.

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cpresc said:
So who in your opinion do we sign that is highly likely to perform better? And which positions do you consider lower priority than GK to sign right now?
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De Gea was behind the same defence last season and kept more clean sheets.
We failed to develop Henderson and lost him, the same will happen with Heaton, Bayinder will possibly want a move away in the summer due to lack of playing time.
As for replacing him, I don't think we can, teh days have gone when you can spend 43m on a player and ditch him a year later.
With a fully fit squad, I only see us needing a LB, DM and AM.
Erisckson is shot, so is Casemiro, AWB is a liability so has to go

If we have the money, I'd take a serious look at Oblek or even Maignan, but I suspect they would well beyond our wallet
 
Kostov said:
That bolded part right there speaks volumes about how ridiculous your line of argument is. No my friend, DDG did not make even close to as many mistakes as Onana has done constantly this season, and you struggle to understand that, trying to mask it off with stats. It's like you don't even watch the actual football just quote the numbers.
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There's a lack of self awareness here, claiming my line of argument is ridiculous when yours amounts to "I don't care about the stats, my eyes say Onana bad".
 
Zlatan 7 said:
No, I said you’ve got this stat. I didn’t say it was yours.
i havent hyperboled. I haven’t ranted.
I’d love to know what these 5.7 saves are that were expected goals because I’m sure they were not in that video of his best saves apart from the penalty save and probably the Brighton save, and that’s still ignoring all the saves he should have made.

Some fans are Stat mad these days and may aswell watch football from ceefax or a spreadsheet. I get it, you like to watch football through stats, Inlike to watch the actual game and what I see from Onana doesn’t impress me at all. Opinions.
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I think you're on flimsy ground disparaging fans who take an interest in stats, just because some of us use objective measures to help form and guide opinions, rather than relying on a very subjective eye test that's easily tainted by bias (a dislike of the player, liking the player that was replaced, etc).

The game is modernising, some of want to do so along with it! :)
 
Sky1981 said:
Yes, he's so bad and shaky every teams are peppering him with pot shots

But hey, "second best goalkeeper"
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That's not what those stats mean at all, he's being peppered with shots and still preventing more goals than DDG last season, who faced a lot fewer shots. Up until 10th April, no doubt his numbers will take a hit after his howler against Palace.
 
Onana is an average keeper, and he rarely makes saves, you do not expect a keeper to make. Our worst keeper since Roy Caroll.
 
He hasn't got fast reflexes, he doesn't have any tactical sense, he doesn't command the back line well, and he is easily panicked when put under pressure. I don't know one thing he is good at. Was supposed to be his ball distribution, but even that is very average.
 
I said it last year and I'll say it again. We should've bought Diogo Costa from Porto. 24 years old and I'm certain he will be one of the best keeper in the world within 2-3 years. Great passer and a great shot stopper. I started watching him last season when my co-workers told me about him (I work with a lot of portuguese guys), what a feckin talent!! He still has some mistakes in him, but overall he's a fecking great GK.
 
The Hilton said:
I think you're on flimsy ground disparaging fans who take an interest in stats, just because some of us use objective measures to help form and guide opinions, rather than relying on a very subjective eye test that's easily tainted by bias (a dislike of the player, liking the player that was replaced, etc).

The game is modernising, some of want to do so along with it! :)
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Statistics have to have a benchmark to have any credence, where is the becnhmark for all the football stats.
Where is the benchmark for Onana playing for United ?
There isn't one, this is his first season at the club, so there is nothing to compare this season with, the only comparison possible as a bench mark is his time at Inter where he only played 24 games, the data is flawed and curved in his favour because of the low sample.
The same is true of Hoijland, his first season in the EPL, so there is no data available to say what hi xG is.
The data on a lot of United players is flawed.
That is why people like me don't trust statistics.
No true sample and insufficient data gives twisted results.
 
The Hilton said:
That's not what those stats mean at all, he's being peppered with shots and still preventing more goals than DDG last season, who faced a lot fewer shots. Up until 10th April, no doubt his numbers will take a hit after his howler against Palace.
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You've just contradicted yourself, the more data that is gathered, the worse he gets, which proves what the rest of us are saying, you cannot trust the stats after less than a season.
De Gea kept 17 clean sheets in his final season, Onana has eight.
 
Matt Varnish said:
De Gea was behind the same defence last season and kept more clean sheets.
We failed to develop Henderson and lost him, the same will happen with Heaton, Bayinder will possibly want a move away in the summer due to lack of playing time.
As for replacing him, I don't think we can, teh days have gone when you can spend 43m on a player and ditch him a year later.
With a fully fit squad, I only see us needing a LB, DM and AM.
Erisckson is shot, so is Casemiro, AWB is a liability so has to go

If we have the money, I'd take a serious look at Oblek or even Maignan, but I suspect they would well beyond our wallet
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This is a point that Dave haters conveniently overlook. In his decade of service to United, Dave never had a settled back line. It was almost always stitched together with squad players here and underperformers there. Shaw was a bright spot, but Shaw was never a top defender as a left back. Martinez was a bright spot throughout his one season with us before he was felled to the physioroom, where he resides to this day a year later. The names of underperforming defenders starting with Maguire is not short.

But it will only take 2-3 seasons for Dave to be completely forgotten, but his performances for a decade for United were nothing short of astonishing, for several seasons arguably the top keeper on the planet.
 
cpresc said:
I think he has courage, will stand up and be counted instead of shy away - this is a must have trait for a Utd player

He's a good shot stopper with fast reactions. Athletic and good on the ball.

He flaps a bit, granted and makes silly mistakes. Both I hope can be solved with great coaching and sports psychology.

Similar to Ten Hag, I want to see how he performs with a good structure around him, a consistent, high-performing defence.
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He doesn't look very athletic with any shots down around his feet.
 
lex talionis said:
This is a point that Dave haters conveniently overlook. In his decade of service to United, Dave never had a settled back line. It was almost always stitched together with squad players here and underperformers there. Shaw was a bright spot, but Shaw was never a top defender as a left back. Martinez was a bright spot throughout his one season with us before he was felled to the physioroom, where he resides to this day a year later. The names of underperforming defenders starting with Maguire is not short.

But it will only take 2-3 seasons for Dave to be completely forgotten, but his performances for a decade for United were nothing short of astonishing, for several seasons arguably the top keeper on the planet.
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It's not been overlooked, it's just not true.

It also is very obvious to anyone who has watched us this season that we are so far off where we were defensively for much of last season.
 
lex talionis said:
Onana somehow brings out extreme claims in many of us. Last June as it became clear that we were going to shitcan Dave to the sewer the euphoria over Onana was absurd. Talk of a "modern keeper" who would "transform" our play and have us in top four with his incredible footwork to build our attacks from the back was cringey reading. But now that he's been found out as anything but a transformational footballer we've gone to the other extreme with claims that he's shite.

If a time machine existed I doubt many of us would urge ETH to spend 47m on Onana. But here we are now and Onana, despite his obvious flaws as a keeper as a shot-stopper, isn't bad enough to consider selling him for 5m or 10m just to get rid of him.
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I remember being told we would have 10% more possesion on average with a modern keeper, who was also supposed to help us score more goals. People were literally saying a ball playing keeper was higher priority than a striker.
 
The Hilton said:
There's a lack of self awareness here, claiming my line of argument is ridiculous when yours amounts to "I don't care about the stats, my eyes say Onana bad".
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Most healthy eyes that have watched United this season will tell you how disastrous Onana has been. And it’s not even scandalous just borderline laughable to argue otherwise. Stats are not the entire picture. It’s 2024 and every serious football club still relies on football scouts, who guess what, still go and watch some actual football being played. If it was the other way around data scientists would be running football clubs and not actual footballing men.
 
Kostov said:
Most healthy eyes that have watched United this season will tell you how disastrous Onana has been. And it’s not even scandalous just borderline laughable to argue otherwise. Stats are not the entire picture. It’s 2024 and every serious football club still relies on football scouts, who guess what, still go and watch some actual football being played. If it was the other way around data scientists would be running football clubs and not actual footballing men.
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I wouldn't call your eyes "healthy", given that they see Onana as disastrous but DDG last season as quite good given he was, both to the eye and according to statistics, even worse. This is the problem with relying on the eye test - you're clearly looking through a biased lens that will lead you to overrate the player you like, and underrate the player you don't. Stats help the more rational among us temper that bias with objectivity.

It's widely reported how almost all of the big clubs have embraced data to make decisions, and how the role of scouts is changing. Even we made a big push towards being more data-driven when Murtough took over the footballing department. You may want to remain in the dark ages, and that's fine, but football is leaving you behind.
 
Matt Varnish said:
You've just contradicted yourself, the more data that is gathered, the worse he gets, which proves what the rest of us are saying, you cannot trust the stats after less than a season.
De Gea kept 17 clean sheets in his final season, Onana has eight.
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I don't think contradiction means what you think it means. I did no such thing. And absolutely nobody I've disagreed with has said that you can't trust stats after less than a season, only that eyes = good and stats = bad. If by the end of the season Onana has prevented more goals than DDG will you accept him as having performed better this season? I highly doubt it.

Clean sheets are a much less useful statistic, as they that related to the entire team, and the ludicrous difference in the number of shots we've allowed makes them a lot less likely this season. But it's ironic you use a statistic, even if it's not a very good one, immediately after saying "you cannot trust the stats after less than a season". Not very consistent.
 
Matt Varnish said:
Statistics have to have a benchmark to have any credence, where is the becnhmark for all the football stats.
Where is the benchmark for Onana playing for United ?
There isn't one, this is his first season at the club, so there is nothing to compare this season with, the only comparison possible as a bench mark is his time at Inter where he only played 24 games, the data is flawed and curved in his favour because of the low sample.
The same is true of Hoijland, his first season in the EPL, so there is no data available to say what hi xG is.
The data on a lot of United players is flawed.
That is why people like me don't trust statistics.
No true sample and insufficient data gives twisted results.
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The benchmark for the goalkeeper this season is the goalkeeper last season, that's the direct comparison people are making. There are posters claiming that DDG didn't need changing and that we should have signed him to another lucrative contract as the best paid keeper in the country, and that in comparison Onana has been awful. The former is a terrible suggestion that would be throwing money away, and the latter is objectively false.
 
The Hilton said:
The benchmark for the goalkeeper this season is the goalkeeper last season, that's the direct comparison people are making. There are posters claiming that DDG didn't need changing and that we should have signed him to another lucrative contract as the best paid keeper in the country, and that in comparison Onana has been awful. The former is a terrible suggestion that would be throwing money away, and the latter is objectively false.
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Nah, Onana has been awful though. Seriously.
 
JPRouve said:
I agree with you on the eye test but the paradox is that he also makes saves that he shouldn't be able to. At this minute he isn't reliable because you can't predict what he is able or unable to save or the areas where he will dominate but with better coaching I can see him improve drastically and be a genuine asset.
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He could do with a gk coach like Frans Hoek, who seemed to improve De Gea a lot in 2014/15.
 
Agila Dathi said:
I said it last year and I'll say it again. We should've bought Diogo Costa from Porto. 24 years old and I'm certain he will be one of the best keeper in the world within 2-3 years. Great passer and a great shot stopper. I started watching him last season when my co-workers told me about him (I work with a lot of portuguese guys), what a feckin talent!! He still has some mistakes in him, but overall he's a fecking great GK.
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He was looked a, but Porto wanted mega bucks last summer, ranging from £70 mill-£90mill, depending which media you read. Thre are reports that Ineos are now scouting him again.
 
Rista said:
I remember being told we would have 10% more possesion on average with a modern keeper, who was also supposed to help us score more goals. People were literally saying a ball playing keeper was higher priority than a striker.
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I don't remember a quoted percentage of increased possession, but I do remember the hype especially from Beth and Statman Dave.

It's easy enough to punch down on Onana now, but to be fair he was never sold to us as a brilliant shot-stopper. I would say he's a midtable PL keeper in terms of shot-stopping and above average with his footwork. But where the hype was out of control was the idea that his footwork would increase our possession and the quality of our shots on goal. I'm sorry, but you could put the lovechild of prime Allison and prime Ederson in goal for this United side and we'd still be overrun in midfield and shit our pants in the final third.
 
The Hilton said:
I think it's more that he's made multiple high profile awful errors, while being generally decent if unspectacular, personally. But let's agree to disagree.
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Fair enough, it's all opinions. For my part, I honestly can't see how anyone that's watched him consistently can claim he's been decent this season. His technique is horrendous (imo) and he always looks like he has at least one significant error in him a game.
 
Pickle85 said:
Fair enough, it's all opinions. For my part, I honestly can't see how anyone that's watched him consistently can claim he's been decent this season. His technique is horrendous (imo) and he always looks like he has at least one significant error in him a game.
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I agree his technique needs some work, and in fairness I think his saves aren't as secure as they could be (he doesn't direct the ball out of trouble all that well), but he did have a run of good form, particularly in the league, which is too easily forgotten I think.
 
Given how bad almost everyone has been and how exposed we leave him with our crazy set up, I wouldn't be inclined to single him out as a problem. He does 3x the work of most keepers at comparable teams, which means 3x the pressure and 3x the opportunities to feck it up.

So he's still in the no idea if good enough camp for me.
 
Matt Varnish said:
De Gea was behind the same defence last season and kept more clean sheets.
We failed to develop Henderson and lost him, the same will happen with Heaton, Bayinder will possibly want a move away in the summer due to lack of playing time.
As for replacing him, I don't think we can, teh days have gone when you can spend 43m on a player and ditch him a year later.
With a fully fit squad, I only see us needing a LB, DM and AM.
Erisckson is shot, so is Casemiro, AWB is a liability so has to go

If we have the money, I'd take a serious look at Oblek or even Maignan, but I suspect they would well beyond our wallet
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Agree with you on low priority for a new keeper, so many changes required, re-exam this slot may be 2 or 3 years later.

However, completely disagree with you on needing a LB, DM and AM.

We have far too many AM, who have either no game time, or failure to fit in. In fact, we just acquired someone from Chelsea and I am still confuse on where to fit him in. We need to get rid of 2, may be 3x AM, not to buy new.

Our Top priority, should be fixing CB. We have 2x 30+ CB, earning 200-300K/w, fighting for the same position. One can play 15 games a season, another cannot turn.

I would probably fix our RB instead of LB, but this is minor conception problem.

With so many changes required, I would rather keep Casemiro for another season for Mainoo to understudy. Just my opinion of course. He is awfully expensive and unpredictable in terms of availability.
 
wolvored said:
He was looked a, but Porto wanted mega bucks last summer, ranging from £70 mill-£90mill, depending which media you read. Thre are reports that Ineos are now scouting him again.
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He signed a new contract in february IIRC so he has a £60m release clause. Better option than Stevie Wonder we have now.
 
He's a weird one, has pulled off some insane saves but also messes up really easy traditional saves. His positioning also seems so off at times, he also doesn't look as big as normal keepers so there's that. The way we're set up also fails to use his ball playing ability, was brilliant for Inter in that aspect. He's definitely an improvement on DDG from last year for sure.
Obviously can't get rid cuz there's no way we can re-coup what we paid for him.

With our other two GK's leaving, I'd get Kovar back if we have a buy back, get another experienced player as 3rd GK backup (English Homegrown) and promote a youth GK (Vitek) to train with the squad.
 
The Hilton said:
I agree his technique needs some work, and in fairness I think his saves aren't as secure as they could be (he doesn't direct the ball out of trouble all that well), but he did have a run of good form, particularly in the league, which is too easily forgotten I think.
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Agreed, he did have a good run. Was hoping it'd continue but he's consistently inconsistent.
 
mu4c_20le said:
To be fair I was strictly talking about this season. I don't think it was an outlandish statement to say that he isn't the only modern keeper in the PL capable of launching an accurate long ball? You could say that injuries and a poor team played a part, but his numbers have been average.
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Sure, but the eye test says he's clearly got good long passes and should have a number of assists this season already, which is impressive and something we didn't have once with De Gea in a decade of service. That's also only one part of the game, and aside from a few mistakes, his calmness in possession is impressive and would certainly stand out in a top team, just as it did in the Champions League final for Inter.
 
RedRocket9908 said:
He really isnt, the fact he has more clean sheets than Allisson despite having no defence or midfield in front off him proves that as do some of his other stats.
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Ignoring the fact he has played 9 more games than Allison I see?

Onana is 6th in clean sheets, having played every game, and 15th in percentage of clean sheets, how good is that?
 
The Hilton said:
I wouldn't call your eyes "healthy", given that they see Onana as disastrous but DDG last season as quite good given he was, both to the eye and according to statistics, even worse. This is the problem with relying on the eye test - you're clearly looking through a biased lens that will lead you to overrate the player you like, and underrate the player you don't. Stats help the more rational among us temper that bias with objectivity.

It's widely reported how almost all of the big clubs have embraced data to make decisions, and how the role of scouts is changing. Even we made a big push towards being more data-driven when Murtough took over the footballing department. You may want to remain in the dark ages, and that's fine, but football is leaving you behind.
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Well you have watched Onana single handedly throw us out of the CL group stages and somehow still think DDG was as bad last season. My eyes are fine, I think yours are okey too, just your biased opinion and obviously not accepting the reality of how bad Onana actually has been for the club. All you can hang on is, stats stats stats, like a blind man to a walking stick.

And yeah Murtough's data driven approach has brought wonders to our recruitment department doesn't it? And yeah data is used and will always be used, but even in the scouts ever evolving nature and roles, they still hold the final say and obviously having the good ones makes the difference to being a top club and a club run by amateurs like Manchester United has been in the last years. Even ETH seems absolutely deluded and using "we only have 4 defeats this calendar year" "or the data is this or that" when we absolutely look as one of the worst coached sides in the league. Wake up and smell the shit, Onana has been absolutely woeful and probably the worst GK we have had since Roy Carroll.
 
The Hilton said:
I wouldn't call your eyes "healthy", given that they see Onana as disastrous but DDG last season as quite good given he was, both to the eye and according to statistics, even worse. This is the problem with relying on the eye test - you're clearly looking through a biased lens that will lead you to overrate the player you like, and underrate the player you don't. Stats help the more rational among us temper that bias with objectivity.

It's widely reported how almost all of the big clubs have embraced data to make decisions, and how the role of scouts is changing. Even we made a big push towards being more data-driven when Murtough took over the footballing department. You may want to remain in the dark ages, and that's fine, but football is leaving you behind.
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So, basically what you are saying is that we are all blind, our eyes lie and Onana is really good.
How is what we actually see a biased lens.
I get the impression that you don't know how data and stats work, where is the benchmark for his performance this season, you cannot base it on last season, because he wasn't in the Prem, so the data is flawed.
You cannot base it on his data at Inter, because it is incomplete, only 24 games played last season.

I would agree with you if;
He wasn't making the same cockups he was at inter
He wasn't making the same cockups he was at Ajax
He wasn't making the same cockups he was at International level

He has the same defence in front of him that De Gea had last season, and he's only got 8 clean sheets against De Gea's 17
Or perhaps you've forgotten we tried to sell off Maguire because he was so bad last season, Varanne spent a lot of time injured, Martinez was out for periods, why do you think we signed Evans in the summer?
 
We don't have the luxury of going for a new keeper. We aren't going to make 20 new signings in the summer and we don't even have the funds to fix all our most desperate positions. We need a rb, 2 cbs, lb, 2 dms and a striker far more urgently.

I said the same last season, despite everyone else screaming to get rid of De Gea and replace him.
 
He's in a similar position to De Gea before David started making consistent errors where there are more pressing needs to the team with a constrained budget.

I prefer shot stoppers as a main attribute with a goalkeeper and the ability to play out from the back as a secondary component.
 
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