André Onana | signed for United | On a flight to NYC

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Zed is not dead said:
Haha apologies mate, didn’t mean to come across as disrespectful, it’s just that I’ve read so many posts blaming the club for everything and it’s opposite…

I also fully agree with you and L1nk. I might even add that in addition to United being more reported on than other clubs, we also have our own United-centric bias because we tend follow very closely any United news.
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It’s all good mate. I should’ve specified those thoughts in my original post and made it clearer.
 
Imaging all the paperwork and other formal and legal stuff that must be included when buying an asset worth north of £50 million. Just printing all that paperwork must take a day or two...

Also, all the ink, where to buy it? All the browsing on Pricerunner..it's the Glazers, so it must be cheap and on credit...
 
Teja said:
I think my bigger concern given the profile of the club is that the errors get magnified and the things he did right (like subtly improving the build up play) will be ignored. This place is going to be calling for his head the moment he attempts a dribble, gives the ball away and concedes a goal. Ignoring the 1000 other times this exact action resulted in a counter attack / ball progressing up the field.
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You're absolutely correct imo, and that is what will happen. There's a number of posters on here who I feel are waiting for Onana to slip up, so they can feel better about their favourite De Gea being shown the door.

But I think it's important to focus on the potential evolution of our play style, which has failed us in a era where more and more clubs started to hire managers who initiated attacks from the back and defended from the front by pressing aggressively. And the truth is that De Gea has never been good enough to ever be a plus point for a coach who adheres to the positional play principles where the aim is to exert zonal and positional control in all phases of play.

So De Gea at any point in his career wasn't good enough to play for such a coach, whether that be ten Hag, Luis Enrique or Guardiola in the present day or Rinus Michels or Cruyff in the 70s, 80s & 90s. Because those managers/coaches expect/expected their GK to provide the +1 in possession on top of saving shots/preventing shots.

So the United fans who saw the GK as someone who just saves shots, will have a problem with a GK who will look to be more proactive and more involved in the build up phase where evading the press isn't only the job of the outfield players but also the job of the GK who will be expected to provide the numerical superiority against those teams who are adept at pressing high as a team.
 
Adnan said:
You're absolutely correct imo, and that is what will happen. There's a number of posters on here who I feel are waiting for Onana to slip up, so they can feel better about their favourite De Gea being shown the door.

But I think it's important to focus on the potential evolution of our play style, which has failed us in a era where more and more clubs started to hire managers who initiated attacks from the back and defended from the front by pressing aggressively. And the truth is that De Gea has never been good enough to ever be a plus point for a coach who adheres to the positional play principles where the aim is to exert zonal and positional control in all phases of play.

So De Gea at any point in his career wasn't good enough to play for such a coach, whether that be ten Hag, Luis Enrique or Guardiola in the present day or Rinus Michels or Cruyff in the 70s, 80s & 90s. Because those managers/coaches expect/expected their GK to provide the +1 in possession on top of saving shots/preventing shots.

So the United fans who saw the GK as someone who just saves shots, will have a problem with a GK who will look to be more proactive and more involved in the build up phase where evading the press isn't only the job of the outfield players but also the job of the GK who will be expected to provide the numerical superiority against those teams who are adept at pressing high as a team.
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I agree with all of this apart from you alluding to coaches from the 70s and 80s. I'm not sure how old you are but if you were watching the game back then you would be aware that NO teams played out from the back. There wasn't even a back pass rule. All keepers used to hoof it and the pitches weren't sufficient for passing out from the back.

Although the likes of pep and ten hag may use similar principles to likes of Michels or Cruyff, the game is very different now than it was then. Saying that de gea couldn't play for them due to his inability to play out seems ridiculous to me. If you were to say he couldn't hack the physicality of that era then I'd agree with you but I feel you're making stuff up here to back your point.
 
Yes of course there are complications that need to get sorted out, but WTF does it always take us so long -- except when it came to Ronaldo and Casemiro -- for us get these deals done?
 
Nogho said:
Imaging all the paperwork and other formal and legal stuff that must be included when buying an asset worth north of £50 million. Just printing all that paperwork must take a day or two...

Also, all the ink, where to buy it? All the browsing on Pricerunner..it's the Glazers, so it must be cheap and on credit...
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Also fax machines are notoriously unreliable
 
Borussia Teeth said:
I agree with all of this apart from you alluding to coaches from the 70s and 80s. I'm not sure how old you are but if you were watching the game back then you would be aware that NO teams played out from the back. There wasn't even a back pass rule. All keepers used to hoof it and the pitches weren't sufficient for passing out from the back.

Although the likes of pep and ten hag may use similar principles to likes of Michels or Cruyff, the game is very different now than it was then. Saying that de gea couldn't play for them due to his inability to play out seems ridiculous to me. If you were to say he couldn't hack the physicality of that era then I'd agree with you but I feel you're making stuff up here to back your point.
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Teams did play out from the back. Not sure where you got that from. Most keepers did kick from their hands a lot but many teams passed out from the back.

Keepers used to roll the ball out to the full backs, it got passed around a bit, sometimes it ended up back at the keeper and he’d pick it up. Sometimes he’d launch it upfield from his hands but often he’d pretend to do that but, instead, roll it out to the full back and they’d try again.

You may be thinking of the period after the pass back rule came in. When keepers weren’t allowed to pick it up, it was a deterrent to playing out from the back until teams learned how to play under the new rules.
 
Borussia Teeth said:
I agree with all of this apart from you alluding to coaches from the 70s and 80s. I'm not sure how old you are but if you were watching the game back then you would be aware that NO teams played out from the back. There wasn't even a back pass rule. All keepers used to hoof it and the pitches weren't sufficient for passing out from the back.

Although the likes of pep and ten hag may use similar principles to likes of Michels or Cruyff, the game is very different now than it was then. Saying that de gea couldn't play for them due to his inability to play out seems ridiculous to me. If you were to say he couldn't hack the physicality of that era then I'd agree with you but I feel you're making stuff up here to back your point.
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I'm talking about Rinus Michels in particular and I'll include Cruyff in that as well.

I'm not old enough to have watched Michels' teams live when he was a head coach. But I've watched a lot of the games that he managed as a coach in full at a later date. And also I have listened to what he said about the type of football he wanted to play and what he expected from his team as a collective. And De Gea absolutely doesn't fit into that.

The Dutch press labelled Michels as someone who implemented total football but Michels in his own words went on record and said his football is best described as 'pressing football'. And what he meant by pressing football, was that all 11 of his players were coached to be proactive with and without the ball. So with the ball the aim was to play vertically within the positional play principles and without the ball the aim was to defend proactively in a higher defensive line. So the keeper was a very important part of the pressing football Michels spoke about, where the keeper's role in possession was to act as the 11th outfield player and turn sweeper keeper out of possession.

And below is a extract from a piece about Michels and how he dropped the David de Gea of that era for a GK who hadn't played for the national team for 12 years. And the reason he dropped the GK was due to him being a traditional stay on the line GK. Michels was way ahead of his time.


"Both were pillars of founding Total football; the Dutch born philosophy that captured imaginations at the 1974 World Cup. the principle was one of forward led pressing in a chaotic swarming manner, but also possession based attack. Players would no longer be tactically restricted by their positions. They were all expected to contribute to the attacking phase."

"This began with the goalkeeper. Without ever having a renowned world class goalkeeper, in 1974 coach Michels had a choice of players for the role. There was Jan van Beveren of PSV and Piet Schrijvers of FC Twente. Michels chose neither, and instead selected Jans Jongbloed of FC Amsterdam, twelve years after his first cap."

"There were multiple factors at play. van Beveren had been injured for all but four of the qualifiers, declaring himself fit for the tournament. He would also fall out with captain Cruyff over pay disputes and the latter’s attitude and star status."

"Ultimately Michels would not only drop van Beveren, but would select Jongbloed as his replacement. Where van Beveren was a traditional, stay on the goal line type of ‘keeper, Jongbloed would sweep and leave his area to allow his defenders to hold a higher line. In selecting a goalkeeper who had not played for twelve years, indicated Michels’ intentions to choose a stylised goalkeeper. One that would not only keep goals out, but benefit the offensive side to play too."

"Jongbloed would also be selected for the next World Cup in Argentina, where they would again finish runners-up. The dye had been cast."

"This was a huge development, and would be repeated multiple times over the following decades. To choose the reliable shot stopper? Or the quicker, proactive sweeper-keeper? Michels and Cruyff, as is to be expected, played a major role in this cultural shift."

https://firsttimefinish.co.uk/2020/11/05/the-modern-sweeper-keeper/
 
I get so giddy when I see multiple tweets only to find out it’s just one tweet posted multiple times.:D
 
While I'm glad De Gea is gone and am excited to finally have a new GK I can't really be happy with the summer until we sort out our striker issues.

Well that and the ownership of course
 
lex talionis said:
Yes of course there are complications that need to get sorted out, but WTF does it always take us so long -- except when it came to Ronaldo and Casemiro -- for us get these deals done?
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to be fair, it's taken a similar length of time for Arsenal to sign Rice
 
He had his last dinner in Milan last night, the guy must be starving.
 
Hearing Murtough and Inter have set up a WhatsApp chat to make the negotiations happen faster but they can only communicate via memes and a game of wheel of fortune to guess what the other has said
 
simonhch said:
A huge wrinkle in our plans except for one small point, he’s retired From international football
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rumours he may well return though, they had a fallout which will likely eventually be resolved
 
Adnan said:
I'm talking about Rinus Michels in particular and I'll include Cruyff in that as well.

I'm not old enough to have watched Michels' teams live when he was a head coach. But I've watched a lot of the games that he managed as a coach in full at a later date. And also I have listened to what he said about the type of football he wanted to play and what he expected from his team as a collective. And De Gea absolutely doesn't fit into that.

The Dutch press labelled Michels as someone who implemented total football but Michels in his own words went on record and said his football is best described as 'pressing football'. And what he meant by pressing football, was that all 11 of his players were coached to be proactive with and without the ball. So with the ball the aim was to play vertically within the positional play principles and without the ball the aim was to defend proactively in a higher defensive line. So the keeper was a very important part of the pressing football Michels spoke about, where the keeper's role in possession was to act as the 11th outfield player and turn sweeper keeper out of possession.

And below is a extract from a piece about Michels and how he dropped the David de Gea of that era for a GK who hadn't played for the national team for 12 years. And the reason he dropped the GK was due to him being a traditional stay on the line GK. Michels was way ahead of his time.


"Both were pillars of founding Total football; the Dutch born philosophy that captured imaginations at the 1974 World Cup. the principle was one of forward led pressing in a chaotic swarming manner, but also possession based attack. Players would no longer be tactically restricted by their positions. They were all expected to contribute to the attacking phase."

"This began with the goalkeeper. Without ever having a renowned world class goalkeeper, in 1974 coach Michels had a choice of players for the role. There was Jan van Beveren of PSV and Piet Schrijvers of FC Twente. Michels chose neither, and instead selected Jans Jongbloed of FC Amsterdam, twelve years after his first cap."

"There were multiple factors at play. van Beveren had been injured for all but four of the qualifiers, declaring himself fit for the tournament. He would also fall out with captain Cruyff over pay disputes and the latter’s attitude and star status."

"Ultimately Michels would not only drop van Beveren, but would select Jongbloed as his replacement. Where van Beveren was a traditional, stay on the goal line type of ‘keeper, Jongbloed would sweep and leave his area to allow his defenders to hold a higher line. In selecting a goalkeeper who had not played for twelve years, indicated Michels’ intentions to choose a stylised goalkeeper. One that would not only keep goals out, but benefit the offensive side to play too."

"Jongbloed would also be selected for the next World Cup in Argentina, where they would again finish runners-up. The dye had been cast."

"This was a huge development, and would be repeated multiple times over the following decades. To choose the reliable shot stopper? Or the quicker, proactive sweeper-keeper? Michels and Cruyff, as is to be expected, played a major role in this cultural shift."

https://firsttimefinish.co.uk/2020/11/05/the-modern-sweeper-keeper/
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Fair enough. Maybe my memory is failing me or probably more likely that these tactics weren't really used by British teams.
 
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