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Raoul, you scare me with your insights on American politics. That is to say, your insights are spot on.

If the Dems can't have Cruz or Paul (or some other wingnut stooge) are the Rep nominee, they'll take Bush over Rubio. Bush could still beat her, but he'll have to deal with the headwinds of his last name and latent tea party disaffection. Rubio, on the other hand, can energize voters across the conservative to centrist segment of the ideological spectrum while picking up a piece of the Latino vote in states like North Carolina, New Mexico and even Virginia.

But can Rubio navigate the Rep primaries?

It will depend how he markets himself to the Republican base. If he reconnects with the Tea Party wing whilst keeping one foot with the moderate wing, he will definitely give Jeb Bush a hell of a fight. Jeb is older and has been out of politics for a long time, and is a bit like Hillary in that he looks like he's almost too tired to bother running. These types of candidates are excellent red meat for younger upstarts like Rubio and Cruz to chip away at.

I'd break the fields into three different columns :

Right Wing/Tea Party
Cruz
Santorum
Carson
Jindal
etc

GOP Centrist
Rubio
Paul
Walker
Fiorina
Perry

Establishment
Bush
Christie


That's just counting the ones considering runs so far. Rubio's challenge will be to get support from each of the three sides. However, if Bush gets all the momentum early, he will probably quickly drown out the rest of the pack and leave Rubio behind.
 
Totally disagree with Marco Rubio. He will go nowhere, imo. He has some big lies to explain about his family´s past and his whole Cuban appeal has been blown away with normalised relations with Cuba. Also, his climate denial will not look good in Southern Florida. Under proper scrutiny a lot of his past dealings will smell like scheisser. I won´t even mention his mushiness on immigration. He seems so hollow and superficial to me. A joke of a candidate.

And if he did miraculously win the nominee, would´t Clinton choosing Julian Castro as VP, be a pretty good choice. Neither Barack Obama nor W. Bush had much more experience than Castro. Plus he would be running with a massively experienced Hillary Clinton.


10 Things You Need to Know About Marco Rubio

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/04/ten-things-you-need-know-about-marco-rubio
 
Rubio has a lot of good things going for him. He is one of the very few candidates who could united the GOP and he also ticks all technical requirements of a good POTUS candidate (good looking, eloquent, personal charisma, no scandals, family, religious etc.pp).

Still the dems will find it easy to attack him from various angles. They´ll be able to run a fairly dirty campaign against him and he´ll be constantly on the defensive end. They wont be able to do the same with Bush.

If he is smart he´ll wait another 4 years until he runs for office.
 
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One of the reasons i think Rubio would do well is this. No other candidate will be able to counter narratives across linguistic lines, which will help him loosen up negative sentiment on immigration.

 
To me, he comes off horribly in that video. His hypocrisy shines through on immigration. He wants both sides of the immigration issue in Arizona, and gets exposed embarrassingly on his own father´s years long illegal immigration in the US. And when called on it comes off like an angry, petulant hijo de papi. Not sure how good your Spanish is, but he does not come off as charming or charismatic.
 
To me, he comes off horribly in that video. His hypocrisy shines through on immigration. He wants both sides of the immigration issue in Arizona, and gets exposed embarrassingly on his own father´s years long illegal immigration in the US. And when called on it comes off like an angry, petulant hijo de papi. Not sure how good your Spanish is, but he does not come off as charming or charismatic.

That's because you're taking a political position on what he's saying rather than being apolitical and analyzing his ability to cut through language barriers to communicate his position, which none of the other candidates have the luxury of.
 
How well do you understand Spanish?

I'm not a Spanish speaker, with the exception of a few terms here or there.

My point here is even if Rubio isn't a great Spanish speaking orator, as a Presidential candidate, his own Spanish ads are going to be bombarded into latino communities across the country. In effect, he is the only candidate who will be able to frame his own narrative within the millions of hispanic households on his own terms, and will therefore be able to undermine the very points that may concern hispanic voters, especially immigration. That's of course assuming he softens his own position on immigration.
 
And when the time comes, anti Rubio ads in Spanish will be splashed all over areas of latin influence. And they will use video just like the one you just showed where he comes off as trying to straddle both sides of the issue (when they all know he is a right wing republican who must ass lick the right wing), and in turn comes off as a total hypocrite. Watch that video again as he gets all angry and petulant when the univision journo nails him on his own father´s illegal immigration. No answer, just petulance and anger. And as you said, he is not a good spanish orator.

My point is, that was a very poor video to highlight Rubio´s crossing narrative along linguistic lines, unless of course you want to show he speaks Spanish well.
 
And when the time comes, anti Rubio ads in Spanish will be splashed all over areas of latin influence. And they will use video just like the one you just showed where he comes off as trying to straddle both sides of the issue (when they all know he is a right wing republican who must ass lick the right wing), and in turn comes off as a total hypocrite. Watch that video again as he gets all angry and petulant when the univision journo nails him on his own father´s illegal immigration. No answer, just petulance and anger. And as you said, he is not a good spanish orator.

My point is, that was a very poor video to highlight Rubio´s crossing narrative along linguistic lines, unless of course you want to show he speaks Spanish well.

Its not the same thing as being able to speak the language and defend yourself compared to anti-Rubio ads done by ad agencies. Rubio will be capable of doing the same to his opponent and they in turn will not be able to respond as he can.

I don't think he's being angry and petulant, its just the style that particular journo is known to have as well as Rubio's style of jabbing back.
 
It will depend how he markets himself to the Republican base. If he reconnects with the Tea Party wing whilst keeping one foot with the moderate wing, he will definitely give Jeb Bush a hell of a fight. Jeb is older and has been out of politics for a long time, and is a bit like Hillary in that he looks like he's almost too tired to bother running. These types of candidates are excellent red meat for younger upstarts like Rubio and Cruz to chip away at.

I'd break the fields into three different columns :

Right Wing/Tea Party
Cruz
Santorum
Carson
Jindal
etc

GOP Centrist
Rubio
Paul
Walker
Fiorina
Perry

Establishment
Bush
Christie


That's just counting the ones considering runs so far. Rubio's challenge will be to get support from each of the three sides. However, if Bush gets all the momentum early, he will probably quickly drown out the rest of the pack and leave Rubio behind.

I like your groupings but would put Paul in the Right Wing/Tea Party camp, but that's a small quibble.

We can dismiss all but Bush, Walker and Rubio from serious consideration, with the possible exception of Perry. I happen to believe Perry is an empty suit, but I could be wrong. I also happen to believe that Walker will wear well over the next few months and that's he's peaked way too early.

Republican primary voters are a strange bunch, but in the end are pragmatic. They'll fall in love with a right winger (such as the loathesome Pat Buchanan) but cast their votes for who they think can actually win the general election and only two names surface as possible Hillary-beaters: Bush and Rubio.

We shall see between Jeb and Marco quien es mas macho!

If it is Rubio, Hillary will have to check that with her own Latino, perhaps Julian Castro.
 
I like your groupings but would put Paul in the Right Wing/Tea Party camp, but that's a small quibble.

We can dismiss all but Bush, Walker and Rubio from serious consideration, with the possible exception of Perry. I happen to believe Perry is an empty suit, but I could be wrong. I also happen to believe that Walker will wear well over the next few months and that's he's peaked way too early.

Republican primary voters are a strange bunch, but in the end are pragmatic. They'll fall in love with a right winger (such as the loathesome Pat Buchanan) but cast their votes for who they think can actually win the general election and only two names surface as possible Hillary-beaters: Bush and Rubio.

We shall see between Jeb and Marco quien es mas macho!

If it is Rubio, Hillary will have to check that with her own Latino, perhaps Julian Castro.

True and also, there's this perception that most GOP voters are complete right wingers when I sense a majority of them are in the pragmatic middle, which is why the past two elections have sent moderate GOP nominees to the general election. I think the same will happen this time.
 
Its not the same thing as being able to speak the language and defend yourself compared to anti-Rubio ads done by ad agencies. Rubio will be capable of doing the same to his opponent and they in turn will not be able to respond as he can.

I don't think he's being angry and petulant, its just the style that particular journo is known to have as well as Rubio's style of jabbing back.

I just think next time you´re trying to big up Rubio, be more careful with a video. He looked awful to our community in that one. And I´m sure it will be used against him, as it should.
 
I just think next time you´re trying to big up Rubio, be more careful with a video. He looked awful to our community in that one. And I´m sure it will be used against him, as it should.

He said the same thing he would in English, which is push back against his immigration position. Again, its not about the substance of what he said in that video, its about his ability to reach out to communicate directly with hispanic voters, which other candidates don't have the luxury of.
 
I think there are nuances in Spanish that you probably didn´t and don´t get in that video. You must realise this. I mean, you could put any video or recording of him speaking Spanish and say yes, he is speaking Spanish, he can communicate with hispanic voters.

On the other hand, direct communication can have its negative side, it can also make one sound like a petulant dick to native speakers.
 
The democrats will bombard everyone with hours of footage, where Rubio comes across like a tea-party hard-liner and during the primaries he cant go too far away from these positions. Rep primary voters love some tough talk and thats where people like Cruz/Santorum do damage. Once the primaries are over he has change his stance on many issues - including immigration -, which is one of the worst things a politician can do. Flip-flopping is extremely harmful. Its certainly an advantage to speak spanish but in the end its easy to create huge contradictions between his presidential positions and positions of his past. Thats where Bush has an distinct advantages. He was/is much more moderate and has massive backing from the establishment/normal part of the party. He doesnt need to pander to the extreme right to win the primaries and his pragmatism allows him still to reach out at the right time.
 
Every candidate for potus has a few horrible videos they have to accept criticism for.

The other day some right wing nut explained to me that Rubio will never be able to distance himself from the moment he took a drink of water during a televised speech. The horror!
 
Rubio won't garner the GOP nomination and rightfully so. He's a fraud, the GOP token minority.

Rubio is a US Senator who has the exact same tenure Senator Obama had at the time he announced he was running for potus.

Both Rubio and Obama served in their state legislature, Rubio having been elected as the speaker of the Florida House of Representatives whereas Obama never assumed any leadership position in the Illinois State Senate.

Obama is a Harvard Law man, whereas the best Rubio could muster was a JD from "The U" (University of Miami, better known for its football program than its law school), for those who are into the pedigree of the education of politicians.

It can be argued that Rubio's political career is devoid of any accomplishment whatsoever as Obama's was, but I suspect you would not be the first to observe that fact.

The reality is that Republican voters ultimately a pragmatic lot. There was never a Pat Buchanan or Pat Robertson or Rick Santorum or Herman Cain Republican presidential nominee. The Reps back who they think are potential winners, at least going back to 1968. In 1964 they nominated a wackjob conservative who just weeks before his nomination speech in San Francisco had shamefully voted against the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (one of the few Reps to vote against the bill, as it happens), arguably the most important single piece of legislation the US Congress has ever enacted. That wackjob was hammered hard in November 1964 and the Reps have not made the same mistake since.

Nixon -- actually fairly liberal, but indeed a crook
Ford -- a political moderate
Reagan -- a political moderate (look at his record, not his rhetoric)
George HW Bush -- a political moderate
Dole -- a political moderate
George W Bush -- a political moderate
McCain -- a political moderate
Romney -- a political moderate

The mistake people make in thinking about Republicans like Nixon and Reagan is in thinking they were right-wing teabaggers. Even a 1 minute review of their actual records in office as potus (and in the case of Reagan, as governor as well) suggests the possibility that they could even be considered "liberal" by today's standards. Nixon -- a criminal, so that we're all clear, as well as a wretched human being -- created a number of environmental protection agencies and instituted wage and price controls (though soon thereafter abandoned for obvious reasons). Reagan raised taxes (both at the state and federal levels), established environmental protection agencies, expanded welfare, liberalized abortion laws before Roe v Wade, and expanded the role of size of both state and federal government.

Bush Sr was a blueblood New England Republican establishment, one of the last of his kind. Despite his plea for the Americans to read his lips, Bush did indeed raise taxes.

Dole was a dealmaker, a classic midwestern political who never met a government program he didn't like and was willing to raise taxes to make the trains run on time.

Bush Jr was the "compassionate conservative" who was, according to his critics, "soft on immigration". There's much to loathe about Bush, but he anything but the most conservative choice in the Rep field in 2000.

McCain is a "moderate" pariah in his own party and was nominated in a year when the Dem nominee was beatable.

Romney is a classic flip-flopper, but it can hardly be said of him that he was the favorite of the conservative wing of the Republican party.

All of this is to say that Reps always go who they think is the most electable candidate. It's pretty straightforward that in 2016 that means Jeb Bush. But if some reason Bush falls apart or can't get traction, it's a two man race between Walker and Rubio. It's way too early rule anything in, but Rubio cannot be ruled out.
 
Rubio is a US Senator who has the exact same tenure Senator Obama had at the time he announced he was running for potus.

Both Rubio and Obama served in their state legislature, Rubio having been elected as the speaker of the Florida House of Representatives whereas Obama never assumed any leadership position in the Illinois State Senate.

Obama is a Harvard Law man, whereas the best Rubio could muster was a JD from "The U" (University of Miami, better known for its football program than its law school), for those who are into the pedigree of the education of politicians.

It can be argued that Rubio's political career is devoid of any accomplishment whatsoever as Obama's was, but I suspect you would not be the first to observe that fact.

The reality is that Republican voters ultimately a pragmatic lot. There was never a Pat Buchanan or Pat Robertson or Rick Santorum or Herman Cain Republican presidential nominee. The Reps back who they think are potential winners, at least going back to 1968. In 1964 they nominated a wackjob conservative who just weeks before his nomination speech in San Francisco had shamefully voted against the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (one of the few Reps to vote against the bill, as it happens), arguably the most important single piece of legislation the US Congress has ever enacted. That wackjob was hammered hard in November 1964 and the Reps have not made the same mistake since.

Nixon -- actually fairly liberal, but indeed a crook
Ford -- a political moderate
Reagan -- a political moderate (look at his record, not his rhetoric)
George HW Bush -- a political moderate
Dole -- a political moderate
George W Bush -- a political moderate
McCain -- a political moderate
Romney -- a political moderate

The mistake people make in thinking about Republicans like Nixon and Reagan is in thinking they were right-wing teabaggers. Even a 1 minute review of their actual records in office as potus (and in the case of Reagan, as governor as well) suggests the possibility that they could even be considered "liberal" by today's standards. Nixon -- a criminal, so that we're all clear, as well as a wretched human being -- created a number of environmental protection agencies and instituted wage and price controls (though soon thereafter abandoned for obvious reasons). Reagan raised taxes (both at the state and federal levels), established environmental protection agencies, expanded welfare, liberalized abortion laws before Roe v Wade, and expanded the role of size of both state and federal government.

Bush Sr was a blueblood New England Republican establishment, one of the last of his kind. Despite his plea for the Americans to read his lips, Bush did indeed raise taxes.

Dole was a dealmaker, a classic midwestern political who never met a government program he didn't like and was willing to raise taxes to make the trains run on time.

Bush Jr was the "compassionate conservative" who was, according to his critics, "soft on immigration". There's much to loathe about Bush, but he anything but the most conservative choice in the Rep field in 2000.

McCain is a "moderate" pariah in his own party and was nominated in a year when the Dem nominee was beatable.

Romney is a classic flip-flopper, but it can hardly be said of him that he was the favorite of the conservative wing of the Republican party.

All of this is to say that Reps always go who they think is the most electable candidate. It's pretty straightforward that in 2016 that means Jeb Bush. But if some reason Bush falls apart or can't get traction, it's a two man race between Walker and Rubio. It's way too early rule anything in, but Rubio cannot be ruled out.

The trouble with Bush Jnr was he surrounded himself with a bunch of hawks, and then 9/11 happened.
 
The trouble with Bush Jnr was he surrounded himself with a bunch of hawks, and then 9/11 happened.

Pretty much this.

At the time, like a lot of other Americans I opposed the Iraq War after 9/11. Not because I'm a wooly-brained liberal but because Saddam kept Iran in check and if we took out Saddam, Iran would be unleashed and terror spread throughout the region.

It seems to have worked out that way.

But I have to admit that I did believe Saddam had to have WMD in his quiver. But better WMD be under Saddam's control than OBL's or the mullahs' control. But no, I don't believe Leo Strauss somehow ordered to the second gulf war from his grave.
 
Pretty much this.

At the time, like a lot of other Americans I opposed the Iraq War after 9/11. Not because I'm a wooly-brained liberal but because Saddam kept Iran in check and if we took out Saddam, Iran would be unleashed and terror spread throughout the region.

It seems to have worked out that way.


But I have to admit that I did believe Saddam had to have WMD in his quiver. But better WMD be under Saddam's control than OBL's or the mullahs' control. But no, I don't believe Leo Strauss somehow ordered to the second gulf war from his grave.

What?
 

The historical record suggests that there have been a few violent clashes in the region instigated by groups like Al Qaeda and ISIS since Saddam crawled into his hole.

Maybe it's been overhyped and everything is ok in that part of the world, just a few neighborhood punks here and there.
 
The historical record suggests that there have been a few violent clashes in the region instigated by groups like Al Qaeda and ISIS since Saddam crawled into his hole.

Maybe it's been overhyped and everything is ok in that part of the world, just a few neighborhood punks here and there.

I was more referring to the iran unleashed nonsense you posted
 
I was more referring to the iran unleashed nonsense you posted

Don't we have ample evidence that Iran is behind a lot of the nastiness in the region?

By taking down Saddam, who deserved his fate, we opened the door for nasty fukks to do nasty things in what is still called Iraq.

Let's walk through the historical facts quickly:

The Americans took down Saddam.
Jawad al-Maliki became prime minister of Iraq in 2006, selected by the Americans.
Maliki was (still is) a Shia politician.
The Iranian regime is a Shia regime.
Maliki took revenge, brutally, on Sunni Muslims.
Some Sunnis, not pleased with being brutalized, took the bull by the horns in the summer of 2014.
ISIS is what it is today.

Of course it's more complicated, but the bottom line is that Bush took out Saddam and what we got in his place was a Shia regime with close ties to Iran (who finally tired of the incompetent Maliki) and the shit has flown all over the place since then.

Shit has always flown all over the place in that part of the world, but it is an open question whether the world is better off without Saddam than with it. There's no good answer as Saddam was miserable scum, but miserable scum replaced him. 5,000 American lives and $2 trillion or whatever the US spent doesn't appear to have built a reliable, stable democracy in Iraq.

Meanwhile, Iran funds and abets terror wherever it pleases.

Do you not agree?
 
What often gets forgotten is that many pre-Arab spring dictators kept a lid of even more volatile situations within their specific middle eastern nation states. Its nearly impossible for Arab countries to transition to Democratic governance without first going through a decade or more of internal turmoil resulting from how each dictator played various groups against one another within their respective countries.
 
Has anyone here been following the madness in Indiana of late?

No, not March Madness. Indiana's version of RFRA and the ensuing debate over the extent of religious freedom.
 
Don't we have ample evidence that Iran is behind a lot of the nastiness in the region?

By taking down Saddam, who deserved his fate, we opened the door for nasty fukks to do nasty things in what is still called Iraq.

Let's walk through the historical facts quickly:

The Americans took down Saddam.
Jawad al-Maliki became prime minister of Iraq in 2006, selected by the Americans.
Maliki was (still is) a Shia politician.
The Iranian regime is a Shia regime.
Maliki took revenge, brutally, on Sunni Muslims.
Some Sunnis, not pleased with being brutalized, took the bull by the horns in the summer of 2014.
ISIS is what it is today.

Of course it's more complicated, but the bottom line is that Bush took out Saddam and what we got in his place was a Shia regime with close ties to Iran (who finally tired of the incompetent Maliki) and the shit has flown all over the place since then.

Shit has always flown all over the place in that part of the world, but it is an open question whether the world is better off without Saddam than with it. There's no good answer as Saddam was miserable scum, but miserable scum replaced him. 5,000 American lives and $2 trillion or whatever the US spent doesn't appear to have built a reliable, stable democracy in Iraq.

Meanwhile, Iran funds and abets terror wherever it pleases.

Do you not agree?

The issue is that you're conflating a lot of different things.

Your initial comment that Iran would be unleashed and terror spread across the region doesn't really bear out with what you've subsequently said.

America invaded Iraq. Defeated the Iraqi army and the Ba'ath party, before then demobilising hundreds of thousands of those men, taking away their jobs, pensions, possibility for government employment but seemed to leave them with their guns. Many of those guys have since joined the insurgencies, including by AQ and now ISIS. Al-Maliki as you said was also selected by the Americans.

The rise of ISIS has far more to do the brutal military dictators of the Arab countries as well as appalling American policies of the past 14 years in the region than it does to do with Iran.

Iraq would be an absolute disaster even if there was no Iran next door/ a different regime. The same can't be said for the war. A war which has perhaps irrevocably destroyed a country.

The shit has been all over the place because of the invasion, not because of Iran.
 
Has anyone here been following the madness in Indiana of late?

No, not March Madness. Indiana's version of RFRA and the ensuing debate over the extent of religious freedom.

Its absolutely crazy. The backlash has been excellent.
 
Its absolutely crazy. The backlash has been excellent.

Agreed.

I'm a First Amendment man, approaching absolutism on such things as free speech and the free exercise of religion. But the First Amendment does not, in my judgment, trump the Fourteenth Amendment. In short, my right to the free exercise of religion does not allow me to deny services on the basis of sexual orientation in the context of a public accommodation.

We're free to hate gays and refuse them entry into our homes, but the moment we enter a public space, such as a business, our right to hate gays cannot constituonally extend to denying them a service we would extend to everyone else.

Jesus Christ, were He alive today, would bake a cake for a gay wedding.
 
The issue is that you're conflating a lot of different things.

Your initial comment that Iran would be unleashed and terror spread across the region doesn't really bear out with what you've subsequently said.

America invaded Iraq. Defeated the Iraqi army and the Ba'ath party, before then demobilising hundreds of thousands of those men, taking away their jobs, pensions, possibility for government employment but seemed to leave them with their guns. Many of those guys have since joined the insurgencies, including by AQ and now ISIS. Al-Maliki as you said was also selected by the Americans.

The rise of ISIS has far more to do the brutal military dictators of the Arab countries as well as appalling American policies of the past 14 years in the region than it does to do with Iran.

Iraq would be an absolute disaster even if there was no Iran next door/ a different regime. The same can't be said for the war. A war which has perhaps irrevocably destroyed a country.

The shit has been all over the place because of the invasion, not because of Iran.

A mess of a post, so let me sort it out for you.

BOTH Iraq and Iran, in the pre-9/11 era, were bad actors. Both were functionally totalitarian regimes, the former being a secular totalitarian regime and the latter being a clerical totalitarian regime. Both fomented violence and suffering.

The second Gulf War -- I suspect there is no question here that the first Gulf War was necessary -- was poorly conceived. First, there was no reliable evidence that Saddam had WMD. Second, even if he did have WMD (there was never a suggestion that he had or was developing nukes, which would have been a game-changer) it was not in the strategic interest of the US or its allies to overthrow his regime, as sickening as it was. It may be obvious now and I'll grant it wasn't obvious in the days after 9/11, but it seemed to in the fall of 2011 that all the publucly known evidence was that Al Qaeda perpetrated 9/11 and that the sole task at that time was to destroy Al Qaeda.

What I've written before was that taking down Saddam created new problems for us that did not previously exist. I've also written that Iran was another bad actor -- from an American point of view at least -- in the region. Having these two regimes worry about each other every day was in America's strategic interest. Taking Saddam out was intended to result in a stable pro-American democracy, a democratic beachhead so to speak, but there was no reason to believe a stable democracy could be built under those circumstances. Shit ensued, which was entirely foreseeable.

Iran was and remains a bad actor in the region. A Shiite leader was installed as the Iraqi leader, with American support, and he immediately proceeded with a crackdown on Sunnis, clearly with the strong backing of Iran. That crackdown led to ISIS and here we are. Iran now has an ISIS problem too, but it's a problem largely of Iran's making. There could have been a peaceful reconciliation between the Sunni and the Shia, but that's about as likely as Liverpool lifting the English prem trophy.

The invasion of Iraq could never have been about WMD. It may have been a neocon nation-building dream but in the end it really was just a hunt for oil. What we did not know when we invaded Iraq was the fracking revolution 10 years later, which has turned the oil market on its head. We have abundant oil reserves now. But none of that was known or perhaps even knowable in 2001.

As outrageous as Saddam was, it wasn't worth taking him out. As for Iran, we'll see the fine print on the putative deal soon enough, but it too has been a bad actor for a long time in the region.
 
Agreed.

I'm a First Amendment man, approaching absolutism on such things as free speech and the free exercise of religion. But the First Amendment does not, in my judgment, trump the Fourteenth Amendment. In short, my right to the free exercise of religion does not allow me to deny services on the basis of sexual orientation in the context of a public accommodation.

We're free to hate gays and refuse them entry into our homes, but the moment we enter a public space, such as a business, our right to hate gays cannot constituonally extend to denying them a service we would extend to everyone else.

Jesus Christ, were He alive today, would bake a cake for a gay wedding.

I'm not surprised you are a self described first amendment man given how long winded you are.
 
I'm not surprised you are a self described first amendment man given how long winded you are.

Charming.

So that I may learn at your feet, which words in the post you quoted above would you consider superfluous?
 
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