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Thanks, you answered for me to Senorgregster.

As for Muslims and major threat. I firmly believe in egalitarianism and humanism - and any religion, Islam in particular, is opposed to that. Whatever other religions might have done in the past, the fact is that Islam is the most expansionist, aggressive religion of our current times. Western European nations with a substantial amount of Muslims all experience the same problems. Severe lack of integration, disrespect of their host's native values and ethics, radicalisation and so forth. They only comprise 5% - 15% of these nation's population yet cause so much trouble. Now with IS and the amount of fighters from Western nations going there is just another confirmation of the threat that Islam poses upon any secular nation.

I don't think the black flag will ever fly over the White House. If anything, Americans will be tougher to lull into sleep than their Western European colleagues. But action is required. Reformation of Islam would be welcome, but it would essentially mean it wouldn't be true Islam anymore. Ask any influential imam.

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The fact that they had to discontinue the space shuttle and are now reliant on soyoez to get their astronauts into space is exactly that. Of course, they will have a replacement shuttle at one stage, but they are in the process of developing it and until then Soyoez / Russian space technology for carrying humans into orbit is better than US's.

Space X's recent rocket launch exploded, so the privatisation of manned space flight is also still far off.
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Russia will be fine, they will suffer, but they will be fine. They can go through huge sacrifice if necessary as World War 2 has shown and the battle of Stalingrad was the turning point of the war.

Right...but even if that were true, what does that have to do with the US? You said that the Muslims in the USA pose an existential threat to the American way of life. Not European Muslims. Not Muslims from the ME. Not ISIS. American Muslims. I'm not talking about the history of any religion.

How do American Muslims, a tiny minority in the US and more well integrated than their counterparts in Europe, pose an existential threat to the American way of life? Creeping Sharia? You sometimes make good points but you couch it in hyperbolic nonsense and an insistence in bring Islam into discussions where it doesn't really belong. You can make a very convincing argument that Islam is creating an existential threat to the European 'way of life' (whatever that means). I would debate with you whether that was correct or not but there would certainly be valid points. The same is not true in the US and I'm not really sure why you insist on homogenising both the West and Islam/ Muslims across not only the West but across the world.

They discontinued it because they foresaw an era of co-operation with Russia, rather than the acrimony of the cold war. Had this been happening around the time of the discontinuation of the rocket, they would not have done it and would have continued using their own. That is quite clear.

.....What does that have to do with it? Any country can go through huge sacrifices. Yeah they'll survive (Iraq survived and North Korea survive) but their economy is already being hit hard.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...record-low-as-suffocating-sanctions-loom.html

Of course this won't particularly affect Putin and his friends as they have more than enough money to thrive. If might be slightly different for the average Russian.
 
Thanks for the details on that. I actually knew them (the Rummy photo always makes me angry) but I think it helps the discussion. The Russian losses are often overlooked. I've always wondered if the Russian troops were terribly wasted and what would have happened if they were utilized better. Seems so many were just sacrificed. The extra fronts in Europe were clearly a game changer albeit if "only" 400000 were lost. And we must not overlook all the allies landing on those beaches and fighting elsewhere.

The question that seems to have ruffled feathers (not my intention - apologies) wasn't why the US gets involved, it was when is it OK in people's view for the US to get involved. I get the sense that since WW2 most people would say never?

The losses were heavier than they needed to be as Stalin had spent the years before purging every level of Russian society, including the Armed forces but it is undeniable that the Soviets had the major effect on the war. The non-recognition of which still seems to annoy some of the Russians I meet now.
 
The US did not get involved because of the evil of Nazi Germany- on fact they turned back many Jews fleeing persecution (as did Britain and USSR, of course, was originally a German ally).
They got involved after Japan bombed their navy at Pearl Harbour in 1941, 2 years after the start of the war in Europe (and 10 years after Japan invaded China). They declared war on Japan, then Germany and Italy declared war on the US, and thus the US was then fully involved in WW2. Till then they had only been sending equipment to Britain.



Again, the US did not invade Iraq because Saddam killed his people. If that was the criteria, they would have to invade half the governments of the world friendly to them. Indeed, Iraq was a friendly nation to the US when Saddam was gassing Kurds in 1988- the chemical weapons he used were supplied by Western powers for the Iran Iraq war. They turned hostile when he invaded Kuwait.

"In August 2013, Foreign Policy charged, based on recently declassified CIA documents and interviews with former intelligence officials, that the U.S. had firm evidence of Iraqi chemical attacks beginning in 1983. Saddam's regime also received intelligence assistance from the CIA in 1987 prior to the Iraqis' early 1988 launch of sarin attacks to stop the potentially decisive Iranian offensive to capture the southern city of Basra, which, if successful, might have resulted in a collapse of Iraqi military and government"

A picture speaks a thousand words- in 1983:
handshake300.jpg

That's Donald Rumsfeld.
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/


About saving Europe's ass- I think it's true to an extent, but the Soviet sacrifice in WW2 far exceeds that of any other nation- 27 million Soviet citizens died out of a total Allied dead of 61 million (the US lost 400,000 soldiers)
80% of German deaths were on the Eastern front...
The Allies couldn't have sped from Normandy to Berlin without the utter drain on German resources that the Soviets caused.
The USSR and Germany were not allies, they had a non-aggression pact which meant they agreed to not attack each other, its not an alliance. Though they did agree on both counties claims in Poland (Germany - West, USSR - East).
 
The USA did save Europe not just from the Nazi's but also the communists and kept our countries afloat financially afterwards. Getting a bit annoyed with all the Anti American sentiment doing the rounds. As a Brit I'm incredibly appreciative of what the USA did for us. The Allies also saved the Soviets during World War 2 which is often forgotten.

Yes they lost the most people but that was because the Germans pretty much had a scorched earth policy towards their citizens and towns and used the Luftwaffe to dominate as well as Stalin's lack of concern for the average soldier. Stalin himself requested the aid of the west, himself pleading with the west to send arms , break the air superiority and food supplies admitting without this aid they would fall to Germany. Once the Germans were defeated Stalin agreed he'd help defeat the Japanese. Once we took control of the skies the Nazi air force weren't able to keep the eastern front supplied. The winter that hit left the German troops screwed whilst allowing the Soviets to regroup and resupply from the north Atlantic convoys. What allowed the Soviets to attack and head westward was down to the Allied air force taking control over the skies. This diverted the Luftwaffe from the east and allowed the Soviets to fight.

This whole we had it easy in the west is also pure bullshit as is the whole we ignored the victims of the Nazi regime. We organised and launched the largest invasion force the world has ever seen. US warships were sinking U-boats long before the USA officially joined the war. The vast majority of Royal Navy Ships in the Atlantic were ex US navy ships purchased in mass for a low cost to allow us to secure the Atlantic. Once the war finished the USA then loaned us the Money to rebuild, which stopped the communist dominance over Europe. Berlin itself, people forget was an island of western democracy well behind the wall that was supplied by aeroplane with the bill being picked up by the US.
 
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Are we really debating WW2 70 years later? I thought all arguments on that front would've been settled by now.
 
If anyone's interested in the current political climate in the US I high recomend the book "It's Even Worse Than It Looks: How the American Constitutional System Collided With the New Politics of Extremism" . Fascinating read.
 
Today's vote on arming Syrian moderates underscores a huge problem in US politics. The vote was actually an amendment to a spending bill to keep the government funded through mid-December. Two totally desperate topics merged making it politically difficult to vote freely.
 
Here is a REAL Republican advert to win the female vote....... Just... WOW...



The ad was written by frickin' women as well.
 
"Paid political advertisement paid for by the college republican national committee ... Washington, D.C"

Ugh. That was horrendous.

What's up with that drone stuff after the ad?
 
Vice president's son is a cokehead.

http://news.yahoo.com/bidens-youngest-son-leaves-navy-amid-drug-report-003510163--politics.html

"Hunter Biden raised eyebrows when he joined the board of a private Ukrainian gas company, just as his father and the Obama administration were working to wean Ukraine off Russian energy. At the time, the vice president's office brushed aside questions about the arrangement by saying that the younger Biden was a "private citizen." :lol:
incredible. Biden is a big advocate for the war against drugs and one of the reasons why the us legislation is so terrible. Obviously he doesnt fancy to arrest his own son. Biden is a lying, bigoted cnut.
 
incredible. Biden is a big advocate for the war against drugs and one of the reasons why the us legislation is so terrible. Obviously he doesnt fancy to arrest his own son. Biden is a lying, bigoted cnut.

Actally most of the policies that encompass the war on drugs were instituted by republicans.
When one Bush's daughters were charged with attempting to get prescription drugs what did you think about that? Also Bush was a coke head for years.
 

Wow. Of all people, he picks the one that said:
“I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro,” he said. Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, “and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch — they didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.

“And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” he asked. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...undy-on-blacks-are-they-better-off-as-slaves/
 
The losses were heavier than they needed to be as Stalin had spent the years before purging every level of Russian society, including the Armed forces but it is undeniable that the Soviets had the major effect on the war. The non-recognition of which still seems to annoy some of the Russians I meet now.
The scale of the Eastern front is difficult to wrap your mind around, especially for those like me being brought up with a basic American education. Battles like Stalingrad seem like footnotes to D-day, when in fact the Eastern front would have the largest war in history on its own by some distance...

Their sacrifice does seem to lack appreciation from my perspective, but there's a lot more that factors into that of course...
 
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Audio of Sarah Palin's daughter, Bristol, explaining the Palin family brawl out there in Alaska at some party. Thank god for families such as this to wave the banner of conservative Christian cracker values, fund raise for them, and nearly get into the White House. Enjoy.

 
One thing that should amaze me, but doesn't, is that with the US Congress having such a low approval rating you would think that many incumbants would be facing getting the boot, but right now it just doesn't seem that way. There have been very few incumbants losing their party's primary run off. It seems the attitude, regardless of party, is that Congress sucks but it is not my Congressperson who is the problem.
 
I hate them as much as anybody but it doesn't sound like she did anything wrong there. Except paying $300 for sunglasses, that is a particularly heinous crime.

Yeah I guess so. Nothing wrong with the Palins getting involved in massive drunken thuggy sounding brawls, especially considering their image in 'Murica. And I bet they were such victims, and Bristol was mumma bear sistah heroically defending her crew.
 
Yeah, that gray haired lady was definitely the villain. According of course to Bristol. I wonder if gray hair lady version is out there somewhere.

The whole thing is Sarah Palin has been constantly blowing racist dog whistles about Obama and how he's "shucking' and jivin'" and the right wing harping on and on about thugs and hip hop in the white house . . . and then there's this. Outrageous.
 
One thing that should amaze me, but doesn't, is that with the US Congress having such a low approval rating you would think that many incumbants would be facing getting the boot, but right now it just doesn't seem that way. There have been very few incumbants losing their party's primary run off. It seems the attitude, regardless of party, is that Congress sucks but it is not my Congressperson who is the problem.
It's not so much the incumbent representatives than the parties' continued duopoly that amazes me. Their financial stranglehold on a country of several hundred million is absurd.
 
There are plenty of revisionists about.

Like this guy below you here.

The USA did save Europe not just from the Nazi's but also the communists and kept our countries afloat financially afterwards. Getting a bit annoyed with all the Anti American sentiment doing the rounds. As a Brit I'm incredibly appreciative of what the USA did for us. The Allies also saved the Soviets during World War 2 which is often forgotten.

Yes they lost the most people but that was because the Germans pretty much had a scorched earth policy towards their citizens and towns and used the Luftwaffe to dominate as well as Stalin's lack of concern for the average soldier. Stalin himself requested the aid of the west, himself pleading with the west to send arms , break the air superiority and food supplies admitting without this aid they would fall to Germany. Once the Germans were defeated Stalin agreed he'd help defeat the Japanese. Once we took control of the skies the Nazi air force weren't able to keep the eastern front supplied. The winter that hit left the German troops screwed whilst allowing the Soviets to regroup and resupply from the north Atlantic convoys. What allowed the Soviets to attack and head westward was down to the Allied air force taking control over the skies. This diverted the Luftwaffe from the east and allowed the Soviets to fight.

This whole we had it easy in the west is also pure bullshit as is the whole we ignored the victims of the Nazi regime. We organised and launched the largest invasion force the world has ever seen. US warships were sinking U-boats long before the USA officially joined the war. The vast majority of Royal Navy Ships in the Atlantic were ex US navy ships purchased in mass for a low cost to allow us to secure the Atlantic. Once the war finished the USA then loaned us the Money to rebuild, which stopped the communist dominance over Europe. Berlin itself, people forget was an island of western democracy well behind the wall that was supplied by aeroplane with the bill being picked up by the US.

The US didn't "save" Europe. The USSR defeated Germany, and the US and the other allies, like the UK and Canada swept in to stop the Soviets from occupying the whole shebang.

The Allies also, did not save the Soviets in WW2. The Soviets saved themselves. The aid the allies rendered to the Soviet Union allowed them to more speedily defeat Germany, but it did not facilitate their ability to win. That statement "The Allies also saved the Soviets during World War 2" Is one of the most uneducated, disparaging and frankly ignorant concepts that comes out of WW2. You don't see the Russians or former Soviet States/People saying "we saved the British" or "we saved the French" or "you were only able to stay in the war because of what we did". However here are some facts. North Africa? Impossible without the Soviets. Italy? Impossible without the Soviets. Overlord? Impossible without the Soviets.

Your entire post is just a train wreck. You are basically repeating the worst, and most incorrect propaganda that exists regarding the Eastern Front. Incoming wall of text.

Lend Lease from the United States of America to the USSR was approved by Congress on the 7th of November 1941. The first substantial shipments of said Lend Lease arrived in the USSR in or around February/March of 1942. The British sent obsolete tanks to the Soviets in 1941. Of which these tanks accounted for approximately 2% of the active "medium" and "heavy" AFV's that saw combat in and around Moscow. Alexander Hill, a Canadian Historian suggests this number is as high as 40%, however, he is classifying light tanks as mediums and medium tanks as heavy. The total number of tanks the British sent in this critical juncture were 466 if memory serves. These were Matilta, Valentine and Tetrarch tanks. All obsolete models from the African theater. Which were laughable when compared with the contemporary Soviet Tanks in use. T-34's and KV-1's.

Following the unbelievable success of Barbarossa in the opening months of the invasion of the USSR Germany was at its absolute zenith in terms of military strength versus the USSR. This differential was never going to be higher. The entirety of Red Army forces in the west were virtually wiped out. Another myth regarding the Eastern Front. Divisions form Siberia were moved to Moscow to take part in the Moscow Counter offensive in November and December. This is not true. Siberian Divisions were not used. New formations of men were simply raised for the defense. The Siberian Divisions stayed where they were.

So what happened in November and December 1941? The Soviet Union reformed armies in front of the German advance on Moscow and launched a bloody counter attack which effectively ended the German chance to win the war right then and there. I will add that the entire concept that Germany ever had an actual chance to win the war is a fallacy itself. However I will proceed with the popular conception the Soviet Union would have magically surrendered has Moscow fallen.

The German plan to defeat the USSR was to smash the army and capture Moscow and Leningrad. The expectation then was that government of the USSR would collapse. In reality the government was not going to collapse and the manner in which the Germans were burning, pillaging and murdering across the USSR ensured that the USSR would have to face total defeat before capitulation was possible. Total defeat entails the occupation of the majority of the USSRs manpower and industry (a mathematical impossibility).

To sum this portion up. At the USSRs absolute most vulnerable position in the entire war, at Germany's zenith in the entire war, the USSR stopped Germany at Leningrad and at Moscow. They did this by themselves. Facing the brunt of the Wehrmacht (which they did the entire war). If we believe that the USSR could have lost, and that had Leningrad and Moscow fallen the Soviet Government would have given up, then this was the only point in the entire war that this was a possibility. Without any measurable help from the West, the Soviet Union ended that threat on their own, by themselves.

From that point on, the war was a forgone conclusion.

Pulling another number from my ass (just a few % off at most) around 62% of all lend lease arrived to the USSR in 1944-1945. When you consider the lag time of disembarkation to the arrival at the business end of Soviet industry or the front the figure actually goes even higher. Goods sent late in 1943, arrived in 1944, but these goods are not counted in the figure I give. Even the most conservative historian will accept that the war was lost by Germany by 1944, at point at which the vast majority of all this "war winning" material arrived AFTER.

Referring to your comments regarding the air power of the western allies. The Red army also had a very large air force which battered the Germans. The actual German losses by front are fairly equal. According to my sources the western allies edge that category slightly. The Red Air-force inflicted a comparable blow to the Luftwaffe as did the Western Allies.

Something that most of you will probably not know but it is very important in understanding "losses" regarding German and Soviet numbers. The Germans only tabulated a tank or an aircraft lost, if it was actually irreparably lost. The Soviets accounted every tank, truck, aircraft that had to be repaired as also "lost". What this means practically is that Soviet tanks are frequently counted several times over as destroyed. So when you see figures that suggest the Germans killed 10 Soviet Tanks for every Tank they lost. These figures are based on this apples to oranges comparison.

The simple fact regarding WW2 is this. The USSR "won" the war in Europe with some help from the West. The USA "won" the war with Japan with some help from the Soviets. I'll even suggest the USSR would have won on their own, and the USA would have won on their own. The issue however isn't could they have, it is would they have wanted to have. Preventing millions of more casualties, I think the monkey pile on Japan and Germany was preferred by all parties.

To swing this around to American politics. The lessons learned from WW2 are exactly why the USA does what it does today. Yes they interfere, yes they destabilize. The US does this to try and prevent large scale wars from occurring. Even more important in a post nuclear age where "the end of the world" is a possibility if two nuclear powers get their jimmies rustled. Small scale low intensity conflicts are preferable to world wars IMHO. A necessary evil in that regard.
 
Vice president's son is a cokehead.

http://news.yahoo.com/bidens-youngest-son-leaves-navy-amid-drug-report-003510163--politics.html

"Hunter Biden raised eyebrows when he joined the board of a private Ukrainian gas company, just as his father and the Obama administration were working to wean Ukraine off Russian energy. At the time, the vice president's office brushed aside questions about the arrangement by saying that the younger Biden was a "private citizen." :lol:

You could not make it up. obviously all democratic and for the Ukrainian people.
 
Like this guy below you here.



The US didn't "save" Europe. The USSR defeated Germany, and the US and the other allies, like the UK and Canada swept in to stop the Soviets from occupying the whole shebang.

The Allies also, did not save the Soviets in WW2. The Soviets saved themselves. The aid the allies rendered to the Soviet Union allowed them to more speedily defeat Germany, but it did not facilitate their ability to win. That statement "The Allies also saved the Soviets during World War 2" Is one of the most uneducated, disparaging and frankly ignorant concepts that comes out of WW2. You don't see the Russians or former Soviet States/People saying "we saved the British" or "we saved the French" or "you were only able to stay in the war because of what we did". However here are some facts. North Africa? Impossible without the Soviets. Italy? Impossible without the Soviets. Overlord? Impossible without the Soviets.

Your entire post is just a train wreck. You are basically repeating the worst, and most incorrect propaganda that exists regarding the Eastern Front. Incoming wall of text.

Lend Lease from the United States of America to the USSR was approved by Congress on the 7th of November 1941. The first substantial shipments of said Lend Lease arrived in the USSR in or around February/March of 1942. The British sent obsolete tanks to the Soviets in 1941. Of which these tanks accounted for approximately 2% of the active "medium" and "heavy" AFV's that saw combat in and around Moscow. Alexander Hill, a Canadian Historian suggests this number is as high as 40%, however, he is classifying light tanks as mediums and medium tanks as heavy. The total number of tanks the British sent in this critical juncture were 466 if memory serves. These were Matilta, Valentine and Tetrarch tanks. All obsolete models from the African theater. Which were laughable when compared with the contemporary Soviet Tanks in use. T-34's and KV-1's.

Following the unbelievable success of Barbarossa in the opening months of the invasion of the USSR Germany was at its absolute zenith in terms of military strength versus the USSR. This differential was never going to be higher. The entirety of Red Army forces in the west were virtually wiped out. Another myth regarding the Eastern Front. Divisions form Siberia were moved to Moscow to take part in the Moscow Counter offensive in November and December. This is not true. Siberian Divisions were not used. New formations of men were simply raised for the defense. The Siberian Divisions stayed where they were.

So what happened in November and December 1941? The Soviet Union reformed armies in front of the German advance on Moscow and launched a bloody counter attack which effectively ended the German chance to win the war right then and there. I will add that the entire concept that Germany ever had an actual chance to win the war is a fallacy itself. However I will proceed with the popular conception the Soviet Union would have magically surrendered has Moscow fallen.

The German plan to defeat the USSR was to smash the army and capture Moscow and Leningrad. The expectation then was that government of the USSR would collapse. In reality the government was not going to collapse and the manner in which the Germans were burning, pillaging and murdering across the USSR ensured that the USSR would have to face total defeat before capitulation was possible. Total defeat entails the occupation of the majority of the USSRs manpower and industry (a mathematical impossibility).

To sum this portion up. At the USSRs absolute most vulnerable position in the entire war, at Germany's zenith in the entire war, the USSR stopped Germany at Leningrad and at Moscow. They did this by themselves. Facing the brunt of the Wehrmacht (which they did the entire war). If we believe that the USSR could have lost, and that had Leningrad and Moscow fallen the Soviet Government would have given up, then this was the only point in the entire war that this was a possibility. Without any measurable help from the West, the Soviet Union ended that threat on their own, by themselves.

From that point on, the war was a forgone conclusion.

Pulling another number from my ass (just a few % off at most) around 62% of all lend lease arrived to the USSR in 1944-1945. When you consider the lag time of disembarkation to the arrival at the business end of Soviet industry or the front the figure actually goes even higher. Goods sent late in 1943, arrived in 1944, but these goods are not counted in the figure I give. Even the most conservative historian will accept that the war was lost by Germany by 1944, at point at which the vast majority of all this "war winning" material arrived AFTER.

Referring to your comments regarding the air power of the western allies. The Red army also had a very large air force which battered the Germans. The actual German losses by front are fairly equal. According to my sources the western allies edge that category slightly. The Red Air-force inflicted a comparable blow to the Luftwaffe as did the Western Allies.

Something that most of you will probably not know but it is very important in understanding "losses" regarding German and Soviet numbers. The Germans only tabulated a tank or an aircraft lost, if it was actually irreparably lost. The Soviets accounted every tank, truck, aircraft that had to be repaired as also "lost". What this means practically is that Soviet tanks are frequently counted several times over as destroyed. So when you see figures that suggest the Germans killed 10 Soviet Tanks for every Tank they lost. These figures are based on this apples to oranges comparison.

The simple fact regarding WW2 is this. The USSR "won" the war in Europe with some help from the West. The USA "won" the war with Japan with some help from the Soviets. I'll even suggest the USSR would have won on their own, and the USA would have won on their own. The issue however isn't could they have, it is would they have wanted to have. Preventing millions of more casualties, I think the monkey pile on Japan and Germany was preferred by all parties.

To swing this around to American politics. The lessons learned from WW2 are exactly why the USA does what it does today. Yes they interfere, yes they destabilize. The US does this to try and prevent large scale wars from occurring. Even more important in a post nuclear age where "the end of the world" is a possibility if two nuclear powers get their jimmies rustled. Small scale low intensity conflicts are preferable to world wars IMHO. A necessary evil in that regard.

Very interesting read - cheers.

My concern with the small proxy wars are that they lead to the wider conflict, just as ww2.
 
Don't know how many of you know about this "Flip a district" campaign Bill Maher has launched recently, where he's trying to unseat Congressman John Kline in Minnesota in the election. He assembled a panel with some conservatives and liberals and had a pretty interesting conversation:



Truly amazing how deluded these right wingers are. That guy sitting next to Bill seemed like an alright fella though even if he was wrong on pretty much every issue (at least he took the jokes well). But that blonde? Geez.

Also Ana Marie Cox is so hot.
 
Republican dingbats likely to take control of the Senate in today's midterm elections. Will make it tougher for them to do nothing but block things as they will be in control of both houses. Now it's up to them to create bills if they remember how to. Should be fun. I bet first up will be repeal the Affordable Care Act. I wouldn't be surprised to see Republicans tear each other apart as the sane ones try to actually do something whereas the others posture about Obama hating America.
 
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