amolbhatia50k
Sneaky bum time - Vaccination status: dozed off
Is he worse on the ball than Rice?
I’m sorry, but I think you misread it.
His completion rate is 84 % in a team where the average is 73 %. I would argue that is impressive. His short, medium and long range passing completion rate is 90,4 %, 85,9 % and 74 % compared to team average of 85 %, 81 % and 48 %. Not only that, he is also their most progressive passer and the one who completes the most passes into the final third.
His expected assist is also quite high for a a central midfielder at 0,14 per 90 min. Casemiro, McT and Mainoo stands at 0,04.
Onanas passing stat is actually quite similar to Rice, but alot more creative. In other terms, his interception numbers is much, much lower than Rice. But the amount of recoveries they makes are basically the same.
If Onana played in Brighton his stats would be much more impressive. Now, he is a bit of a diamond in the rough and much better value.
The only thing I’d disagree with here is Tchouameni is all 3 in my opinion. He’s not a Rodri but he’s a very good passer.I think this is like suggesting we sign a "Salah type" for RW. Would be great, but the odds against it happening are really high.
Rodri's "type" is being the best DM in the world.
We're far, far more likely to end up with someone who has 2 of Rodri's 3 main traits:
1) Physical presence
2) Good as a lone DM
3) Quality passer
From what I've seen of Onana, he has the physical presence and is a good short passer, but the more creative passing part of the job and being ready to play alone as a DM are question marks.
Someone like Zubimendi seems to have 2 and 3 but not 1. Tchouameni, Palhinha and Ugarte have 1 and 2 but not 3. Casemiro in his prime really only had 1 and 2.
So, likeliest outcome to hope for is that we compromise a bit on the technical side and eventually replace Bruno with another technically gifted midfielder and lose a bit of end product but Hojlund, Garnacho, a RW and 2 #8s (Mainoo and either Mount or the new Bruno replacement) is enough going forward, or we move on from Bruno immediately, sign a #8 too and have 3 midfielders that are all strong technically and try to keep the ball more, with again less direct end product, but hopefully everyone creates and finishes a bit more with a midfield that can run games out there.
I agree Rodri is technically superior.
Can you name a player that covers a defensive transition and offers similar technical levels to Rodri from DM though? I can’t I’ll be honest.
This is also the issue with some of the expectation going into the summer. We know we can’t just buy a big name and hope it works we know we need to consider the overall profiles in the squad but when players matching most of that criteria (but not all) are found we don’t as fans tend to be happy with it.I find the Rodri shouts in here a bit wild tbf. He's one of the best DMs the league has seen and has been for c. 2 seasons. The odds of finding another player like that are minute. I kind of agree with @NoPace that essentially you're looking for a profile of player that is the tier below that or can be around that tier of mix which Onana is very much capable of.
Players like Maxence Caqueret and Amadou Haidara seem to maintain their technical ability despite their team going through a poor run of form.
Interesting that you mention Harara, because this is something he has added to his game this season. He has not been much more progressive than Onana leading up this season. There is not much between Onana or a player like Rice either.
That being said, I really like Harara, but the lack of games he has played for RBL is a bit of a worry.
Haidara has always had the passing range, I think the uptake in his passing numbers has come from him holding his position more than in past seasons.
On average each pass Haidara completed, in Bundesliga between 19 and 23, travelled 14,75 yards and 4,75 progressive yards. For Onana the same stat this season is 16,78 yards and 4,70 yards.
So, up until this season Haidara has not had more range than Onana.
That Haidara pass the ball more this season is obviously tactical.
We sort of need something in the middle of both. Whilst it would be great to get a deep lying playmaker, we also need someone who wins duels, has an aerial presence, and isn’t completely overrun in transitions. Bruno Fernandes is here for the foreseeable, Mainoo is still physically growing to handle full 90s — our midfield lacks defensive presence as much as it lacks technical ability, really.however, I’m on the side of wanting a DLP/6 that can give us more control in possession.
We sort of need something in the middle of both. Whilst it would be great to get a deep lying playmaker, we also need someone who wins duels, has an aerial presence, and isn’t completely overrun in transitions. Bruno Fernandes is here for the foreseeable, Mainoo is still physically growing to handle full 90s — our midfield lacks defensive presence as much as it lacks technical ability, really.
——
In my mind I want a new no.6 and a no.8. Casemiro and Eriksen will go. Leave a midfield of No.6, Mainoo, Fernandes, no.8, McTominay*
* and he can probably go if the price is right too
Played such little football he genuinely escaped my thoughts. I guess that ruins any chance of two midfielders, unless McTominay goes.You forgot Mount
Played such little football he genuinely escaped my thoughts. I guess that ruins any chance of two midfielders, unless McTominay goes.
On average each pass Haidara completed, in Bundesliga between 19 and 23, travelled 14,75 yards and 4,75 progressive yards. For Onana the same stat this season is 16,78 yards and 4,70 yards.
So, up until this season Haidara has not had more range than Onana.
That Haidara pass the ball more this season is obviously tactical.
Despite this, Haidra makes more passes than Onana, completes more passes, and moves the ball forward more through passing per 90 minutes than Onana.
Stats are dangerous without context. Rice on average pass the ball 25 percent more with a higher completion rate this year compared to last year. Why?
Haidara plays in a team that dominates the ball to a much bigger degree than Onana. Haidara om average completed 45 passes per 90 min. For a team that on average completes 486 passes. 9,25 % of the team total. His completion rate is 84 % in a team with an average of 82 %.
Onana completes 37 passes per 90 min for a team that completes 297 passes per 90 min the PL. 12,5 % of the team average. And his completion rate is 84 % in a team with an average of 73 %.
Put Onana into the RBL-side and you can be sure his numbers would improve significantly. Put Haidara into the Everton side and his numbers would look much worse.
This is also the issue with some of the expectation going into the summer. We know we can’t just buy a big name and hope it works we know we need to consider the overall profiles in the squad but when players matching most of that criteria (but not all) are found we don’t as fans tend to be happy with it.
I think Onana represents a very sensible compromise given the emergence of Mainoo.
I think most of us could agree the biggest tactical issue this season has been we’ve ceded the middle of the pitch on transitions because our CBs (who have been rotated and injured to ridiculous levels) and DMs can’t cover large spaces well enough. So we press high but drop deep to defend (which in my other thread I actually think was sensible to do this season).
Players like Onana help to make this less of an issue. He’s got the physical attributes we so sorely lack and I think is decent on the ball too. I don’t think he’s an elite playmaking DM but we don’t want him for that role. We need someone to defend large spaces who can get the ball to our carriers (Mainoo, Mount, Garnacho) or our creators (Bruno, Mount, Shaw, Dalot) and I think he’s capable of doing that.
Well for me we’d be going from:I think we also have to factor in the age profile of Onana v Rodri (Who is currently at his peak) here as well as the type of teams they play in. Onana has all the tools to become a top DM with time, so he's not a bad choice at all if the fee is reasonable.
I also like Caqueret at Lyon and also Varela at Porto as alternatives, but I do think we should have 2 solid options in that DM role if we sell Casemiro this summer - McTominay can have an important place in our squad, but he should not be our only option to start alongside Mainoo if our sole DM gets injured for a long time.
That said, I think even Onana will struggle if we then don't add a couple of defenders who can play a sustained high press. We might even see much better performances from Casemiro as well if we solved this issue.
Very good points. Also, looking at Rodri, who's to say he'd be the perfect DM for our structure. Sure he has good physical presence and can pass but left alone in our midfeild like our players who's played that role, he'd struggle athletically. If we are going to stick to that tactical structure, you could argue that being more of an athlete is a higher priority trait for us than being the best passer.I think this is like suggesting we sign a "Salah type" for RW. Would be great, but the odds against it happening are really high.
Rodri's "type" is being the best DM in the world.
We're far, far more likely to end up with someone who has 2 of Rodri's 3 main traits:
1) Physical presence
2) Good as a lone DM
3) Quality passer
From what I've seen of Onana, he has the physical presence and is a good short passer, but the more creative passing part of the job and being ready to play alone as a DM are question marks.
Someone like Zubimendi seems to have 2 and 3 but not 1. Tchouameni, Palhinha and Ugarte have 1 and 2 but not 3. Casemiro in his prime really only had 1 and 2.
So, likeliest outcome to hope for is that we compromise a bit on the technical side and eventually replace Bruno with another technically gifted midfielder and lose a bit of end product but Hojlund, Garnacho, a RW and 2 #8s (Mainoo and either Mount or the new Bruno replacement) is enough going forward, or we move on from Bruno immediately, sign a #8 too and have 3 midfielders that are all strong technically and try to keep the ball more, with again less direct end product, but hopefully everyone creates and finishes a bit more with a midfield that can run games out there.
Very good points. Also, looking at Rodri, who's to say he'd be the perfect DM for our structure. Sure he has good physical presence and can pass but left alone in our midfeild like our players who's played that role, he'd struggle athletically. If we are going to stick to that tactical structure, you could argue that being more of an athlete is a higher priority trait for us than being the best passer.
Well for me we’d be going from:
Onana
Dalot Varane Martinez Shaw
Casemiro
Bruno Mainoo/Mount
Garnacho Højlund Rashford
To ideally something like:
Onana
Dalot Diomande Martinez Shaw
Onana
Bruno Mainoo/Mount
Garnacho Højlund Rashford
That would make a huge impact in my opinion.
Whilst we don't play City and Liverpool every week we do make teams look like City and Liverpool everytime we play. This is where the physicality comes into play, we are conceding far too many shots at goal and this is mainly due to lack of midfield protection.His progressive passes and progressive carries stats are below average, his misleading expected assist stats stem from a high amount of knockdowns, Harry Maguire is in the 91 percentile among CBs for expected assists for the same reason as Onana. If we played teams like City and Liverpool every week this guy would be a great asset, but when we need to dictate play and pass incisively he will come up short.
Players like Maxence Caqueret and Amadou Haidara seem to maintain their technical ability despite their team going through a poor run of form.
Whilst we don't play City and Liverpool every week we do make teams look like City and Liverpool everytime we play. This is where the physicality comes into play, we are conceding far too many shots at goal and this is mainly due to lack of midfield protection.
Whilst we don't play City and Liverpool every week we do make teams look like City and Liverpool everytime we play. This is where the physicality comes into play, we are conceding far too many shots at goal and this is mainly due to lack of midfield protection.
Haidara
Interesting that you mention Harara
Haidra
Hindsight is 20/20 as they say. Rewind to the end of last season, we had Bruno, Eriksen and Casemiro in midfield as starters. Of the three, the one most in need of an upgrade was Eriksen. Everyone was very happy with Casemiro, some even called him player of season. The main issue we all had with Casemiro was that we didn't have a back up for him, hence, Amrabat for £10m. We were never going to spend £65m or so on Casemiro's back up.Another signing that should have been done in the summer in place of Mount.
Essentially getting a 6 to replace Casemiro should be high on the priorities given how uninspiring Amrabat has been in his stint at the club.
Kobbie has shown enough promise to shape the acquisition of future midfield players around his influence so Onana provides balance in this regard. Gives license for Mainoo & Bruno to advance as 8's with the possibility of an understudy to Bruno being signed (to cover his frailties which at the higher levels will be detrimental).
Alternatively pair Onana and Kobbie in deeper areas and let Bruno venture forward as a 10 which as a scenario would be the best news for Mount who's career best performances / form was within this position.
One of the weirder things I’ve seen posted on here, a Snapchat screenshot of some other lads opinion.What the hell is this.