All Time Premier League Fantasy Draft

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Cutch said:
I like @coolredwine team the best. Proper established Premier League players there. No flash in the pans or current flavours of the month
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It will be interesting to see how this draft pans out with so many players who were great for the club they'll be used from for a season or two. Personally I rate Nani for United higher than Robben at Chelsea for example if we're speaking peak with that standard. Was nominated for Ballon d'Or in 2011, Uniteds players player of the year and included in the team of the season. He maintained that form from the second half of the 09/10 season all the way until the 22nd of January 2012 that he suffered the injury and quickly became a shadow of himself.

Robben played 67 EPL games overall for Chelsea, scored 15 goals, and far from all were at his peak level. Nani played 86 EPL games in those three seasons, scoring 20 goals, almost setting a United EPL assist record.

I'll happily sit back and see what definition people take on the peak for this draft before I get involved in the match threads. I am leaning towards being more open minded as it makes the draft more interesting, but at the same time it would be a bit poor towards the managers who strictly followed the previous set guide lines.
 
Annahnomoss said:
It will be interesting to see how this draft pans out with so many players who were great for the club they'll be used from for a season or two. Personally I rate Nani for United higher than Robben at Chelsea for example if we're speaking peak with that standard. Was nominated for Ballon d'Or in 2011, Uniteds players player of the year and included in the team of the season. He maintained that form from the second half of the 09/10 season all the way until the 22nd of January 2012 that he suffered the injury and quickly became a shadow of himself.

Robben played 67 EPL games overall for Chelsea, scored 15 goals, and far from all were at his peak level. Nani played 86 EPL games in those three seasons, scoring 20 goals, almost setting a United EPL assist record.

I'll happily sit back and see what definition people take on the peak for this draft before I get involved in the match threads. I am leaning towards being more open minded as it makes the draft more interesting, but at the same time it would be a bit poor towards the managers who strictly followed the previous set guide lines.
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Its gonna be a hard one to judge for sure. How do we compare the likes of Matic to Speed say. Matic has had one very good season of PL football but Speed is a PL legend 2nd I think on the list of all time appearances. I'm not sure if he's ever had a single season as good as Matic but for his longevity he has to be rated higher surely.

I think a player should have made atleast 100 PL appearances to be eligible for this in hindsight.
 
Annahnomoss said:
It will be interesting to see how this draft pans out with so many players who were great for the club they'll be used from for a season or two. Personally I rate Nani for United higher than Robben at Chelsea for example if we're speaking peak with that standard. Was nominated for Ballon d'Or in 2011, Uniteds players player of the year and included in the team of the season. He maintained that form from the second half of the 09/10 season all the way until the 22nd of January 2012 that he suffered the injury and quickly became a shadow of himself.

Robben played 67 EPL games overall for Chelsea, scored 15 goals, and far from all were at his peak level. Nani played 86 EPL games in those three seasons, scoring 20 goals, almost setting a United EPL assist record.

I'll happily sit back and see what definition people take on the peak for this draft before I get involved in the match threads. I am leaning towards being more open minded as it makes the draft more interesting, but at the same time it would be a bit poor towards the managers who strictly followed the previous set guide lines.
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Yes, it'll be interesting to see how certain players fare.

I predict that it's going to be hard to make something like your Nani > Robben argument count for something in terms of votes. Many are going to stick with Robben > Nani regardless of the evidence.

But we'll see soon enough.
 
I might be hurting myself with this but the OP rules do say "peak form".
 
Cutch said:
I think a player should have made atleast 100 PL appearances to be eligible for this in hindsight.
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That was the guideline for the previous Premiership draft. It was a good way of flushing out those who peaked elsewhere or didn't maintain their form for long enough.

With the restriction here sitting at one season of Premiership football, and the reference to 'career peak', it seems fairly clear that is the basis for judging players.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Yes, it'll be interesting to see how certain players fare.

I predict that it's going to be hard to make something like your Nani > Robben argument count for something in terms of votes. Many are going to stick with Robben > Nani regardless of the evidence.

But we'll see soon enough.
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No doubt about it.

Cutch said:
Its gonna be a hard one to judge for sure. How do we compare the likes of Matic to Speed say. Matic has had one very good season of PL football but Speed is a PL legend 2nd I think on the list of all time appearances. I'm not sure if he's ever had a single season as good as Matic but for his longevity he has to be rated higher surely.

I think a player should have made atleast 100 PL appearances to be eligible for this in hindsight.
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It would have been clever and made it a different draft all together if the peak form was averaged over 100 PL appearances. As it stands we'll see how people go about the voting, I can see Nani being received poorly for example while neutral or liked players like Robben and Matic will be rated more positively.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Yes, it'll be interesting to see how certain players fare.

I predict that it's going to be hard to make something like your Nani > Robben argument count for something in terms of votes. Many are going to stick with Robben > Nani regardless of the evidence.

But we'll see soon enough.
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In fairness that's only one take on the evidence and equally there's plenty of evidence to show Robben leaving full-backs for dead in ways that Nani never really managed. So in this case it's not really a reputation v evidence debate.
 
This thing has come up various times in previous drafts i.e. peak vs longevity. Ronaldinho or Giggs, for example. At the end of the day there's no need to complicate this by adding stuff to the rules, we are all familiar with these players enough to "guess" how they will perform in a hypothetical game given we are roughly looking at them at their peak, having said that it's not wise to discard longevity completely. In the end, depends on player to player, and we cannot strictly adhere to one way of evaluation.
 
Gio said:
In fairness that's only one take on the evidence and equally there's plenty of evidence to show Robben leaving full-backs for dead in ways that Nani never really managed. So in this case it's not really a reputation v evidence debate.
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Having restrictions in terms of anything but, say, "prime" versus "clearly over the hill" is a bit pointless, then - isn't it?

A: He wasn't at his best, regularly, for Club X between 2006 and 2008, which is the relevant period.

B: But he was still capable of skinning his man in style at any given time - so why wouldn't he do just that here?
 
Aldo said:
This thing has come up various times in previous drafts i.e. peak vs longevity. Ronaldinho or Giggs, for example. At the end of the day there's no need to complicate this by adding stuff to the rules, we are all familiar with these players enough to "guess" how they will perform in a hypothetical game given we are roughly looking at them at their peak, having said that it's not wise to discard longevity completely. In the end, depends on player to player, and we cannot strictly adhere to one way of evaluation.
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Has it ever really come up if Giggs should be rated more than Dinho? Other than perhaps in a particular set up, Dinho will always be rated higher.

Nani vs Robben in PL is not as straight forward IMO. Robben edges it but it may come down to personal criteria of 'peak' for every voter.
 
crappycraperson said:
Has it ever really come up if Giggs should be rated more than Dinho?
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It won't long as 'peak' is the judging criteria but if you want to look at the two careers and then ask in a hypothetical game, who will perform better? There is no answer. One is likely to give at least a 7 while the other can go from 3 to 1 million.
 
Aldo said:
It won't long as 'peak' is the judging criteria but if you want to look at the two careers and then ask in a hypothetical game, who will perform better? There is no answer. One is likely to give at least a 7 while the other can go from 3 to 1 million.
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I am not sure if I understand what you mean. Ronaldinho's peak was long enough that it is not an issue when it comes to comparing him with others. Gigg's longevity is also confused with consistency. He had several lull periods in his career, was not as if he maintained a singular top level through his career with us.
The same people who hiss at our current wingers for lack of consistency would also have been on his back in 90's and early 00's.
 
crappycraperson said:
I am not sure if I understand what you mean. Ronaldinho's peak was long enough that it is not an issue when it comes to comparing him with others. Gigg's longevity is also confused with consistency. He had several lull periods in his career, was not as if he maintained a singular top level through his career with us.
The same people who hiss at our current wingers for lack of consistency would also have been on his back in 90's and early 00's.
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Longevity doesn't exactly mean not having a poor game in 20 years. The fact that he was playing at a top level and was a key player in a league dominating team more than 15 years apart is something that would get neglected if peak is the only thing considered. So is evaluating everyone based on peak, fair, given it favours a particular pool of players like Dinho and goes against others? It's not fair, but it is the closest to a practical solution here. What shouldn't be done is strictly looking at only peak and neglecting what a player did before and after.
 
diarm said:
I might be hurting myself with this but the OP rules do say "peak form".
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That's a tight rope, imo.

I have a player whose peak lasted a season or two. And the rest of the seasons, he was wank for his club. Compared to another player in the same position who consistently performed during a period of 5-6 seasons - not great, but above average. So in this case, the first player is getting a slight benefit of doubt unfairly compared to the latter.
 
Have read through the whole 30 pages and this sounds fun. Anyone want an AM who can help?
 
  1. Marty1968 - 1. Shearer 2. Terry 3. Yaya Toure 4. Bruce 5. Kanchelskis 6. Les Ferdinand 7. Barnes
  2. Skizzo - 1. Ronaldo 2. Campbell 3. Desailly 4. Gallas 5. Gilberto Silva 6. Kewell 7. Wright
  3. Cal? - 1. Henry 2. Torres 3. Hazard 4. Schneiderlin 5. Bryan Robson 6. Carragher 7. Sagna
  4. MJJ/Crappy - 1. Keane 2. Overmars 3. Ginola 4. Ince 5. Stuart Pearce 6. Fowler 7. Southgate
  5. Cutch - 1. Giggs 2. Essien 3. McManaman 4. G Neville 5. Barry 6. Des Walker 7. Hasselbaink
  6. The Stain - 1. Scholes 2. Lampard 3. Drogba 4. Ljungberg 5. A. Young 6. Baines 7. Carr
  7. berbasloth4 - 1. Vieira 2. Stam 3. RVN 4. King 5. Duff 6. Sheringham 7. Matic
  8. Kazi - 1. Suarez 2. McGrath 3. Vidic 4. Klinsmann 5. Waddle 6. Ballack 7. Azpilicueta
  9. Tuppet - 1. Ferdinand 2. Ashley Cole 3. Xabi Alonso 4. Petit 5. Mata 6. Andy Cole 7. Nani
  10. coolredwine - 1. Cantona 2. Irwin 3. Adams 4. Hyypia 5. Dennis Wise 6. Dixon 7. Gary Speed
  11. diarm - 1. Bale 2. Beckham 3. Van Persie 4. Pallister 5. Le Tissier 6. Batty 7. Colin Hendry
  12. Gio - 1. Gerrard 2. Makelele 3. Robben 4. Kompany 5. Petrescu 6. Tevez 7. Adebayor
  13. VivaJanuzaj - 1. Bergkamp 2. Modrić 3. Evra 4. Ivanović 5. Hargreaves 6. Owen 7. Joe Cole 8. de Jong
  14. Stobzilla - 1. Rooney 2. Pires 3. Carvalho 4. Beardsley 5. Radebe 6. Gullit 7. Butt 8. Riise
  15. bleezy - 1. Fabregas 2. Agüero 3. Sanchez 4. Mascherano 5. Kolo Toure 6. Le Saux 7. Johnsen 8. Schmeichel
  16. Šjor Bepo - 1. Zola 2. Carrick 3. David Silva 4. Zabaleta 5. McAllister 6. Keown 7. Winterburn 8. Lebouef
@Gio
 
See when we are picking our side and giving our tactics are we including what year our players peak is as well as the team??
 
crappycraperson said:
Has it ever really come up if Giggs should be rated more than Dinho? Other than perhaps in a particular set up, Dinho will always be rated higher.

Nani vs Robben in PL is not as straight forward IMO. Robben edges it but it may come down to personal criteria of 'peak' for every voter.
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I don't think the “peak” thing is a problem generally. You say “peak” and let people define it themselves – no issue with that at all.

Giggs versus Dinho isn't generally a problem in a draft context either – what you consider there is obviously how a peak version of the player would perform in a fantasy setting, in a certain set-up, surrounded by certain players, etc. Not really a conundrum as such that either. We can debate to what extent longevity – and the way in which a player adapts to getting older – should feature in a debate about who is the greatest player, all things considered, but that's very different from debating who would be best in a draft context.

What IS problematic, however, is ignoring or downplaying the actual restrictions stated in a particular draft. The only meaningful way – IMO – to distinguish between “PL Player” and “General Player” is to look at how said player performed over some time within the specified time frame, and then to extract some sort of “peak” from that. If a manager can argue – beyond this, or ignoring this – that the “PL Player” on his day is capable of doing just what the “General Player” is known for, then the restriction is pointless. We might as well – then – use the restriction factor only to limit the pool, not to impose any handicaps on the managers.
 
sorry to weigh into the peak debate.

For hindsight '"'"'"'"'"" on his day is as good as anyone however even when he had 6-7 great games on the bounce he followed it with a couple of mares.. at the end of the day its up to the managers to argue for and against that..

Giggs vs ronaldinho debarcle if your talking about giggsys creativity Nd vision etc you are taking away how good he was with his snake like hips etc as they were like two different players so you would have to kind of decide which giggs was better. Ronaldinho from the day he started to now never really changed his style of play so you can just point to his barca peak..

Maybe confusing to read but hope im kind of right lol.
 
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To give players with great longevity their due we could have a draft, of players born after 1970, where the players must have a minimum of 300 caps in the top flight of the Series A, La Liga, EPL and the Bundesliga. The cap and date could change but it would be a way recognising longevity
 
berbasloth4 said:
Someone said him earlier in draft and spoilt my first pick lol
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while we talking about him, few days ago just before i picked McAllister i watched Leeds - United from 95 and P*** was great fun, one minute he would look like Ruud Gullit in his prime and the minute after he would look like some random guy who plays because they dont have enough players, from brilliant to abysmal in matter of seconds :lol:
 
Šjor Bepo said:
while we talking about him, few days ago just before i picked McAllister i watched Leeds - United from 95 and P*** was great fun, one minute he would look like Ruud Gullit in his prime and the minute after he would look like some random guy who plays because they dont have enough players, from brilliant to abysmal in matter of seconds :lol:
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Always reminded me of bambi on ice
 
berbasloth4 said:
sorry to weigh into the peak debate.

For hindsight '"'"'"'"'"" on his day is as good as anyone however even when he had 6-7 great games on the bounce he followed it with a couple of mares.. at the end of the day its up to the managers to argue for and against that..

Giggs vs ronaldinho debarcle if your talking about giggsys creativity Nd vision etc you are taking away how good he was with his snake like hips etc as they were like two different players so you would have to kind of decide which giggs was better. Ronaldinho from the day he started to now never really changed his style of play so you can just point to his barca peak..

Maybe confusing to read but hope im kind of right lol.
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ಠ_ಠ
 
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