All Time Premier League Fantasy Draft - R1: VivaJanuzaj/ctp vs diarm

[antohan]

I'm just not sure how can you ignore his tactics? When you sprung out a surprise tactic in a past draft, the tactic factor should've played to your hands, but now that my opponent has bad tactics, you trust that they won't listen to him and do different things. It can't work both ways. A manager sends his players to the role X and they try to do it, if it doesn't suit them the whole idea won't work, but until the manager says differently thats the tactics they will play. Otherwise, what's the point of writing tactics and trying different things?

There's a key difference mate. It all revolves around what players can do, what they can't do, and what the opposition will do and how that impacts what the players will effectively end up doing. The first two is where tactical instructions and capability are relevant, the last two are exogenous factors beyond your control.

Of course a tactical surprise can work if you have the right players for it and the other team has ill-prepared itself for it and has the wrong players to deal with it. No two ways about that. You prepared for a game, faced another one, and you don't have the capabilities to deal with the new one, or need significant changes to deploy them (having possibly lost the game already in the first 15-20mins).

A HUGE tactical feckup which would be costly is saying you have a shit leftback facing a cracking right winger and saying he will be under pressure so Cristiano Ronaldo will have to track back and help him out. Yeah, good luck with that, it doesn't fly mate!

In this case @diarm had some delusion that he could exert some sort of control over the game, so he instructed players to do certain things according to this make-believe world and, if this make-believe world actually took place he would be in massive trouble. The problem is it won't, the problem is he won't have any real control over proceedings, you will. That in turn means that all this positioning of his midfield and what they will supposedly do won't happen, they will be under siege... and that's exactly the best way to leverage Sherwood, Batty and Beckham in midfield, forcibly squeezing the space between lines (particularly when his backline wasn't particularly suited for anything but deep-seated defending). The guys upfront will be passengers most of the time... and then Becks will get an outball, and every time he does that you will be in disarray, and he has the forwards to punish you, with the right delivery, while your players get frustrated by the stickiness of that defence and midfield.

It's quite bizarre, I know, I've never seen a manager come up with tactics so out of touch for the game at hand. What saves him is that all his players excelled at doing what will be required of them even if he isn't asking them to do it.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

There's a key difference mate. It all revolves around what players can do, what they can't do, and what the opposition will do and how that impacts what the players will effectively end up doing. The first two is where tactical instructions and capability are relevant, the last two are exogenous factors beyond your control.

Of course a tactical surprise can work if you have the right players for it and the other team has ill-prepared itself for it and has the wrong players to deal with it. No two ways about that. You prepared for a game, faced another one, and you don't have the capabilities to deal with the new one.

A HUGE tactical feckup which would be costly is saying you have a shit leftback facing a cracking right winger and saying he will be under pressure so Cristiano Ronaldo will have to track back and help him out. Yeah, good luck with that, it doesn't fly mate!

In this case @diarm had some delusion that he could exert some sort of control over the game, so he instructed players to do certain things according to this make-believe world and, if this make-believe world actually took place he would be in massive trouble. The problem is it won't, the problem is he won't have any real control over proceedings, you will. That in turn means that all this positioning of his midfield and what they will supposedly do won't happen, they will be under siege... and that's exactly the best way to leverage Sherwood, Batty and Beckham in midfield, forcibly squeezing the space between lines (particularly when his backline wasn't particularly suited for anything but deep-seated defending). The guys upfront will be passengers most of the time... and then Becks will get an outball, and every time he does that you will be in disarray, and he has the forwards to punish you, with the right delivery, while your players get frustrated by the stickiness of that defence and midfield.

It's quite bizarre, I know, I've never seen a manager come up with tactics so out of touch for the game at hand. What saves him is that all his players excelled at doing what will be required of them even if he isn't asking them to do it.

I don't know man, I get your rational, I really do, it still seems wrong for me to ignore it. I think that if I'd read a writeup that sent his players doing the wrong thing, I'd see this as a bad way to manage a match which would've led me to think he would lose the match than vote against him. Often I vote for the team who doesn't necessarily have the best players but the "righter" setup in the matchup between the two teams.
I even looked at diarm's combined XI and agreed with everything (besides the goalkeeper but that's not worth arguing about), but having the better players(which he does) won't guarantee victory, and here it will be the key factor.

Never mind, I really do understand the way you think and as a neutral I could've had the same problem.

 

[diarm]

There's a key difference mate. It all revolves around what players can do, what they can't do, and what the opposition will do and how that impacts what the players will effectively end up doing. The first two is where tactical instructions and capability are relevant, the last two are exogenous factors beyond your control.

Of course a tactical surprise can work if you have the right players for it and the other team has ill-prepared itself for it and has the wrong players to deal with it. No two ways about that. You prepared for a game, faced another one, and you don't have the capabilities to deal with the new one.

A HUGE tactical feckup which would be costly is saying you have a shit leftback facing a cracking right winger and saying he will be under pressure so Cristiano Ronaldo will have to track back and help him out. Yeah, good luck with that, it doesn't fly mate!

In this case @diarm had some delusion that he could exert some sort of control over the game, so he instructed players to do certain things according to this make-believe world and, if this make-believe world actually took place he would be in massive trouble. The problem is it won't, the problem is he won't have any real control over proceedings, you will. That in turn means that all this positioning of his midfield and what they will supposedly do won't happen, they will be under siege... and that's exactly the best way to leverage Sherwood, Batty and Beckham in midfield, forcibly squeezing the space between lines (particularly when his backline wasn't particularly suited for anything but deep-seated defending). The guys upfront will be passengers most of the time... and then Becks will get an outball, and every time he does that you will be in disarray, and he has the forwards to punish you, with the right delivery, while your players get frustrated by the stickiness of that defence and midfield.

It's quite bizarre, I know, I've never seen a manager come up with tactics so out of touch for the game at hand. What saves him is that all his players excelled at doing what will be required of them even if he isn't asking them to do it.

I think the tactics you've outlined would suit my team perfectly against a different side, but I just can't see a team with De Jong, Hargreaves, Joe Cole and Michael Owen dominating the ball and territory to the extent you are suggesting.

Bergkamp and Modric were excellent footballers but so too were Le Tissier and Beckham in relatively similar positions. The advantage I have is that Bale is a far better player than Joe Cole and Rob Jones has an exposed right flank to move into. I don't see why our side wouldn't be playing football too.

 

[ctp]

Even with all that, surely there have to be some repercussions if a manager gets his set-up so wrong and his players are prepared for a different sort of game.

And with regards to diarm's counterattacking threat, we have Ivanovic keeping a relatively defensive position specifically to defend against Bale in such situations, plus an athletic DM in de Jong who can get back in time, and Evra's not too bad at that either. I don't want to talk down his side's potential on the break, but I think we have prepared well and are equipped to deal with it.

 

[diarm]

"Repercussions if a manager gets his set up so wrong"???

Let's not lose sight of my lineup here:

I have Batty in a defensive midfield role, not far from the depth De Jong occupies for Team Viva. Beckham is in a withdrawn, more central position - creating for all intents and purposes, a midfield 3.

As good as Bergkamp and Modric are, I have footballers as well in Beckham and Le Tissier.

How about the repercussions for sending your Left Back up the field to close Beckham and leaving the entire flank free for my right back to exploit? Or for stating that Ivanovic would be used with De Jong to "shield" your weaker centre backs while he is supposed to be focusing on one of the fastest and most destructive left wingers the league has ever seen.

 

[dannymc1309]

I see Bale and Becks being a key route to goal here with a fast and varied transition from defence to attack, whether that be via Bales pace, the accuracy of Beckham or even the craft and longshots of Le Tissier. As good as Dennis was, Hargreaves and DeJong look outclassed in the middle.

 

[antohan]

Even with all that, surely there have to be some repercussions if a manager gets his set-up so wrong and his players are prepared for a different sort of game.

And with regards to diarm's counterattacking threat, we have Ivanovic keeping a relatively defensive position specifically to defend against Bale in such situations, plus an athletic DM in de Jong who can get back in time, and Evra's not too bad at that either. I don't want to talk down his side's potential on the break, but I think we have prepared well and are equipped to deal with it.

If the ref is half decent De Jong will be off by half time and after that it will be Beckham resisting the attentions of Evra and taking him out with a beautiful pass for Le Tissier, RvP and Bale to run at Bould, Jagielka and Ivanovic. Not a pretty sight if you are cheering for the latter.

 

[Moby]

Viva's front two is fantastic, and I am a real big fan of Dennis, who I can see having a good game here and certainly getting or creating a goal, however I can see the other team working really well as well and having enough to get one more goal here. I know this all about the peak, but Hargreaves stands out a bit in that midfield company. On the other end, Le Tissier and RvP is a fantastic front two as well, and they both have the ability to score absolute spectacular goals, which is handy. That front four is very delicious and works quite well with the platform provided by the two hard workers in the middle. Bale and Van Persie at the end of Beckham's crosses is very ominous, specially Van persie whose intelligence and movement inside the box is deadly, and his control and finish, having an all round striker such as himself is quite valuable in this game. I'd also go on to say that I rate diarm's CB pair slightly higher. Bould was an excellent deputy for Adams yes but that defense's strength was in them defending as a unit, those two along with Winterburn and Dixon formed a watertight unit. Hendry was pivotal for that Blackburn side under Kenny and he's next to Pallister, again a key member of our resurgence under Fergie during that time, and one whose ability was very highly rated, and he's the best CB in this game without a doubt. Very close again, and I hate voting against Bergkamp specially in this draft where he's at home but I have to go for diarm. Last but not the least, set pieces in a close game, and that is all Beckham over here, with decent targets from corners and free kicks.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

In this case @diarm had some delusion that he could exert some sort of control over the game, so he instructed players to do certain things according to this make-believe world and, if this make-believe world actually took place he would be in massive trouble. The problem is it won't, the problem is he won't have any real control over proceedings, you will. That in turn means that all this positioning of his midfield and what they will supposedly do won't happen, they will be under siege... and that's exactly the best way to leverage Sherwood, Batty and Beckham in midfield, forcibly squeezing the space between lines (particularly when his backline wasn't particularly suited for anything but deep-seated defending). The guys upfront will be passengers most of the time... and then Becks will get an outball, and every time he does that you will be in disarray, and he has the forwards to punish you, with the right delivery, while your players get frustrated by the stickiness of that defence and midfield.

It's quite bizarre, I know, I've never seen a manager come up with tactics so out of touch for the game at hand. What saves him is that all his players excelled at doing what will be required of them even if he isn't asking them to do it.

I've read back through the thread and I don't really see this in Diarm's tactics. He could have been clearer in terms of where he was positioning his defensive line, and he's over-optimistic if he expects Modric and Bergkamp to relinquish possession constantly in the face of pressure, but his basic ideas seem quite sound - Batty and Sherwood positioned deep, Beckham staying deep and tucking in a bit to provide support, no high pressing but instead intense pressure when the ball reaches the midfield instead. When possession is regained, hit the creative players as quickly as possible,

In the Middle:


With both Batty and Sherwood having great engines and no small amount of bite in the tackle, a key focus of this side will be the intense pressure placed on opponents in the middle third of the pitch.

While both midfielders are well capable of efficient, accurate and intelligent ball passing, neither can be called midfield magicians. When possession is won back, both will use the ball quickly in order to bring the more creative members of the side into play.

Beckham will be utilised in a more withdrawn, right sided midfielder role. He will provide a more cultured touch in the middle of the park and use his extraordinary long range passing ability to allow both Bale on the wide left, and Van Persie on the shoulder of the centre backs, to exploit space behind the defence. When appropriate, Beckham will stay wider and receive the ball in areas where he can deliver crosses or set Jones free on the overlap......

When not in possession, the team will work hard to win the ball back quickly and in the middle third of the pitch. Fast fullbacks and tenacious midfielders will put heavy pressure on opposing play makers and look to disrupt attacks before they begin.

Its quite clear from my formation that Batty is occupying a deeper, defensive midfield role. Exactly the are that Bergkmap will need to occupy to give this team the creativity it so desperately needs.

Viva has done an excellent job of painting this as some sort of Bergkamp vs Henry exhibition but that simply won't be the case. Bergkamp will have Batty to contend with first and foremost and then Henry after that.

 

[Gio]

I really like VJ's front four. There's loads of synergy there and pairing Bergkamp with Owen should get the best out of both. There's at least a goal there, possibly two with Cole likely to get the better of Bjornebye. The problem is the central four behind them, none of whom are particularly compelling, and as a defensive unit it looks leaky in this company (given RVP's previous against Jagielka). For Diarm it's quite clear how that set-up would work in a game like this and it's the counter with Bale and Jones at full pace on the flanks that looks decisive. Notwitstanding the fact he was a top centre-half, I feel Pallister is getting slightly over-rated here and will have his hands full dealing with Owen. If Bergkamp gets turned that's going to be messy.

 

[diarm]

I really like VJ's front four. There's loads of synergy there and pairing Bergkamp with Owen should get the best out of both. There's at least a goal there, possibly two with Cole likely to get the better of Bjornebye. The problem is the central four behind them, none of whom are particularly compelling, and as a defensive unit it looks leaky in this company (given RVP's previous against Jagielka). For Diarm it's quite clear how that set-up would work in a game like this and it's the counter with Bale and Jones at full pace on the flanks that looks decisive. Notwitstanding the fact he was a top centre-half, I feel Pallister is getting slightly over-rated here and will have his hands full dealing with Owen. If Bergkamp gets turned that's going to be messy.

Pally will certainly have his hands full with Owen and we will all have our hands full with Bergkamp. I'd back Team Viva to score at least once over the 90 minutes.
I just feel there is more goals in my side. Beckham, Bale, Van Persie and Le Tissier all have the ability to create and score against Viva's defence.

 

[diarm]

Bloody hell. Hung on for dear life but there was some squeaky bum time there at the end!

@VivaJanuzaj well done mate. That was a great game and really tough to win. Arguing against Bergkamp who is one of my favourite ever players was a nightmare.

 

[sajeev]

Well for once the better team one, despite the names and it should have been clearer.

Not enough time was spent discussing how @diarm's team would attack and punch holes in Viva's team

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Great game @diarm congrats.

Hard luck @VivaJanuzaj @ctp You pushed the edge here. Brilliant!

 

[antohan]

I've read back through the thread and I don't really see this in Diarm's tactics. He could have been clearer in terms of where he was positioning his defensive line, and he's over-optimistic if he expects Modric and Bergkamp to relinquish possession constantly in the face of pressure, but his basic ideas seem quite sound - Batty and Sherwood positioned deep, Beckham staying deep and tucking in a bit to provide support, no high pressing but instead intense pressure when the ball reaches the midfield instead. When possession is regained, hit the creative players as quickly as possible,

It got much better once he posted his formation again and stressed the three midfielders were deeper. His emphasis on the middle third and the fullbacks putting pressure in the middle third betrayed an expectation/illusion of a game which wasn't going to play out that way.

But yes, the main issue was ambiguity over lines (as you mention) and, in that context, a rather confused stance on how Bergkamp was being dealt with. Hendry "coming out of defence to pick up Bergkamp" is right up there with some of the most ridiculous things we've seen in drafts, a clear recipe for disaster.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

It got much better once he posted his formation again and stressed the three midfielders were deeper. His emphasis on the middle third and the fullbacks putting pressure in the middle third betrayed an expectation/illusion of a game which wasn't going to play out that way.

But yes, the main issue was ambiguity over lines (as you mention) and, in that context, a rather confused stance on how Bergkamp was being dealt with. Hendry "coming out of defence to pick up Bergkamp" is right up there with some of the most ridiculous things we've seen in drafts, a clear recipe for disaster.

No arguments there

 

[diarm]

It got much better once he posted his formation again and stressed the three midfielders were deeper. His emphasis on the middle third and the fullbacks putting pressure in the middle third betrayed an expectation/illusion of a game which wasn't going to play out that way.

But yes, the main issue was ambiguity over lines (as you mention) and, in that context, a rather confused stance on how Bergkamp was being dealt with. Hendry "coming out of defence to pick up Bergkamp" is right up there with some of the most ridiculous things we've seen in drafts, a clear recipe for disaster.

No arguments there

This was the most frustrating thing about this match. Please find where I even alluded to "Hendry coming out of the defence to pick up Bergkamp". In fact I explicitly said Hendry was the stopper and the last line of defence in my tactical outline.

My formation never changed. The graphic I posted was the same one I began with and I repeated that Batty would be focused on Bergkamp a number of times throughout the thread. It felt like everyone was listening to what my opponent said my tactics were rather than what I said!

 

[Pat_Mustard]

This was the most frustrating thing about this match. Please find where I even alluded to "Hendry coming out of the defence to pick up Bergkamp". In fact I explicitly said Hendry was the stopper and the last line of defence in my tactical outline.

My formation never changed. The graphic I posted was the same one I began with and I repeated that Batty would be focused on Bergkamp a number of times throughout the thread. It felt like everyone was listening to what my opponent said my tactics were rather than what I said!

Aye, to be fair I didn't recall reading that from you and was too lazy to read the whole thread again. It is massively frustrating when other people invent shit about your tactics that you hadn't written so apologies!

EDIT: I did try to defend against what I felt were misrepresentations of your tactics though!

 

[diarm]

Aye, to be fair I didn't recall reading that from you and was too lazy to read the whole thread again. It is massively frustrating when other people invent shit about your tactics that you hadn't written so apologies!

EDIT: I did try to defend against what I felt were misrepresentations of your tactics though!

I saw that and was very grateful because at that stage I was beginning to doubt myself and looking back through the thread to see if I'd said something stupid!!!

 

[antohan]

This was the most frustrating thing about this match. Please find where I even alluded to "Hendry coming out of the defence to pick up Bergkamp". In fact I explicitly said Hendry was the stopper and the last line of defence in my tactical outline.

My formation never changed. The graphic I posted was the same one I began with and I repeated that Batty would be focused on Bergkamp a number of times throughout the thread. It felt like everyone was listening to what my opponent said my tactics were rather than what I said!

Often happens when you have both managers yapping at each other and making up how each other are playing. I only scanned through it all and noticed the constant references to Batty on Bergkamp, Hendry on Bergkamp, Hendry's good record vs. Bergkamp, how him dropping deep would drag Hendry... Fact is only the third one was you (which didn't help because that was one fo the few posts I read as most of them were about smoke and mirror accusations).

My bad, I somehow got that idea but you are right that it's not a fair reflection of your tactics/posts. I still voted for you, and you won on account of that vote, so stop complaining

BTW, @VivaJanuzaj, didn't want to say this midgame as it would be a bit harsh. I usually really like your sides and we seem to like similar players, which raises expectations... This was by far the most underwhelming team you've put together. I loved Modric-Bergkamp-Owen, but the rest was quite meh.

 

[diarm]

My bad, I somehow got that idea but you are right that it's not a fair reflection of your tactics/posts. I still voted for you, and you won on account of that vote, so stop complaining

Fair enough!

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

This was by far the most underwhelming team you've put together

Agreed. I think the main problem is I rate Modric higher than most and went for Hargreaves way too early. rest was OK I guess but nothing more.

good luck @diarm.

 

[antohan]

Agreed. I think the main problem is I rate Modric higher than most and went for Hargreaves way too early. rest was OK I guess but nothing more.

good luck @diarm.

I rated Hargo more than most tbh, but you certainly could have picked him up later. Timing has rarely been as important as in this draft. People were picking the likes of Di Canio and Herrera at the end while you had picked De Jong four turns earlier.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

I rated Hargo more than most tbh, but you certainly could have picked him up later. Timing has rarely been as important as in this draft. People were picking the likes of Di Canio and Herrera at the end while you had picked De Jong four turns earlier.

Yeah, some bad decisions. Still thought the draw was favourable for the team, not enough I guess. Still not sure how I would've went in reinforcements with many positions need upgrading. A CB was probably a must than a replacement for De Jong I guess, maybe upgrade Hargreaves.