Jones was excellent before injury curtailed him. I don't really rate Bjornebye, but Jones is one of the better full-backs in the draft.
All Time Premier League Fantasy Draft - R1: VivaJanuzaj/ctp vs diarm
- Thread starter Moby
- Start date
He did well enough keeping a clean sheet when Holland and Scotland met at Euro '96. Although in fairness that was a bit hairy at times.And I'm sure Hendry can comfortably stop this on his own
Doesn't matter. First of all Euro's don't count, but I don't really know the details, however I doubt he's task was to single-handedly contain Bergkamp, which is his task today apparently.
By the way, Owen vs Pallister - met twice, Owen scored once. Looks pretty promising to me.
Hendry won't be on his own. Batty will be focused on Bergkamp with Hendry the last line of defence.
I also said there was a lot of bluffing going on and then clarified what I meant about that bluffing. If that is too much for you then stop bluffing.
As for Bergkamp being no Drogba, it was quite obvious from context that I was speaking about his aerial ability to exploit the opportunities you say Joe Cole is going to create all by himself on the flanks.
My fullbacks are equally as good as yours attacking the flanks and while yours are better defensively, I have much better centre backs and you lack the wide players, or big men in the box to punish me from wide areas.
I also said there was a lot of bluffing going on and then clarified what I meant about that bluffing. If that is too much for you then stop bluffing.
As for Bergkamp being no Drogba, it was quite obvious from context that I was speaking about his aerial ability to exploit the opportunities you say Joe Cole is going to create all by himself on the flanks.
My fullbacks are equally as good as yours attacking the flanks and while yours are better defensively, I have much better centre backs and you lack the wide players, or big men in the box to punish me from wide areas.
Jones will mostly face Evra/Modric and drifting Cole/Bergkamp, however Bjorenbye will have his plate full with Cole cutting in from the right or challenging him on the flank. Cole against Bjorenbye actually has more chance of yielding chances than Bale vs Ivnaovic if you ask me, and before diarm starts calling me a "bluffer" or what not, Bjorenbye was a starting LB at a declining Liverpool team with no finish above 3 and only one League cup title and thats it. Ivanovic is one of the best RBs in the PL in recent years, constant top performer for Chelsea, big matches man, and yes, NEVER conceded an assist/goal by Bale when they faced each other, at both their PL primes.
That has to count.
Owen met Pallister twice, both times when Owen was at his peak and Pally was coming to the end of his career and Owen only scored once?
RVP played Jagielka 3 times. Both players were established and Van Persie scored 3 times.
RVP played Jagielka 3 times. Both players were established and Van Persie scored 3 times.
Pretty sure Hendry was on a man-marking job on Denis as he was the only central striker until Kluivert came on. Agree on Owen - Pallister will have his hands full.
Never said one single untrue thing. If you can't win without talking thrash I'll just stop replying to you because my days of fighting in these draft threads are behind me, I'm here to discuss not make childish accusations.
Batty will be focused on Bergkamp? Super. So Modric is free to do as he pleases. I'm sure Sherwood won't be able to stop Modric. Or do you now suppose he does?
Owen's movement in the box is better than Drogba's, and it will cover for his lack of aerial presence. With Bergkamp-Owen on the side I won't be playing aerially, so that's just a worthless argument. Cole can easily pass through balls who aren't on the air.
Your fullbacks are equally as good as mine? Hilarious. You see? this is the difference between us, when I lose a battle I admit it, like admitting your CBs are better, or your wide players are better, but you just seem to either ignore the truth, or just ignore the fact that football isn't a winger vs winger match, but more of a setup vs setup match.
I'll take my chances with this "gamble" I'd like to have Bergkamp against Hendry matchup in every match I play. Potentially goals galore if you ask me with Cole and Owen against one players as well.
I wouldn't call it the prime of Owen, he scored more in 2001-02 and 2002-03. Now whose bluffing?
Plus, you have Arsenal's van Persie, it's really not Jagielka's prime which is after vP moved to United.
Not sure if draft matchup or poker. 
I know! what does bluffing have anything to do with it? I'm not sure if diarm is just trying to annoy me or I'm not understanding what he's meaning by bluffing..Not sure if draft matchup or poker.
Can you stop using the parts of my quotes that suit your argument and ignoring the remainder of my sentences.
I said that my fullbacks are equally as good attacking the flanks. I also said yours were better defensively. If you're suggesting that Jones and Bjørnebye weren't good going forwards then you're wrong.
This assumption along with your complete lack of respect for Tim Sherwood's ability makes me question your knowledge of the earlier PL years.
I'll question your knowledge in early PL years for leaving Hendry and Pallister vulnerable against a deadly pair like Bergkamp and Owen.
Go ahead and send your forwards venturing, Modric will follow Jones, while Cole will follow Bjorenbye and take advantage of the hole. moreover, If your full backs move forward there's even more space for Bergkamp to exploit on his free role, and more space to pull Hendry from.
What you seem to don't understand that if Hendry goes forward to Bergkamp, it completely demolishes your defensive line and leave a bunch of space for Owen to exploit. With the passers I have, and with young Owen's movement and finishing, its a self-destructive tactic.
I don't underestimate Sherwood either, I'm just not sure what role he has in a match where you kind of surpass your midfield, and play mostly from the flanks, while he won't have too much defensive influence either.
There. I answered your entire quote. Happy? I hope you are after conveniently ignoring some of mine because you can't counter it.
If you think roughing up bergkamp might stop him theres no chance because bergkamp could give as good as he got.. I like hendry but I would fancy bergkamp to make him look very average
And with Bergkamp left one on and one against him, while Owen is one on one against Palli, it's an easy route to goals
Regardless of Batty or Hendry, either of them 1-on-1 against Bergkamp is not going to stop him in full 90 minutes. Bergkamp is that great
Then you have Modric in midfield dictating the play and thrives even under pressure, and a fast and lethal Owen upfront to contend with
Then you have Modric in midfield dictating the play and thrives even under pressure, and a fast and lethal Owen upfront to contend with
Be careful, you might get called bluffers.
This is exactly what I'm trying to say throughout the whole thing, it's just too much of a risk for diarm depending on Bale/La Tissier/RvP to outscore it with that offensive lineup.
Any discussion of Bergkamp having a hard time beating Hendry is misplaced. I really rate Hendry, but he was rather agricultural and not really the best man for a job on Bergkamp. That Bergkamp-Owen duo is sweet and could well win this for @VivaJanuzaj.
Unfortunately, I don't rate the rest of his setup all that much, bar Modric. It's functional, but the only way I see this playing out is with @diarm sitting back, with both Sherwood and Batty doing a brilliant job at protecting the defence and squeezing the space available for Modric/Bergkamp/Cole/Owen. His forwards don't defend from the front so that's how it will pan out...
Now, with things laid out that way, I don't see Viva scoring more than once, twice at best, while I can see diarm bagging a couple on the break or from set pieces when the counters are stopped via tactical fouls. 1 maybe two vs. most likely two, the latter wins.
Unfortunately, I don't rate the rest of his setup all that much, bar Modric. It's functional, but the only way I see this playing out is with @diarm sitting back, with both Sherwood and Batty doing a brilliant job at protecting the defence and squeezing the space available for Modric/Bergkamp/Cole/Owen. His forwards don't defend from the front so that's how it will pan out...
Now, with things laid out that way, I don't see Viva scoring more than once, twice at best, while I can see diarm bagging a couple on the break or from set pieces when the counters are stopped via tactical fouls. 1 maybe two vs. most likely two, the latter wins.
But that's not the tactic diarm is using. Sure, it could have some good things in it, but Sherwood and Batty are hardly protecting the defense according to diarm's tactics and arguments, so I don't see how this could be the deciding factor of the match. The way he did set-up his team, he's giving all the space in the world for Bergkamp. He said so himself, plenty of times, Hendry will come out to defend against Bergkamp. Not Batty, not Sherwood, Hendry. Unless Batty takes his CB role so Hendry can man mark Bergkamp(which is not that smart either), you've got one CB coming out to defend against Bergkamp, while the other needs to worry about Owen's movements and keep an eye if Bergkamp beats the first one. Batty in the meanwhile is running after Modric who is playing in a role he would thrive in and is the best CM on the pitch, while Sherwood, who is venturing forward according to diarm needs to help against Hargreaves when he goes on the attack, despite his more defensive role.
Think modric is being asked to do a lot here, providing width on the left side as well as trying to dictate play in the middle.
Evra has a good ability in providing width, especially when the midfielder is required to defend against isn't going to catch him in the final third and is more of a midfielder than a winger. Bergkamp loved drifting wide as well, but again, creating left width isn't what he's required to do, he'll drift left to create even more gaps against a defense that has tons of gaps in it which are created by the movement between Owen and Bergkamp
Its quite clear from my formation that Batty is occupying a deeper, defensive midfield role. Exactly the are that Bergkmap will need to occupy to give this team the creativity it so desperately needs.
Viva has done an excellent job of painting this as some sort of Bergkamp vs Henry exhibition but that simply won't be the case. Bergkamp will have Batty to contend with first and foremost and then Henry after that.
Evra and Cole will definitely provide width, but Vivas strikers are not the sort who thrive on delivery from out wide, especially not against Henry and Pallister who are bigger and badder.
I don't doubt that Bergkamp will be effective in this game, but I don't for a second think he will be more effective against 2 good centre backs and two very effective defensive midfielder than Bale, Beckham, Le Tissier and Van Persie will be against two much weaker centre backs
Viva has done an excellent job of painting this as some sort of Bergkamp vs Henry exhibition but that simply won't be the case. Bergkamp will have Batty to contend with first and foremost and then Henry after that.
Evra and Cole will definitely provide width, but Vivas strikers are not the sort who thrive on delivery from out wide, especially not against Henry and Pallister who are bigger and badder.
I don't doubt that Bergkamp will be effective in this game, but I don't for a second think he will be more effective against 2 good centre backs and two very effective defensive midfielder than Bale, Beckham, Le Tissier and Van Persie will be against two much weaker centre backs
So again you go back to this version, but in this version, whose defending against Modric? No one!
Owen can find his way to a through ball from wide positions, having players go wide doesn't necessarily mean a cross. A lot of Owen goals came from through balls by fullbacks/wingers between the CB and full back, where obviously he'll have plenty of room the way you set up
Errrr... he is bluffing?
One thing is what you set out to do, a very different one is what ends up happening. What will end up happening is what I described, simply because that's how the balance of power and control works between the two sides. Your side will have more of the ball, his is better suited to counter, so that's what will happen, inevitably.If there was even a minimal chance that he can exert some control over proceedings I would worry massively about Hendry's wild-goose chase. It just won't happen, so he won't be punished for it I'm afraid.
Errrr... he is bluffing?
You said so yourself, tactical mistakes by managers should count. He set up his team in the wrong way, sending his players to do roles their not supposed to do, you can't just ignore that.
I have Sherwood and Beckham in his more withdrawn role to contend with Modric who you seem to claim is going to dominate the midfield in defence, provide a wide attacking outlet and be the creator in chief from the middle.
I really think you need to be more concerned with how to deal with Bale, Beckham and Le Tiss than I do with just Modric and Bergkamp. Especially when I have the better defence and the striker with a better scoring record.
Especoally against Phil Jagielka who is undoubtedly the weakest link on this pitch.
I was sure I would vote for Diarm here after scanning through both teams in the draft thread, I am a huge fan of Beckham and this is a good setup for him with Bale and RVP to aim for. But I think that Bergkamp will see too much of the ball against a 4-4-2 which usually plays very open and box to box.
If there was an option for a draw I would go with that, but as it stands I think Bergkamp would have a world class performance here to edge the win. I don't rate Modric nearly as highly as VJ so I think that Diarm has the better players, but VJ would take it due to the fact that Bergkamp would be on the ball nonstop against a more open defense.
I usually don't love teams with Bergkamp but here I think it looks very tasty.
If there was an option for a draw I would go with that, but as it stands I think Bergkamp would have a world class performance here to edge the win. I don't rate Modric nearly as highly as VJ so I think that Diarm has the better players, but VJ would take it due to the fact that Bergkamp would be on the ball nonstop against a more open defense.
I usually don't love teams with Bergkamp but here I think it looks very tasty.
Modric was pretty awesome in that Spurs team tbh, took plenty of midfields to the cleaners.
Check the vid in the first page of Modric kicking the spanish NT's ass
Absolutely. But it was VJ's second pick and I think that was a tad bit too early for him in my eyes considering the depth of the quality in midfield for the draft!
It's a classic!
Yep, and it shows his skills against top pressuring midfields, that's why Sherwood/Batty won't be enough to stop him from controlling the game and find through balls. Modric was one of the best passers the PL has seen, no less than that. I'm on my phone so I can't post videos but look up some passing videos of him and add his ability to beat his marker when under pressure and you get a deadly player without proper closing, with two deadly forwards just waiting to collect his passing.
Modric is actually the one that kept me in two minds. As said, diarm's players will naturally do what the game requires and they are best suited to do. Whatever his instructions, which are complete dogshit, the gameflow will make them redundant and force onto his players a game they are actually better suited to play.
So I don't see the sort of space Owen and Bergkamp would revel in. Modric can find it for them, no doubt, and that's the entire reason I think he could possibly score two. Take Modric away and replace him with some other midfielder and it's a clear as day 2-1/3-1 to diarm.
So I don't see the sort of space Owen and Bergkamp would revel in. Modric can find it for them, no doubt, and that's the entire reason I think he could possibly score two. Take Modric away and replace him with some other midfielder and it's a clear as day 2-1/3-1 to diarm.
I'm just not sure how can you ignore his tactics? When you sprung out a surprise tactic in a past draft, the tactic factor should've played to your hands, but now that my opponent has bad tactics, you trust that they won't listen to him and do different things. It can't work both ways. A manager sends his players to the role X and they try to do it, if it doesn't suit them the whole idea won't work, but until the manager says differently thats the tactics they will play. Otherwise, what's the point of writing tactics and trying different things?
Viva has really sold Bergkamp well in this match and clearly I will learn from the experience of coming up against someone so good at manipulating the discussion as he.
But the facts show that Bergkamp faced Hendry 5 times in his Premier League career. He scored once and registered 0 assists. Blackburn lined up with a 442 formation on each occasion while Arsenal had much stronger options than Hargreaves, Joe Cole and Michael Owen alongside him.
I'm a huge fan of Bergkamp and he's by far the biggest threat to my side, but a centre back pairing of Hendry and Pallister, protected by the tenacity and industry of Sherwood and Batty deeper midfield roles is simply not a side the Dutchman would relish facing.
Owen faced Pallister twice and Hendry twice while playing in the league for Liverpool. He scored 2 goals in 4 games which is not to be sniffed at but nothing compared to the 3 in 3 Van Persie registered against Jagielka doing this:
Viva has repeatedly said that his side has the better forwards but again, that doesn't quite add up.
Neither Bergkamp nor Owen ever scored 20 goals in a single season, Owen reaching 19 goals in his best year with Bergkamp hitting 16. In comparison, both Le Tissier and Van Persie hit 20+ with Le God scoring 25 in his most prolific season while RVP is member of the select group to reach 30 in a single year.
Of course, stats aren't everything but my opponent has been quick to point to Ivanovic's strong record against the almost forgotten Gareth Bale. I should also point out that in claiming that "Ivanovic > Hendry" and pointing out how good a shield he will give their defence, Viva is indicating that the Serb will have a lot more responsibility than just containing Bale. I'll let others decide if Bale will be as quiet when Ivanovic isn't 100% focused on him and him alone.
Great post mate.
I'm done mate. I won't have you calling me a liar in various "nicer" ways.
Good luck.
Another point to focus on is the tactic of advancing Evra to counteract the ball playing of Beckham. A good tactic but one that will leave the right hand flank open to Rob Jones who is a quick Right Back with an excellent delivery. Of course, you could rely on Jagielka and Bould to deal with every uncontested delivery Jones swings in but I'd bet good money on Van Persie or Bale getting to a few balls first.
I also wonder how far Evra will be willing to track Beckham through the midfield and how Viva intends to keep his defensive shape as he does so. Anyone who remembers Beckham at his peak, knows he was not one to hug the touchline and was regularly involved in the middle of the park and the edge of the area.
With the movement of Van Persie and link up play with Le Tissier, Evra is going to be a very busy boy.
I don't want anyone to think I am underestimating the talents of great players like Bergkamp, Ivanovic, Owen and Modric because I'm not. I just think my team has more players of quality and fewer weaknesses. I would pick a combined line up of:
Seaman
Ivanovic Hendry Pallister Evra
Beckham Batty Modric Bale
Bergkamp
Van Persie
I also believe that the team with better centre backs, better defensive midfielders, better wingers and more prolific attackers will beat a side with one fantastic second striker.
Especially when the first side has a second striker of their own who isn't too far behind!
I also wonder how far Evra will be willing to track Beckham through the midfield and how Viva intends to keep his defensive shape as he does so. Anyone who remembers Beckham at his peak, knows he was not one to hug the touchline and was regularly involved in the middle of the park and the edge of the area.
With the movement of Van Persie and link up play with Le Tissier, Evra is going to be a very busy boy.
I don't want anyone to think I am underestimating the talents of great players like Bergkamp, Ivanovic, Owen and Modric because I'm not. I just think my team has more players of quality and fewer weaknesses. I would pick a combined line up of:
Seaman
Ivanovic Hendry Pallister Evra
Beckham Batty Modric Bale
Bergkamp
Van Persie
Especially when the first side has a second striker of their own who isn't too far behind!
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Not my intention at all. I just feel the conversation has very carefully avoided some clear weaknesses of yours and trivialised some clear strengths of mine.
I'm not accusing or upset about it at all. I respect that we're all trying to win here.
Manipulating, bluffing, questioning my knowledge.. Not the best to avoid accusations. Anyway, I feel I've said everything there I have to say, we'll have to agree to disagree here. Sadly, not many posts by other managers like it had in the Skizzo vs Tuppet match, so nothing new to say. I believe you that you haven't tried to talk shit, but you did. Just for future reference, as I sinned in that problem as well in the past, it's just not the way to play these matches.
Anyway, good luck, you've done a good job selling your team.
Anyway, good luck, you've done a good job selling your team.