Yeah I'm quite relaxed about Kevin Phillips peak here: it's a non-issue. But Kompany and Robben had more than just one great/good season. Kompany has been in the PFA Team of the Year three times. Robben started brilliantly, cooled a little but was still very good for his first two seasons at Stamford Bridge. He wasn't much to write home about in his third campaign, granted.
All Time Premier League Fantasy Draft: R1 - Gio vs Sjor Bepo
- Thread starter green_smiley
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No one is questioning what Gerrard can do and is being asked to do. The post you initially quoted was in response to antohan's exaggerated post.
The question is, who is doing what Slippy cannot. What was the reason Alonso was so important to Liverpool and following his sale they crashed from an almost title win to a 7th place?
I voted Gio. But really are a few players there who could do with an upg!
Hardly. It comes across like you're scrabbling around for sticks to bat Gerrard with. 2-man midfields? Check. Big games rather than PL games? Check. Hollywood balls? Check. All entirely irrelevant.
So you are disregarding Alonso's importance, the job he performed, why it was important in bringing out Gerrard's best, and that missing here?
We'll just have to disagree on this.
I watched all these players and definitely would go for Sjor Bepo, quality wise and tactically wise, especially as hi midfield is more intelligent, his right side would destroy Gio's left, and his strikeforce is also better.
Gio got the better GK, but that's it actually.
Gio got the better GK, but that's it actually.
Petrescu's assists will be crosses from overlaps not starting counters.
I'll take your word on Wright but Kompany well let's say I'm unconvinced at best.
My main point is you are primarily a counter attacking unit (embrace it) and without Veron you are pretty toothless starting quick transitions which is going to put even more burden on Robben to create against a very solid back 4 shielded by Carrick and Mac.
You said we'd have to agree to disagree on Veron some time ago
. Why do you think Veron is in the team? Even a Veron-lite makes this midfield work, moves the ball around well enough to gel that midfield and join it with that attack.
How many times did Veron play in a MF 3 in premiership? He played at times on the right when beckham was out injured, then in midfield when Scholes played as number 10 behind Ruud. I remember very few games where he started in a MF 3.. may be I am mistaken? Or did he play in MF 3 often for Chelsea?
Yeah, which is my point. He's got way more responsibility than spraying a few passes around.
He's assigned to United, ain't he? So the latter point would be moot regardless.
Anyway, I don't think there's anything wrong with your memory. In the league we mainly played a game in which he was relatively unprotected – and he usually looked quite out of place.
There were flashes, but there's a reason he flopped – and him not being able to thrive in that unprotected role would be it.
He did feature in a different role for United too– and did much better. But that did not happen very often in the league – it's beyond debate, really. And the league is what counts here – his league performances for United. Nothing else should be considered as per the rules – and therein lies the problem here.
That's a very...interesting point of view.
Yeah.. in europe... Fergie went with 3 in midfield, where as in the league it was very rare at that point of time. Hence why Veron shined more in Europe for us.
Veron did play in 3 man midfields in the league for us at times, and some fairly weird ones too:
from http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/2196586.stm
This is closer to how I remember his performance level for us in the league. Flashes of quality but largely anonymous:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/2245927.stm
My point is, while he didn't have that many top drawer EPL performances, his average game wasn't particularly poor either. People are talking about "Verón the flop" and that had a lot more to do with the fee, expectations and circumstances than it actually has to do with what he actually did on the pitch. What he did on the pitch will be good enough here. He sure needs upgrading to a Scholes or Xabi, clearly, but what he is being asked to do he will do just fine.
So, let me get this straight, he is a misfit not because he didn't play well without anyone protecting the defence behind him (something he has here). He is not deployed properly because he didn't pplay in a midfield three?
I'll take you up on that, every player I see used in a tactical setup he didn't play in I'll mark down as a nought from now on. It will be fun, I wonder if some games will end up being five-a-sides.
That's where we disagree.
Forget the passing, forget the fact that he's the only one capable of controlling the game in any sort of way while up against four fantastic technically gifted players, or whatever. The defensive side of the game, where he has David Silva cutting in, with his long time buddy Zabaleta overlapping and having to help out Vertonghen - who I actually rate a lot in terms of ability but like Hugo, he's been a victim of mental Spurs managers who don't have a clue about organizing a defense - with all of that? Of course it needs upgrading. And all this is assuming he has a good day in the park, which he did only a few times in the league, and isn't a complete passenger which leaves an already overworking midfield out of it's depth. Gion are sorta lucky that one of the two men supposed to make use of all this dominance and creativity is Danny fkin Welbeck, what a waste that is.
In competition specific drafts, that becomes rather important. In all time ones or any draft where the entire career is being evaluated, you can be as creative as you like, but this is a competition specific draft, where performances trump ability quite clearly when evaluating. We've been through the same in the WC and the Euro drafts. Lahm, had he been played in midfield in a game would not have been a problem, but he didn't, so you simply cannot play him there and argue had the manager done that it would have worked, etc. It is the same here, we can only look at what he did, and so a player being asked to do something which he didn't regularly, is a problem. Doesn't matter how much it makes sense to do it.
He has Makelele behind him and Verthongen is well covered by Kompany. As far as I'm concerned Verón's details is actually Carrick. Now, Verón's main issue with the EPL was its pace and how he got no time and space on the ball. Carrick is probably the best midfielder he can come up against. He is a great player but his characteristics aren't exactly Verón's kryptonite whichever of the two is on the ball.
Sorry, but you are talking about something entirely different here. Did Verón play in midfield in the EPL? Yes. Was it a three man midfield? No (at least not often enough, we did occasionally play one given we were tinkering with it). Does it mean he can't be deployed in one? Nonsense.
Let's take crappy's point to the Euro draft then.
See below the draft winning side.
Rummenigge in 1980 didn't play in a front two. Allofs and Hrubesch did. It's a 10-man team then.
Laudrup's Denmark didn't play five at the back, he had a lot more support from midfield and this role doesn't suit him then. Apparently. It's a 9-man side now.
Platini played that role for Juve, but France 84 was a magic square. I see no square. Chalk him off. 8-man side.
I'm pretty sure that wasn't Suárez'role for Spain, nor was Pluskal part of a midfield diamond or whatever that is which clearly isn't a 60's formation.
6-man side and lose the game for fielding too few players. And I'm not even sure Brehme played on the right at the Euros, but let's ignore that.
Sorry, but you are talking about something entirely different here. Did Verón play in midfield in the EPL? Yes. Was it a three man midfield? No (at least not often enough, we did occasionally play one given we were tinkering with it). Does it mean he can't be deployed in one? Nonsense.
Let's take crappy's point to the Euro draft then.
See below the draft winning side.
Rummenigge in 1980 didn't play in a front two. Allofs and Hrubesch did. It's a 10-man team then.
Laudrup's Denmark didn't play five at the back, he had a lot more support from midfield and this role doesn't suit him then. Apparently. It's a 9-man side now.
Platini played that role for Juve, but France 84 was a magic square. I see no square. Chalk him off. 8-man side.
I'm pretty sure that wasn't Suárez'role for Spain, nor was Pluskal part of a midfield diamond or whatever that is which clearly isn't a 60's formation.
6-man side and lose the game for fielding too few players. And I'm not even sure Brehme played on the right at the Euros, but let's ignore that.
Well, the crucial difference is that none of those players have dubious credentials in the relevant tournament (they're all great Euro performers).
You can argue that there's something unnatural – and overly bureaucratic – about certain restrictions. And I'd agree with that. How do you completely ignore a player's potential when looking at how he would likely fare in a fantasy match? Well, you don't – that's the truth. But that's a different debate. In this particular draft there are restrictions: What Aldo's arguing is that regarding Veron as a perfectly plausible player in this match (not Prime Veron, sure, but still basically the same player, who can influence the match in a manner which isn't miles off his prime game), amounts to making a mockery of these restrictions. And he has a point.
Veron's problem isn't that he can't play that role – clearly not. He has played it many times, even for United – and even in the league. The problem, however, is that he rarely (and with zero regularity) played it in the league (which is the only thing we should consider here), and also that his league form, as such, is pretty shabby: The conclusion, based on those two factors, should be that PL Veron is too far off Prime Veron to function as his managers claim he will.
If PL Veron – based on a tiny sample of performances – is considered good enough to play an important role in this match, then you can make a similar case for a whole host of other players (who were also largely mediocre, or even shite, but who undoubtedly showed their true class in flashes), and then...well, the restriction principle might as well be abandoned altogether.
The point wasn't peak form. The point was in a fantasy draft you should be able to accommodate players to tactics based on their characteristics. Feel free to question his peak, but questioning him because he didn't play in a three-man midfield? I hope no one plans to play Keano in one then. In fact, most managers are stuck with 4-4-2 then as that's what most players played with any regularity.
Well, to question him because he didn't play in a three-man midfield - is nonsensical. Clearly so. Not least because he actually played in a three-man midfield - even in the league.
But that isn't the problem here. The problem is that Veron's PL form is too shabby. It's as simple as that. Forget about positions and roles - it's his PL form as such which is the problem. You may not agree - but that's the argument.
Accommodating players to tactics based on their characteristics. Yes. That's what it should be about. But here there are restrictions: What you need to accommodate to the tactics are the characteristics displayed by Veron for Manchester United in the league. Nothing beyond that. Veron did play well for United in the league on occasion, but those performances were uncharacteristic of the player who has been drafted here: Gio isn't playing "Veron", he's playing "Veron, 2001-2003, league performances only".
Aye, that about sums up the Veron selection for me. There's nothing wrong with how he's being deployed and Gio's overall midfield balance is great, its just that on PL form Veron is as likely as not to have a poor game.
Tevez on the right instead of as the central forward is another issue for me.
I'm edging towards not voting at all as a I don't rate a few of Sjor's selections that highly either.
Cant I say the same for di maria? He just wasnt at home in a team which didnt play manic box to box football.
Same here.
Veron might be highly questionable - but so is most certainly Welbeck. I'd consider buying Welbeck in a highly specialized role (which is what I at least half suspected he had in mind for him), but not as a wide man in this set-up, it's too big a stretch.
That's actually an apt enough analogy.
Set up a team which suits the Madrid version of Di Maria, concede that he had a poor season for United (but with mitigating circumstances, plus his numbers ain't bad either if you look at the sheer stats) and propose that he will at the very least do a decent job.
Same deal. It's not an illogical argument - but a line has to be drawn somewhere. Because we all know how this thing works in practice: You sell a "decent/will do a job/makeshift/good for a first round match" version of the player, but once said player has been "cleared" in that sense, he will effectively be regarded as something very close to his best incarnation, and it will be supposed that he can bring something truly valuable to the table.
He's played on the left in a 442 many times before and done a job which is all we are asking of him. He will be great with Winterburn against Petrescu, Gerrard and Tevez. He's also handy on the ball which fits with setup excellently
Laurent Robert is surely a better pick on the left than Welbeck
I thought the same thing. During the draft, when I was laying out what I thought everyone was picking, I was sure he'd pick a 4231 with Robert on the left and Welbeck on the bench.
Even I've forgotten what it was supposed to be
Tbf, I did use them in their usual individual roles that they played in the Euros. Oh and Brehme did play on the right in the Euros but I do think that asking them to be utilized in the exact formations that they were for their original teams (if that is what's being asked here) is a bit too much.
As long as the roles they are playing in the draft is similar-ish enough to their real life roles, it shouldn't be a problem imo.
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@antohan I think you misunderstood my comments about Veron. My question regarding him being played in midfield 3 in PL was about Gio saying that Veron has shown that he can function well in a MF 3. I just wanted to know if he has shown the evidence playing in PL or not. If he had performed well even in MF 2, he could have easily been played in MF 3 if you used his performances as an evidence for the same. Here I believe you are basically using his performances else where to say that he would function well in this MF.
Veron can also function in a MF 2 but not in a classical PL 442 but a 4231 IMO
Veron can also function in a MF 2 but not in a classical PL 442 but a 4231 IMO
Yes, somewhat. We've seen good and bad performances from him, if you break that down and we find conensus that it all boils down to that and that when played in a more direct setup he shone, well... fair enough, it would be a well thought out and analysed case for a player. Tricky, risky (clearly since we've been discussing this for two days now), but fair.
My take is the same holds for Verón here, Carrick is the perfect sort of midfielder for him to have as a counterpart. More of a continental player, tactical, focused on keeping the shape, using his intelligence to intercept rather than make crunching tackles... The problem for Verón wasn't facing that sort of midfielder, his problem was getting harried constantly by limited but very physical opponents.
Gotcha. Re: the bolded, you mean that based on PL, strictly? On PL evidence I agree he shouldn't be in a 4-4-2 (he clearly didn't do well and wasn't suited to it). Not sure where the evidence comes from for a 4-2-3-1, I'd expect most of his 4-4-2 problems to still be very much present, unless it's a double-pivot 4-3-3 (he did work well whenever we played him deeper, protected by others and unconcerned about midfield duties). That isn't far from what this is when Gerrard surges forward.
he did btw (I get your point though, of course)
I guess I completely misunderstood the theme and spirit of the draft if that's considered fair. My bad.
It's not a question of that - he can play there, technically, sure. He's very underwhelming in this context, though. Look, I get your argument - I just don't think it's convincing. And nine people out of ten who have commented on it, seem to agree.
Congrats Gio. Good to see the scoreline respectable in the end for Sjor Bepo
Yeah, I was feeling sad for him in the beginning. No way was it a landslide victory. Congrats to Gio and bad luck for Sjor. Well justified to pick Welbeck for a role like this where he has proven himself at a level not many others had that were available as a late pick.
Good game @Šjor Bepo and @Physiocrat - I'm a big fan of McCallister and Keown, both of whom are amongst the very best in their position in the Premiership in the 1990s, while I rate Lloris, Zabaleta and Silva highly, so wasn't keen to argue against any of them.