Let's just agree to disagree on this one. I am not counting on him to make any sort of influence whatsoever, he'll be easily played off the park by the opposition.
All Time Premier League Fantasy Draft: R1 - Gio vs Sjor Bepo
- Thread starter green_smiley
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Ah that is one harsh scoreline, all things considered. Nothing more than a consolation vote, I guess.
I did warn Sjor about picking Phillips, he pushed the 'peak' criteria and in public voting, names matter to a large extent, and Phillips is just not gonna gather much interest despite that one great season. Welbeck though, was simply suicidal, nothing else. Bit better at these two positions and he would have had a lot better chance.
Regardless Gio as usual built a quality side barring that one weird pick, but he could afford that risk given he had picked to class CMs already. Another very strong team going forward.
I did warn Sjor about picking Phillips, he pushed the 'peak' criteria and in public voting, names matter to a large extent, and Phillips is just not gonna gather much interest despite that one great season. Welbeck though, was simply suicidal, nothing else. Bit better at these two positions and he would have had a lot better chance.
Regardless Gio as usual built a quality side barring that one weird pick, but he could afford that risk given he had picked to class CMs already. Another very strong team going forward.
there are plenty of players in the draft with only one great/good season, even gio(Kompany, Robben, Adebayor) has it so the fact that Phillips has a short peak doesnt matter.....as for Welbeck, i knew it was suicidal but as its the league i follow and love the most i picked a team that i like and rate and didnt really payed attention on what will others think of it. In my view Welbz is perfect for the role i had for him and the team would be much weaker if i had better player in his place. I didnt expect much as i was aware that i dont have big names in the team and thats what wins you games here but this result is a joke. Just feel a bit sorry for Physio as this are mainly the players i wanted so he is on the losing side because of me, but i loved working together again
congrats @Gio and good luck in the next round, with proper reinforcements you have a cracking team.
That is my point, he's perfectly fine there according to the rules but that isn't the only thing that dictates the outcome of these games.
No problem @Šjor Bepo
Your good to work with and always produce coherent sides rather than throwing big names out of position
Your good to work with and always produce coherent sides rather than throwing big names out of position
Indeed, that's what I find odd about the reference to you facing one of the best midfields in the draft. Good players in Sjor's but yours is better, by some distance.
Of course Veron could do that, but he never did it consistently over even one season
Going by just PL form, that is a debatable point at the very least. Of course Gio has players who accumulated fame elsewhere, or CL or internationals, which enhances their reputation by a good margin, but this isn't the CL final or the FA Cup final Slippy, this is the PL Slippy. His peak itself has been a topic of debate among Liverpool fans, some say right of a 4-4-2, some say behind Torres in a 4-2-3-1. Carrick, obviously not as flashy, but has spent many a PL winning campaign performing critical duties in central midfield of what was largely a 4-4-2 resting on his back for midfield dominance. It's not far back when we saw the difference he makes to a team. He doesn't score match winning screamers or camera kissing penalties but he's been a valuable servant to us for a decade, so I don't know where the distance is between their careers.
We shouldn't really compare them given they are in different setups, but for a setup constructed to dominate possession and pass it around, he's as good a holding midfielder you will get in this draft. Paired with GaryMac, a fantastic leader, and a great presence in midfield. Gio would know better than to downplay his ability. With Zola and Silva in front they will simply take the piss here. Silva has, without similar creative presence in the ability on the ball and playing in front of the likes of De Jong and Fenandinho has controlled games like it was child's play, we United fans have been put to the sword the most by him. And then there's Zola, to provide that touch of genius and use this possession to provide the end product. It all falls apart there of course as you look at the king of one season wonders and Danny Welbeck, but far as midfield goes, these are PL legends who deserve their due, in a PL draft no less, despite not as fashionable on the sheet as their opponents. But I guess I am in the minority who doesn't look at Veron's time in the PL as anything worthy enough to be putting a shift against such a proven quality midfield, funnily enough haha.
By this logic, all anyone needs to do is take one or two games and argue that it's the peak of a player. All other bad performances are due to the system. Surprised di Maria wasn't picked, was magical when played in the right system aka the first three games.
Aldo has sort of convinced me.. initially I thought Gio would win this at canter but going purely by PL performances, this should be touch and go.
@Aldo appreciate the effort you are putting in, specially as i gave up after 10:2.....
For all the flak we got for playing Ronaldo and kewell on opposite wings than what people are used to...even though both did it regularly, and to a high level....to then see veron, a premier league flop on more than one list, skate by with little to no criticism is a bit odd.
Tevez on the right of Gio's attack hasn't really attracted much comment. IIRC he consistently played as their main centre forward, where Adebeyor is here basically, with the likes of Bellamy and Robinho playing a left-attacker role and Elano and later Milner on the rght in various 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 type formations. He was far better as the main man in City's attack than he was for Utd even in his first season. He looks slightly shoe-horned in here to me, which is not something I often say about Gio's picks. Posting a Robbie Savage article on tactics is not something I normally do to support an argument either, but here goes:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22072403
I largely agree with Aldo on Veron too, much as I like Veron as a player overall. Gio is going to be formidable with a few reinforcements, but I'm not a big fan of this initial selection.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22072403
I largely agree with Aldo on Veron too, much as I like Veron as a player overall. Gio is going to be formidable with a few reinforcements, but I'm not a big fan of this initial selection.
Verón never lost or seemed not to have the ability to do that while with us. He just wasn't at home in a four man midfield which played manic/direct box-to-box football.
That's not the setup Gio has him in.
It's not a midfield that revolves around Verón, it's a midfield where defensive duties are largely Makelele's and bombing forward duties are Gerrard's and all this fecker has to do is ping the ball around and look a bit busy. Anyone arguing he couldn't do that is taking the whole "peak" definition too far. Will he be the dominant force in midfield? Nope. Will he fulfill his role? Yes.
He was a flop given the anticipation and money he cost. You make it sound like he was worse than Djemba-Djemba, Liam Miller, Kleberson or any of the countless shite midfielders we signed around that time.
You are aware he actually did win a Premiership title, right? Couldn't be the giant liability he is being painted as.
Not sure what to say to that - Gerrard was voted a record 8 times into the Premiership Team of the Year, his record in the league is virtually unrivaled.
He also won the Football Writers' Association Footballer of the Year, PFA Player of the Year, PFA Fans' Player of the Year and made the FIFA world XI on three occasions. Carrick is a very good midfielder but Gerrard is one of the best players to ever play in the Premiership.
But yeah, if you tried to argue that Carrick was as influential a player as Gerrard outside of the Caf I don't think anyone would take you too seriously. You're clearly understating him because he played for Liverpool, whilst Carrick plays for the team you support.
Hardly, he has not one but TWO important jobs which if not carried out would leave Gio's team handicapped, particularly what he's up against.
1. Who is controlling the tempo for team Gio here? Neither Makelele not Gerrard can do that, Gerrard's best came with Alonso doing that alongside or behind him and doing that to perfection. Slippy hasn't the slightest clue on how to do that, positional indiscipline as well as going straight for the most obvious pass or the hollywood balls, he's not the one who will know when to keep it and pass it around and when to launch it. The onus thus falls to the mega flop Veron who couldn't cope up with the lack of time and space allowed to him to do such a job. So, yes, that is one critical job for him.
2. Pressing, you need your CM to press and hound to get the ball off the likes of Zola, Silva and GaryMac. And a large amount of it. Makelele, is a great destroyer, but you don't expect him to hound his opponent around the park, mobility was never his forte. Slippy of course in this case is a great use, but it would not be enough. With a team that already dominates the ball, you can't afford a player neglecting that largely and giving them more comfort. He has David Silva cutting in on his side, and he's one of the toughest players to get the ball off.
@Šjor Bepo Haha no worries, wouldn't get your hopes up tbh and the match reached a stage of very little chance of recovery a while back. Your players deserve a lot more credit they are getting, simple as that.
Is Adebayor in the last year of his contract though... That could swing it
You're really bringing up the ability of the midfield to press a side when one has Makekele and Gerrard and the other has Carrick and Gary McAllister?
Not a liability, but never good enough to be in this company. It is simply going against the spirit of the draft to give him the same credit as Sjor's MFs are getting.
And Zola and Silva. It is a four man midfield, compared to your two and a half. With all 4 of them being a class above anything you have when talking about the ability on the ball and how to keep it.
The thing is Mac and Carrick will have most of the ball.
You're being hilariously bias.
And don't bother responding to the actual point of course - You bring up pressing and how vital it is when it's quite blatantly clear that one side can press far more than the other.
Rather, one side requires to be pressed a lot more than the other.
my midfield is capable and perfectly happy with playing possession game so thats why gio's midfield needs to press to win the ball....on the other hand i can afford do wait for him to come to me as he doesnt have the players that can wait and they will play a pretty direct game.
I feel similarly aggrieved watching Vertonghen get by with hardly a word said when Vermaelen got such a hard time in my game. Silva against Vertonghen looks like a source of joy. He often has a mistake in him and Spurs fans generally aren't that keen on him.
A few folk are missing the point regarding Veron. We haven't at any point claimed that this is him at his absolute best or that he met the expectations of that huge transfer fee. It's not a disingenuous pick where we're trying to pull the wool over voters' eyes. He's in there to play a fairly straightforward role that plays to his strengths and one which, on the evidence of his time at United, he is easily capable of doing. He didn't fit into United's 4-4-2 but he excelled whenever he played in a three-man midfield and/or with a partner who would defer to him. With his passing range and vision - which he showcased plenty of times at United - he fits there like a glove.
biggest mismatch on the pitch.....proven great partnership of Zabaleta and Silva against Vertonghen who doesnt have much help as Robben is playing in front of him.
The point is he didn't do it enough to be taken seriously here. You need at least a season of him doing that constantly, not a handful of games. And a season is the absolute minimum.
I don't think that they would at all, not that it matters much because I don't see possession being a factor here for either side.
Kompany and Wright are very good ball players and my view quite adamantly is that Makelele/Veron/Gerrard are well placed to win the midfield battle and see the lions share of the ball. As stated at the earlier Makelele was never one for splitting defences but he kept the ball as well as any DM and rarely lost possession with safe passes that ticked the game over and Veron was always an excellent ball player.
I think there is also a greater ability to win back the ball and pressure the opposition which is just as important when it comes to keeping possession.
I'm not sure what you're so occupied with possession for anyway. Zola was technically excellent but he wasn't a possession footballer and you wouldn't want him to be.
Come on Aldo that's a load of tosh. Do we really need to list Gerrard's individual achievements here?
- Ballon d'Or Bronze Award (1): 2005
- UEFA Club Footballer of the Year (1): 2005
- FWA Footballer of the Year (1): 2009
- FWA Tribute Award (1): 2013
- PFA Players' Player of the Year (1): 2006
- PFA Young Player of the Year (1): 2001
- PFA Fans' Player of the Year (2): 2001, 2009
- PFA Merit Award (1): 2015
- PFA Team of the Year (8): 2001, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2014
- England Player of the Year Award (2): 2007, 2012
- Liverpool Player of the Year Award (4): 2004, 2006, 2007, 2009
- Liverpool Top Goalscorer (4): 2004–05,[220] 2005–06,[221] 2008–09[222] 2014–15[223]
- UEFA Euro Team of the Tournament (1): 2012
- UEFA Team of the Year (3): 2005, 2006, 2007
- FIFA/FIFPro World XI (3): 2007, 2008, 2009
- ESM Team of the Year (1): 2008–09
- Goal of the Season (1): 2006
- UEFA Champions League Final Man of the Match (1): 2005
- FA Cup Final Man of the Match (1): 2006
- Premier League Player of the Month Award (6): March 2001, March 2003, December 2004, April 2006, March 2009, March 2014
- ECHO Sports Personality of the Year Award (1): 2014
- BBC Sports Personality of the Year Award – 3rd Place: 2005
- IFFHS World's Most Popular Footballer: 2006
- Premier League 20 Seasons Awards (1992–93 to 2011–12)
I disagree. I think Verón got a harsh deal in that he came just when one great midfield was finishing its cycle and the manager decided to anticipate that and started tinkering. Worse, SAF announced he was retiring. Put two and two together and the context wasn't right for some big name import to flourish.
Somehow, people associate that fall from three-times winners to being outside the top two for the first time in a decade with Verón's arrival. It wasn't just Verón, we had also downgraded from Stam to Larry OAP White. The next season we got Rio, SAF wasn't leaving, Verón started more games than Keane or Butt, and we won the darned thing. Then he left and we went through that wonderful period when we wished we still had him rather than the complete dogshit we had in midfield.
On the contrary, our entire back four and keeper are all very good on the ball. Petrescu is excellent and provided countless assists in his time in England. Mark Wright is well known as a strong ball-playing centre-half, Kompany too. We'll get better possession off our defence than you will.
I hadn't even considered that, beautiful combination of cutting inside and overlapping, telepathic.
I didn't even say Carrick spent a better career, but you know it well that if you forget his CLs and FA Cups, he spent plenty of seasons dodging around in 2 man midfields and what not. Of course the excuse being he was surrounded by tosh when Carrick had Ronaldo and Rooney winning games for him, which is fair.
And I also followed it by saying that while Carrick individually is inferior to Slippy, would you swap him for Gerrard in Sjor's team and what he wants is a classic holding midfielder? Horses for courses, Carrick works very well here, which is the important point.
You ain't the only one.
And what you argue above is perfectly sound. With Veron we're not only dealing with the peak conundrum (that any prolonged period in which he was A, B or C simply didn't last long enough to make a valid judgment possible) but also the competition restriction/limitation factor. Veron was frequently good-to-very-good for United in Europe. In the league, however, he was only good in flashes.
The argument seems to be that he was sufficiently good in these flashes to make him a plausible makeshift solution in a first round match – but this is a slope so slippery that you don't have to be Slippy to...slip on it:
That said, Veron isn't exactly a scan-voter friendly inclusion. The average voter on here will not think: “Ah, Veron – he was excellent, a bit shite for United but excellent elsewhere, and he suits that set-up to the letter.” What he will think is more like: “Veron? He was shite in the PL.”
So, in that sense – I guess it sort of evens out.
Dwelling into why he didn't work or why he was sold is irrelevant here, he simply doesn't have enough top drawer performances for him to get any credit, that is the truth of the matter. Why, How, whatever, but that is the fact. And anyway I've already explained why I don't agree that all he has to do is spray a couple of passes and sit back the rest of the time. Not with a proven multiple PL winning combination of Zabaleta and Silva attacking from that side - which I would add was one of the biggest strengths of that team.
It's clear that Gio's midfield three are set up for a direct style of play. Also unless Veron plays brilliantly there's no-one to dictate play. It's clear that the main plan is get it to Veron to play long diagonals for Robben on the counter. It's a good tactic if it was the Lazio Veron but it isn't.
Anyway, this means Gio will have to press more than Bepo. As I said earlier I think possession will be something like 56-44.
Yes Zola wasn't Iniesta but there's no way he won't thrive seeing this much of the ball
It's quite good getting this repeated opportunity to highlight Gerrard's performances in the Premier League. 8 times he's been in the PFA Team of the Year!
The beauty is though that he's in the perfect set-up. Firstly, he has Makelele anchoring behind him, the best in the business. Second, he's playing in a three. Third, he's playing as the RCM, his favoured channel on the park with space to bomb forward. Fourth, he's up against a physically lacking midfield.
The midfield is designed to get the best out of Gerrard. And no wonder - he's the best player on the park.