All Time Great Managers Draft

[Synco]

I’ll do it

The roster has been filled in the meantime, but you could look for an assistant manager spot, if you want.

@Synco

Haven't the time, but I'll be keeping a bookmark on the draft.

Ta.

Would be nice if you'd zoom in for the match discussions.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Thanks for the tag @Synco , will watch keenly who picks whom (managers wise)

I agree with the Di Stefano conundrum and think having a small blocked list will help the philosophies shine much more.

 

[Synco]

Thanks for the tag @Synco , will watch keenly who picks whom (managers wise)

I agree with the Di Stefano conundrum and think having a small blocked list will help the philosophies shine much more.

I guess there's still time tomorrow to discuss this and other open questions. Would be good if some more playing managers say something about it as well.

Otherwise, stick around for the draft match discussions too, if you want.

 

[Jim Beam]

Ah, Di Stefano an interesting, all debating one. But whether at 10 or a bit deeper as a part of midfield three, there are at least 2 managers in which tactics he would absolutely thrive. But then again, it is Di Stefano and he would say "xy" (insert any managerial great) to feck off and just start stealing balls from his teammates.

 

[Synco]

A fellow drafter, who prefers to remain anonymous, has proposed a block list for über-GOATs

Pele, Messi, Fenomeno, Di Stefano, Cristiano, Garrincha, Muller, Cruyff
Xavi, Matthaus, Rijkaard, Neeskens, Platini, Maradona
Cafu, Maldini, Facchetti, Carlos Alberto
Baresi, Beckenbauer, Nesta, Kohler, Figueroa

The issue we should discuss first is not this or that specific player, but the general question if the draft idea gains or loses when the goatiest GOATs are removed.

Another problem might be that some drafters may have already based their manager choices on the availability of these players. In that case, please speak up.

So what do you think, yay or nay?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

minion <3

 

[Physiocrat]

Block list looks good to me

 

[Jim Beam]

Another problem might be that some drafters may have already based their manager choices on the availability of these players. In that case, please speak up.

Pretty much. Don't have a problem with it if I can change my managers list.

Edit: forget it, all good as far as am concerned

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Gullit is one player that I would add. Bastard fits any team and every philosophy. Almost a cheat pick for a draft like this.

 

[Joga Bonito]

A fellow drafter, who prefers to remain anonymous, has proposed a block list for über-GOATs

The issue we should discuss first is not this or that specific player, but the general question if the draft idea gains or loses when the goatiest GOATs are removed.

Another problem might be that some drafters may have already based their manager choices on the availability of these players. In that case, please speak up.

So what do you think, yay or nay?

Sounds good to me (as a neutral).

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Block list is fine. I'd propose to add Iniesta to the list.

 

[Synco]

Will decide on the block list tomorrow, not too late during the day. More opinions are welcome.

In case of a block list, manager choices can be changed & the deadline is extended for a few hours.

Player drafting should start that evening, or next morning at the latest.

 

[harms]

I'd be okay with that. It's a shame that you won't see Xavi in Mourinho's team, but it makes sense to block a few GOATs to bring more focus on manager's style and team-building.

 

[Synco]

I'd be okay with that. It's a shame that you won't see Xavi in Mourinho's team, but it makes sense to block a few GOATs to bring more focus on manager's style and team-building.

I think the block list would be shorter, only concentrating on a few über-GOATs.

 

[Michaelf7777777]

I'd prefer a restricted list (only allowed 1 or 2 of the all time greats) rather than a complete ban on them.

 

[Himannv]

Gullit is one player that I would add. Bastard fits any team and every philosophy. Almost a cheat pick for a draft like this.

Agree with this. Makes more sense to block players who can sort of fit in everywhere.

 

[P-Nut]

I'd prefer a restricted list (only allowed 1 or 2 of the all time greats) rather than a complete ban on them.

Yeah I'd go with this, don't want a proper goat fest draft, but should be able to pick 1 or 2.

It would also make it so that when you're picking a goat you're going to make sure they fit the philosophy.

 

[Enigma_87]

I'd prefer a restricted list (only allowed 1 or 2 of the all time greats) rather than a complete ban on them.

Agree with this. In a draft like this you wouldn't want to compile goats either way as it will disrupt the balance.

The list should also be shorter and as mentioned the GOAT's aren't really the problem here. Blocking players like Nedved, Gullit and Iniesta makes more sense rather than Maradona and Pele.

 

[Synco]

Agree with this. Makes more sense to block players who can sort of fit in everywhere.

Blocking players like Nedved, Gullit and Iniesta makes more sense rather than Maradona and Pele.

Don't quite get this - why is that so? I mean, if a player is flexible, good on the drafter.

(I also don't agree Gullit and Iniesta fit every team easily.)

 

[Synco]

One thing I'll adopt in any case is a reinforcement rule Physio had in his Oasis Draft:

Picks 1+2 are blocked for reinforcements for the whole tournament.

 

[Enigma_87]

Don't quite get this - why is that so? I mean, if a player is flexible, good on the drafter.

(I also don't agree Gullit and Iniesta fit every team easily.)

Because when you put Gullit in a possession set up, counter attacking set up, right wing, SS, AM, there will be no questions asked and he will be considered great pick.

Same with Iniesta and Nedved - being able to operate wide and in the middle in different kinds of set ups.

If you put Maradona on the wing or alongside say Platini it will be an off fit right away. If you put Messi as a false 9 with an orthodox right/left winger he'll be questioned and seen as ill fit.

In an open pool GOAT's will be a huge plus, but in this draft it's the versatile players that would get more appreciation and used almost as a cheat code.

One thing I'll adopt in any case is a reinforcement rule Physio had in his Oasis Draft:

Picks 1+2 are blocked for reinforcements for the whole tournament.

Personally I think allowing 2 picks from that block list would be enough without blocking picks 1 + 2 in RR. This way drafters can drop their first pick if they were say 16th in the pecking order and pick another 1st round pick from the top seeds.

Generally 1+2 picks being blocked give advantage to those on top of the snake as they get their hands on the best players, whilst the ones on the bottom can't pick them at all.

 

[Synco]

Because when you put Gullit in a possession set up, counter attacking set up, right wing, SS, AM, there will be no questions asked and he will be considered great pick.

Same with Iniesta and Nedved - being able to operate wide and in the middle in different kinds of set ups.

If you put Maradona on the wing or alongside say Platini it will be an off fit right away. If you put Messi as a false 9 with an orthodox right/left winger he'll be questioned and seen as ill fit.

In an open pool GOAT's will be a huge plus, but in this draft it's the versatile players that would get more appreciation and used almost as a cheat code.

I see, so it's about the possibility to be combined with GOATs at will. Makes sense.

For Gullit that's obviously true (although I personally don't think he fits a pure possession setup really well, but certainly most others). Still not convinced about Nedved, Iniesta, Neeskens, because honestly, where does it stop then. Iniesta on the wing is also restricted to a tiki-taka setting, imo.

Personally I think allowing 2 picks from that block list would be enough without blocking picks 1 + 2 in RR. This way drafters can drop their first pick if they were say 16th in the pecking order and pick another 1st round pick from the top seeds.

Generally 1+2 picks being blocked give advantage to those on top of the snake as they get their hands on the best players, whilst the ones on the bottom can't pick them at all.

I think I'll go with only 1 player from a list of ~25 difference makers and Physio's RR rule. Too goaty otherwise.

Snake always gives an advantage to someone, and we're talking about 7 picks max before no.8 can make a double pick.

 

[Synco]

Preliminary list - each drafter can pick only one player. Inspired by Sjor's mystery man's list from above, but changed around somewhat.

Beckenbauer, Baresi, Figueroa, Nesta, Kohler, Maldini, Cafu, Facchetti
Rijkaard, Matthäus
Maradona, Di Stefano, Platini
Pele, Messi, Cruyff, Puskas, Zico, Gullit, Best, Garrincha, C. Ronaldo, Eusebio
Fenomeno, Müller, Van Basten

Not entirely sure about Nesta, Kohler, Cafu, Facchetti because of the one player limit, but I tend to leave them in.
Zico/Puskas in but Zidane/Charlton out may be a thin line, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. Don't want the list to be too extensive.

Can be discussed for the next 8 hours (including Nedved, Iniesta, Neeskens), then I'll make a decision so we can finally commence.

Edit: Final decision is made, see next page.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Preliminary list - each drafter can pick only one player. Inspired by Sjor's mystery man's list from above, but changed around somewhat.

Not entirely sure about Nesta, Kohler, Cafu, Facchetti because of the one player limit, but I tend to leave them in.
Zico/Puskas in but Zidane/Charlton out may be a thin line, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. Don't want the list to be too extensive.

Can be discussed for the next 5 hours (including Nedved, Iniesta, Neeskens), then I'll make a decision so we can commence.

Looks better. Didn't think Carlos Alberto and Neeskens belonged there.

Also don't think Kohler, Eusebio and Puskas belong there. (I don't see Puskas as someone who gets the same love as Van Basten/Muller).

Especially Eusebio, who's hardly an easy sell for most setups and isn't one who gets a lot of love. Might be the draft for him to shine.

Agree with leaving Iniesta and Nedved out. Especially Iniesta who is not an easy sell always. Nedved perhaps an easy sell, but have hardly seen him have a great outing recently over here.

Desailly is one more player I would consider blocking just for the goatness in multiple positions. But other than that, I can say the list can only be compressed and not expanded anymore.

Edit: Oh and Romario probably should be there. With the goat CBs blocked, he'd be a lottery for whoever bags him

 

[Enigma_87]

Preliminary list - each drafter can pick only one player. Inspired by Sjor's mystery man's list from above, but changed around somewhat.

Not entirely sure about Nesta, Kohler, Cafu, Facchetti because of the one player limit, but I tend to leave them in.
Zico/Puskas in but Zidane/Charlton out may be a thin line, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. Don't want the list to be too extensive.

Can be discussed for the next 8 hours (including Nedved, Iniesta, Neeskens), then I'll make a decision so we can finally commence.

Personally I'd remove Cafu from the list - Carlos Alberto, Djalma, Zanetti, etc doesn't really make a much of a difference or drop in quality and we need to stop somewhere.

Probably would remove Kohler and Nesta from the list, but add Scirea and Moore.

Would remove Eusebio from the list on the basis that he's a player that you can expect him being polemic in his use (as as SS, CF, left right, etc), so it would be interesting to see how he's used in particular set up and whether or not he would be a good fit in a particular set up. Same for Puskas really.

 

[Synco]

Also don't think Kohler, Eusebio and Puskas belong there. (I don't see Puskas as someone who gets the same love as Van Basten/Muller).

Especially Eusebio, who's hardly an easy sell for most setups and isn't one who gets a lot of love. Might be the draft for him to shine.

Would remove Eusebio from the list on the basis that he's a player that you can expect him being polemic in his use (as as SS, CF, left right, etc), so it would be interesting to see how he's used in particular set up and whether or not he would be a good fit in a particular set up. Same for Puskas really.

I thought hard about these two. The reasoning was that a possible Maradona/Eusebio or Puskas/Pele attack would simply be too much.

Other points are noted as well.

 

[Gio]

Need to be clear about the purpose of the block list. Is it to reduce the number of GOATs or is it to reduce the number who seamlessly slip into any set-up? The two lists are quite different IMO. Several of the GOATs are actually terribly tricky to fit into different set-ups and we hold varying views on how they should be best deployed - Di Stefano, Xavi, Puskas, Eusebio, Cruyff. I can see fitting in those players being an interesting aspect of this draft. Whereas the likes of Figueroa, Rijkaard, Desailly, Pele, Gullit and Nedved can be plonked into any set-up alongside any partner no questions asked.

Obviously we can try to both limit the number of GOATs and reduce the seamless fits, but I just think we need to be clear on what it is we want to achieve first.

Generally 1+2 picks being blocked give advantage to those on top of the snake as they get their hands on the best players, whilst the ones on the bottom can't pick them at all.

This.

Plus the issue that became apparent in the Remake draft was that the teams didn't change much from game to game which saw the discussion dry up as the tournament progressed. That's inevitable when the debate is more about the construction of the team than how it fares against the opposition.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

The reasoning was that a possible Maradona/Eusebio or Puskas/Pele attack would simply be too much.

Oh, so you are allowing people from the blocked list? I was not aware of that.

Personally, I don't like it. This is a draft about the managers and allowing the Goats will make the discussion centralized around whether the goat fits the manager's philosophy a lot of times.

After the goat heavy last draft which frankly became uninteresting to follow from a neutral point of view from the semis, I don't think people should mind a draft without a handful of them.

Edit: My suggestion would be a complete block on the players from the list and blocking round 1 picks only during reinforcements. Round 2 picks should already be diluted due to the reinforcements, so should be okay.

 

[Synco]

Need to be clear about the purpose of the block list. Is it to reduce the number of GOATs or is it to reduce the number who seamlessly slip into any set-up?

(...)

Obviously we can try to both limit the number of GOATs and reduce the seamless fits, but I just think we need to be clear on what it is we want to achieve first.

Targets:
#1 drastically reduce the available goat power per team
#2 remove the most obvious wingman cheats (Gullit, Puskas, Eusebio)

 

[Synco]

Oh, so you are allowing people from the blocked list? I was not aware of that.

Personally, I don't like it. This is a draft about the managers and allowing the Goats will make the discussion centralized around whether the goat fits the manager's philosophy a lot of times.

After the goat heavy last draft which frankly became uninteresting to follow from a neutral point of view from the semis, I don't think people should mind a draft without a handful of them.

Edit: My suggestion would be a complete block on the players from the list and blocking round 1 picks only during reinforcements. Round 2 picks should already be diluted due to the reinforcements, so should be okay.

As stated above the list, one player only. I agree with @Gio that the integration of some players (for me: Cruyff, Di Stefano, C. Ronaldo, Beckenbauer and a few more) will be interesting in the context of the manager theme, so I don't want to block them entirely. With others it might be less interesting, that's true.

 

[Gio]

Targets:
#1 drastically reduce the available goat power per team
#2 remove the most obvious wingman cheats (Gullit, Puskas, Eusebio)

Cool. #2 makes sense and I'm always down with #1 because just about every draft is an all-time pool these days, so it's good to keep it fresh. Perhaps the least agenda-driven way to cut it is to look at Physio's P&G draft player transfer list and chop off or limit players above a certain value (eg everyone above £120m and defender above £100m - just an example I haven't thought about it).

 

[Himannv]

Oh, so you are allowing people from the blocked list? I was not aware of that.

Personally, I don't like it. This is a draft about the managers and allowing the Goats will make the discussion centralized around whether the goat fits the manager's philosophy a lot of times.

After the goat heavy last draft which frankly became uninteresting to follow from a neutral point of view from the semis, I don't think people should mind a draft without a handful of them.

Edit: My suggestion would be a complete block on the players from the list and blocking round 1 picks only during reinforcements. Round 2 picks should already be diluted due to the reinforcements, so should be okay.

You have to consider that some GOATs could be blocked as well. If they played under the manager you select then that blocks them and everyone else who played under said manager. So a restricted list + block list of your choosing seems enough as far as restrictions are concerned.

 

[Physiocrat]

Cool. #2 makes sense and I'm always down with #1 because just about every draft is an all-time pool these days, so it's good to keep it fresh. Perhaps the least agenda-driven way to cut it is to look at Physio's P&G draft player transfer list and chop off or limit players above a certain value (eg everyone above £120m and defender above £100m - just an example I haven't thought about it).

Peaches and a GOAT players worth £100m or more -

Defenders -

Beckenbauer 170
Baresi 150
Maldini 130
Figueroa 130
Nesta 115
Scirea 115
Moore 110
Thuram 110
Facchetti 110
Cafu 110
Nilton 105
Carlos Alberto 105
Brehme 100
Zanetti 100
Kohler 100

Midfielders -

Matthaus 170
Platini 160
Rijkaard 160
Zico 150
Falcao 120
Zidane 120
Neeskens 120
Charlton 115
Laudrup 100
Didi 100
Xavi 100

Forwards -

Pele 200
Maradona 200
Messi 190
Ronaldo 190
Cristiano 180
Cruyff 180
Di Stefano 180
G. Muller 170
Garrincha 160
Van Basten 160
Best 160
Romario 160
Puskas 160
Eusebio 150
Ronaldinho 120
Gullit 115
Rummenigge 105
Dzajic 105
R.Baggio 100

I think blocking all the defenders would be fine as they are considered really top tier players. With midfield I'd definitely allow Didi, not sure about the others. With forwards I think blocking anyone Gullit and above would be fair but I'd keep Kalle, Baggio and Dzajic.

 

[Synco]

Peaches and a GOAT players worth £100m or more -

That list would be too extensive for my liking. Many of the "cheaper" ones are cool options for the manager theme.

Anyway: the top players of these three lists are identical with the ones in my proposal above, which is a good sign. First 5 defenders, first 4 midfielders, first 11 forwards. Subtract a few defenders from my list & add the wingman cheats, and it's pretty much the same ranking.

 

[Enigma_87]

Need to be clear about the purpose of the block list. Is it to reduce the number of GOATs or is it to reduce the number who seamlessly slip into any set-up? The two lists are quite different IMO. Several of the GOATs are actually terribly tricky to fit into different set-ups and we hold varying views on how they should be best deployed - Di Stefano, Xavi, Puskas, Eusebio, Cruyff. I can see fitting in those players being an interesting aspect of this draft. Whereas the likes of Figueroa, Rijkaard, Desailly, Pele, Gullit and Nedved can be plonked into any set-up alongside any partner no questions asked.

Obviously we can try to both limit the number of GOATs and reduce the seamless fits, but I just think we need to be clear on what it is we want to achieve first.

Yeah, spot on. Obviously the merit of a block list in all time draft is perfectly fine if we don't follow a theme, but in the current draft GOAT's won't really be as much beneficial if we(and voters) stay true on the theme.

Even in recent drafts we see balance being more or less bigger key point, rather than plonking names on the team sheet.

Most GOAT's won't even be picked anyway for particular managers so a 1-2 names off that list seems perfectly fine solution anyways.

If we want to block certain players to make it more difficult for managers it should be exactly the Figueroa, Gullit, Nedved, Desailly type, rather than the Messi and Cruyff types..

 

[Jim Beam]

We should block Pavel Nedved??

 

[Synco]

We should block Pavel Nedved??

Won't happen.

 

[Physiocrat]

That list would be too extensive for my liking. Many of the "cheaper" ones are cool options for the manager theme.

Anyway: the top players of these three lists are identical with the ones in my proposal above, which is a good sign. First 5 defenders, first 4 midfielders, first 11 forwards. Subtract a few defenders from my list & add the wingman cheats, and it's pretty much the same ranking.

Why don't you write out you revised proposed block list and the reasoning and then we can go from there?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Block List: Maldini, Baresi, Rijkaard, Matthaus, Neeskens, Pele, Gullit, Beckenbauer, Falcao

1 Pick List: Don, Cruyff, Messi, Cristiano, Maradona, Muller, Van Basten, Romario, Zico, Platini, Xavi, Moore, Scirea, Nesta, Cafu, Facchetti, Puskas, Best, Garrincha, Laudrup, Zidane, Kohler, Krol

That will make 16 players from both lists be unpicked which is pretty much like a 1 block round with players that fit any system and multiple roles being perma blocked.

 

[Synco]

Why don't you write out you revised proposed block list and the reasoning and then we can go from there?

--------------------

Beckenbauer, Baresi, Figueroa, Nesta, Maldini, Facchetti
Rijkaard, Matthäus
Maradona, Di Stefano, Platini
Pele, Messi, Cruyff, Puskas, Zico, Gullit, Best, Garrincha, C. Ronaldo, Eusebio
Fenomeno, Müller, Van Basten

Targets:
#1 drastically reduce the available goat power per team
#2 remove the most obvious wingman cheats (Gullit, Puskas, Eusebio)

Would be my preference. Not a block list, but only one pick per drafter.

Possible additions: Kohler (#1 classic stopper by far) and Cafu (#1 attacking RB by far).