All-time Fantasy Draft - Brwned v Cutch

Who will win based on players in their prime, team tactics, balance & bench strength?


  • Total voters
    50
  • Poll closed .
It's absolutely not a bad thing, and in the context of this game he's just been playing knockout rounds which again counts in his favour, I just think the "closest thing to a one-man team since Maradona in '86" is very overblown. He was brilliant, but not breathtakingly good. Eusébio was, Pelé was, Cruyff, Beckenbauer and Platini were...each of them played in excellent teams with perhaps Portugal '66 being at the same level as Italy '94, but they were consistently brilliant throughout and, to me, that's much more important/impressive. The only reason I would use '94 as a criticism is for the reasons outlined in that article and something that was reiterated throughout his career and backed up by his somewhat nomadic career - he was deemed a luxury player by many, Sacchi being the most notable one. I'm no fan of Marcotti but he's got a reasonably in-depth knowledge of Italian football at the time and here's what he said...

baggio2.png
Sorry for the late reply, there's also quite a few bits to address which resulted in a long post that feels all over the place.

I actually agree with Baggio largely being a luxury player, but for me '94 is what lifts him above those criticisms & marks him as one of the greats. He definitely did not dominate that World Cup in the way other greats may have done, but I think he did carry Italy. I'm not sure where that one-man team quote comes from but I think it gives the wrong impression - by no means was he a force of nature, dominating games single-handedly. The context wasn't right for his best game, but his ability & his will to win or whatever, meant that he rose above a crap system in not ideal physical condition to decide on his own the key moments of games in Italy's favour.

Any negative aimed at Baggio & Italy in that World Cup is better aimed at Sacchi I think. He was a great coach with a vision of football that changed how the game was played, but then I think he never changed with the game as things moved on further. In my opinion he did a terrible job with the national team. Despite favouring Baggio over the likes of Vialli & Mancini (taking neither in '94 after falling out with both), he never found a system that allowed Baggio to shine, nor even a settled team (he apparently used 77 different players in his 53 games in charge). They almost went out at the group stages before Baggio did carry them to the final. Sacchi went on to snub Baggio for Euro '96 where they actually did go out in the group stages.

It's funny, I think these criticisms are all true of Del Piero, but Baggio, without the same team ethic/willingness to run actually did decide games at the highest level when he wasn't at his vintage best, which puts him a level above. I'm not arguing that's he better than Di Stéfano, obviously (mainly because I've never really watched him)!

I think that Marcotti snippet is incredibly harsh. When Baggio played at the top level, he performed at the top level. He moved clubs a lot because he fell out with numerous coaches. He was unlucky with Lippi/Sacchi (though he still bailed both out), but he certainly didn't seem easy to manage - I think he probably just has a personality that's not ideal for football (nor bureaucracy/or just being able to work with anyone else on anything, judging by his recent FIGC resignation). You also get the sense he's one of those players who was never as happy after leaving the first club he loved.

On the luxury player thing, I think one of the most interesting things about Italian football is the complete reverence for the fantasista at club level, without it ever easily translating to the national team. Players of the highest quality such as Baggio & Totti only getting 50 odd caps each (& the amount of different roles Totti was required to fill for the national team) seems testament to that. Mario Corso (23 caps) & Gigi Meroni (6 caps, though he died incredibly young at 24) are earlier examples given in John Foot's Calcio - players who were phenomenal at club level yet weren't ever deemed to fit the national team's strict system. There is that whole history of the staffetta/relay not just linked to forwards, following on from Mazzola & Rivera, with the debates over which one creative/luxury player should get the nod.
 
ant0haj i might not have my write up done till afternoon tomorrow. quite sick. theon helping me. is it ok if we start the game little later in the day
 
ant0haj i might not have my write up done till afternoon tomorrow. quite sick. theon helping me. is it ok if we start the game little later in the day

Not really, I'm off to a wedding around 4PM your time. I had completely forgotten about it.

If you have it by, say, 2PM tomorrow, we can get the early exchanges in before I bugger off. Otherwise we'll try work something out. Your health comes first.

Let's take this over to the main thread though. Doubt people are interested!
 
Doesn't look like there will be any changes or new arguments.

The sides are very close and could play each other several times with mixed results.

Ultimately, I think Cutch can just about keep up with the midfield battle, but can't see Brehme coping with George Best and Nilton Santos. That flank is just awesome and will be a continuous source of joy for Cutch which is not to be found elsewhere on the pitch.
 
Both look great, but I'd take Hierro out and put Edwards next to Charles, then put Bryan Robson in midfield with Redondo.
 
Doesn't look like there will be any changes or new arguments.

The sides are very close and could play each other several times with mixed results.

Ultimately, I think Cutch can just about keep up with the midfield battle, but can't see Brehme coping with George Best and Nilton Santos. That flank is just awesome and will be a continuous source of joy for Cutch which is not to be found elsewhere on the pitch.

Giggs and Krol v Eyzaguirre?

I honestly can't believe he's went the whole game without being mentioned by anyone but me. Just look at Cutch's profile of him - even the manager doesn't know what his credentials are! Everything I read about him says he was very attacking, some even calling him a wide midfielder - perhaps he's somehow dealing with Giggs but Krol too? He's getting destroyed. Charles pulls out wide to help him out and that leaves Eusébio open.

Who will Cutch take if he wins?
 
My mistake, I haven't been following it from the start, are they only allowed a certain number of players from each club?

Nationality rule. One player from one nation.
 
Most just disregard the defense. I mean, Baresi - Tresor - Krol - Brehme is maybe the best defense on this draft. That Hierro - Charles - Santos - Eyzaguirre is really a class below.

Cutch preferential on well-known players in midfield and attack win him the game. Still an excellent set of players, though.
 
Do people think Krol is overlooked because he doesn't have a very flashy name, so in some ways he's just as good as McGrain or Eyzaguirre there? I could've went for Schmikes or something...
 
I don't think anyone has an issue with Krol. The ones who have made remarks about your defense have mainly targeted Brehme playing on the right against Best and Santos, and that is probably going to be very dangerous for you. I think that flank is troubling you more than Giggs and Krol is troubling him, as Giggs would focus more on the creative scheme of things which can be controlled but Best certainly needs to be double marked for you having any chance of controlling him. I'd agree with the people who say that you are inviting a bit of trouble from that side.
 
I think Santos would have trouble himself defending against Matthews, before thinking going forward. So it's a matter of who's going to do more damage: Best against Brehme, or Matthews vs Santos on that side of field.
 
Brwned has been rather harsh on Baggio, Baggio will not dominate proceedings anyway near the level of Di Stefano but he is the type of magical player who can produce a match-winning moment with a flash of brilliance. I do agree with Brwned though that he has the upper hand in centre midfield. Figo tucking in can mitigate that somewhat but that could raise another problem - Ezyaguirre is the most questionable player on the pitch, I would favour Giggs one on one against him, let alone Krol doubling up. On the other flank though, the combination of Best and N Santos is fascinating. Brehme is not on his usual flank but with his ambidexterity and intelligence, I do not see that as a big issue. People on here have justly asked questions of Matthews in terms of his defensive contributions but seeing that Santos does not have a speed advantage over Matthews, I do not think that Santos would venture forward too much. Best does not need that extra help though, he can turn Brehme inside out on his own. Brwned's team is set up fabulously, a strong balanced spine running through from Baresi to Falcao to Di Stefano to Eusebio. Cutch's trumpcards are really in his marvelous match-winners, from Best to Baggio and Van Basten. Tasty match and rather hard to decide. Going by player ratings, Brwned gets my vote by the slightest of margins.

Rough ratings
Mazurkiewicz - 7.5
Brehme - 7.5
Krol - 8
Tresor - 7.5
Baresi - 9
Keane - 8
Falcao - 8.5
Di Stefano - 9.5
Giggs - 8
Matthews - 8.5
Eusebio - 9
Total - 91

Kahn - 8
N Santos - 8
Hierro - 7.5
Charles (as CB) - 8.5
Eyzaguirre - 7
Redondo - 8
Edwards - 8.5
Figo - 8.5
Best - 9
Baggio - 8.5
Van Basten - 9
Total - 90.5
 
There are question marks over Eyzaguirre and Baggio as a No.10 in such a stellar team. Brwned has no such issues especially at the back.
 
Giggs and Krol v Eyzaguirre?

I honestly can't believe he's went the whole game without being mentioned by anyone but me.

That's the difficulty with relative unknowns. I know that on the other flank Santos and Best would double up on Brehme, Matthews wouldn't track back, and he is going to turn you inside out all game. And when Best has turned you inside out you are fecked, you can get away with it a few times in a game, not consistently.

Giggs and Krol are a level below his pair, as is Eyzaguirre below Brehme. It makes it hard that we know little of Eyzaguirre but Chileans rave about him and would consistently put him in a Top 5 of Chilean players ever, as an attacking fullback, mind, and Chile is not the deepest talent pool either. All in all, everything indicates he can't just be summarily dismissed. The clincher for me though is that I don't see Giggs anywhere near as devastating as Best once he gets past Eyzaguirre.
 
Was out at a meeting all morning there so good to come back in to see this result. Seemed to always be about 4 votes in it so luckily it didnt get too nervy.

Thanks for the votes. Brwned was a formidable opponent who assembled a superb side, so this is a good win. 2 very evenly matched sides i feel. Ultimately i think George Best has probably just about made the difference.

Lads, who the hell should i take off Brwned? Di Stefano is probably a no brainer, even though i'd be sad to lose Redondo for the balance he gives. Who then? Baresi? Tresor maybe at right back? Not gonna be simple.
 
Probably De Stefano with either Keane or Baresi would be my pick.
 
Congrats. Based on the feedback, I'd definitely go Di Stéfano. That leaves either Keane in or Tigana back on to occupy Redondo's place. If Tigana, then Tresor is ruled out. Di Stefano and Keane/Baresi, once you know who you are playing next it will be clearer.

Manic as it sounds (strongest sides so far), I fancied the idea of meeting either of you in the semi if I get through. Considering it's only one pre-final pick, you can't go wrong with George :drool:
 
Di Stefano and Baresi seem to be the picks. Arguably you'll lose a little in central midfield, but Baresi will lift the back-line which is a wee bit weak at this stage of the tournament.
 
Congrats. Based on the feedback, I'd definitely go Di Stéfano. That leaves either Keane in or Tigana back on to occupy Redondo's place. If Tigana, then Tresor is ruled out. Di Stefano and Keane/Baresi, once you know who you are playing next it will be clearer.

Manic as it sounds (strongest sides so far), I fancied the idea of meeting either of you in the semi if I get through. Considering it's only one pre-final pick, you can't go wrong with George :drool:

I hate the thought of touching any of my front 6 but can't not take Don Alfredo. Not sure if i can get through another game with the little known Eyzaguirre, we could have another Gary Kelly on our hands!
 
Di Stefano and Keane/Baresi for me to.

Di Stefano and Baresi seem to be the picks. Arguably you'll lose a little in central midfield, but Baresi will lift the back-line which is a wee bit weak at this stage of the tournament.

Is there any way i could have a front 6 of:


---------Van Basten-------

Best-------Baggio------Figo

----Di Stefano--Edwards----

Or am i not getting the best of Di Stefano there? I ask because i dont actually know him as well as i could
 
Is it draw before picks? Because that may determine if you want to ditch the Chilean or not.
 
I think if you are picking Di Stefano you need to pick Keane as well, though he can play a deep role his best utilization would surely be as an AM, you would particularly lose a lot of his goal scoring.

The other option could be Baresi and Best.
 
I think if you are picking Di Stefano you need to pick Keane as well, though he can play a deep role his best utilization would surely be as an AM, you would particularly lose a lot of his goal scoring.

The other option could be Baresi and Best.

Does Keane improve my side at all? Surely Edwards-Tigana would do the job if Di Stefano moved up?
 
Does Keane improve my side at all? Surely Edwards-Tigana would do the job if Di Stefano moved up?

I like that. For me Di Stefano, Edwards, Tigana would do the job! Getting Baresi would be nice for you.
 
I like that. For me Di Stefano, Edwards, Tigana would do the job! Getting Baresi would be nice for you.

Baresi could also enable Hierro to push up if he was a better option than Tigana. I think Hierro's an amazing player but not sure its fully transmitted to the caf for some reason. Many people must just remember him when he was past his best for Bolton
 
I'd side with Hierro over Tigana for his passing range and style of play being more complementary to Edwards. Tigana's doing much of the same stuff Edwards is. Baresi's too good to turn down and for me Baggio needs replacing at this level.
 
Baresi could also enable Hierro to push up if he was a better option than Tigana. I think Hierro's an amazing player but not sure its fully transmitted to the caf for some reason. Many people must just remember him when he was past his best for Bolton

Yes Hierro is a classy player, but as you say not sure how people rate him. But with that said I am not sure how everyone rate Tigana either.
 
Is it draw before picks? Because that may determine if you want to ditch the Chilean or not.

Draw before the picks. Can't see how he can ditch the Chilean though unless he does something very weird at RB, Brehme is a no-go with two German keepers :lol:
 
I'd side with Hierro over Tigana for his passing range and style of play being more complementary to Edwards. Tigana's doing much of the same stuff Edwards is. Baresi's too good to turn down and for me Baggio needs replacing at this level.

I'm losing a lot of sex from the team taking out Redondo and Baggio, hopefully that doesn't cost me, but maybe its time to reign this team in a bit. A bit too much emphasis on attacking perhaps
 
Is there any way i could have a front 6 of:


---------Van Basten-------

Best-------Baggio------Figo

----Di Stefano--Edwards----

Or am i not getting the best of Di Stefano there? I ask because i dont actually know him as well as i could

Doesn't make any sense to me. He could play there sure, not as effectively, but it doesn't remove the "Baggio problem" and all you are doing is removing Redondo to play someone out of position.

Tigana should be fine, Baresi improves your defence more than Keane your midfield.
 
I'd side with Hierro over Tigana for his passing range and style of play being more complementary to Edwards. Tigana's doing much of the same stuff Edwards is. Baresi's too good to turn down and for me Baggio needs replacing at this level.

I would be supportive of Hierro in midfield, he was fantastic there in the early '90s combining defensive and physical robustness with passing, vision and goal threat.

Draw before the picks. Can't see how he can ditch the Chilean though unless he does something very weird at RB, Brehme is a no-go with two German keepers :lol:

Everybody seems to be scrabbling around for a competent right-back at this stage.
 
Baresi could also enable Hierro to push up if he was a better option than Tigana. I think Hierro's an amazing player but not sure its fully transmitted to the caf for some reason. Many people must just remember him when he was past his best for Bolton

Something that afflicts several players, e.g. Weah at Chelsea/City.
 
Yes Hierro is a classy player, but as you say not sure how people rate him. But with that said I am not sure how everyone rate Tigana either.

Tigana's got a bit of Euro '84 va va voom about him, Hierro's classy although I suspect his reputation's been damaged through his lack of pace at centre-half towards the end of his career. Cutch is likely to lose the centre of midfield either way given the calibre of the opposition, but it didn't do him any harm here.
 
I would be supportive of Hierro in midfield, he was fantastic there in the early '90s combining defensive and physical robustness with passing, vision and goal threat.

I guarantee many will only remember him as a defender and assume i'm playing him out of position. That would certainly be a robust centre midfield with him and Edwards.


Everybody seems to be scrabbling around for a competent right-back at this stage.

its a nightmare. Theres so few
 
Everybody seems to be scrabbling around for a competent right-back at this stage.

While I have two :D

It was the position most glaringly short, more so than LB. There was pretty much three Brazilians, which are an arse to have at this stage, an Argie who could also be an arse, and Thuram who is not attacking enough. Mind you, at this stage it's the defending bit that people would be most concerned about!