I can't see past Best, Figo, Redondo, Edwards, Baggio and van Basten.
All-time Fantasy Draft - Brwned v Cutch
- Thread starter Brwned
- Start date
Yet you can see past Falcão, Keane, Di Stéfano, Giggs, Matthews and Eusébio...do you really see a big gap in quality between them?
Knew I should never have went with Falcão. Never been revered in the UK in the same way Redondo is.
Knew I should never have went with Falcão. Never been revered in the UK in the same way Redondo is.
Best and Edwards are always going to excite United fans and rightly so.
I do not see a massive gap but think Cutch's lot arouse me that little bit more. With yours I would still get it up but might need half a Viagra to last 90 minutes.
I think it's a little unfair that Keane excites people less than Edwards.
I went for Brwned. His CM partnership compliments each other pefectly. Keane and Falcao are certainly two of the best to have ever played that position, as is Redondo, though personally I wouldn't rate him higher than Falcao or Keane. Edwards is a ticky one. Nobody has ever seem much of him, tragically. We've all heard how good he would/could have been but I'm not even sure what his best postion was.
Moving on to the forward line. Bar Best, both of these cancel each other out in terms of creativity, attacking threat and finishing. If anything, Figo is the weak link in there, for me, in terms of tracking back and helping out defensively, more of a luxury player IMO.
Defensively, Brwned is better, no question.
Cutch has an amazing team, when you rhyme off the names but I think Brwned's team works better together as a unit.
Moving on to the forward line. Bar Best, both of these cancel each other out in terms of creativity, attacking threat and finishing. If anything, Figo is the weak link in there, for me, in terms of tracking back and helping out defensively, more of a luxury player IMO.
Defensively, Brwned is better, no question.
Cutch has an amazing team, when you rhyme off the names but I think Brwned's team works better together as a unit.
Don't agree with your notes on Baggio at all, Brwned. Far from a luxury player and 94 was vintage stuff by him. Di Stefano may be on a different level to him but then Best is on another level to Giggs as well.
Edwards too may have gained some sort of mythical status but he was after all the youngest player to play for England for a long time and did also finish 3rd in European player of the year award when he was just 21. Taking in faith other testimonies of players and managers around that time, he is the best midfielder on the park.
Edwards too may have gained some sort of mythical status but he was after all the youngest player to play for England for a long time and did also finish 3rd in European player of the year award when he was just 21. Taking in faith other testimonies of players and managers around that time, he is the best midfielder on the park.
Well, Di Stefano's the best midfielder on the park and showed it v Edwards and co. in the European Cup. I think that was the same year Edwards was in the Ballon d'Or.
Exactly, that's vintage Baggio and look how little he did in the group stages and what the press were saying about him then.
Exactly, that's vintage Baggio and look how little he did in the group stages and what the press were saying about him then.
Tipping point is Eusebio for me, largely forgotten about compared to other greats, not a big fan of Baggio either.
Let's use Charlton's praise for Charles into proof of Eusebio's standing:
Jack Charlton: "John Charles was a team unto himself. People often say to me, 'Who was the best player you ever saw in your life?', and I answer,probably Eusebio, di Stefano,Cruyff,Peleor ourBob - but the most effective player I ever saw, the one that made the most difference to the performance of the whole team, was, without question, John Charles. He could defend, he could play in midfield, he could attack. He was quick, he was a very, very strong runner, and he was the greatest header of the ball I ever saw''
I have two, Cutch has none...
Jack Charlton: "John Charles was a team unto himself. People often say to me, 'Who was the best player you ever saw in your life?', and I answer,probably Eusebio, di Stefano,Cruyff,Peleor ourBob - but the most effective player I ever saw, the one that made the most difference to the performance of the whole team, was, without question, John Charles. He could defend, he could play in midfield, he could attack. He was quick, he was a very, very strong runner, and he was the greatest header of the ball I ever saw''
I have two, Cutch has none...
I barely get involved in these, but by focusing on the midfield duel I think voters maybe ignoring a key advantage for Cutch.
That is Brehme having to deal with Best and Nilton bombing forward. Matthews wasn't known to track back and leaving it 2 v 1 is a weakness. With Van Basten he has a deadly forward who can score if those two counter attack. Even if Brwned wins in midfield those two give Cutch the chance to win on the counter.
I'm not going to vote because I don't follow these closely enough and it wouldn't be fair on the managers who put a great deal of effort in. But I felt I should point this out having briefly seen the lineups and skimmed the thread.
That is Brehme having to deal with Best and Nilton bombing forward. Matthews wasn't known to track back and leaving it 2 v 1 is a weakness. With Van Basten he has a deadly forward who can score if those two counter attack. Even if Brwned wins in midfield those two give Cutch the chance to win on the counter.
I'm not going to vote because I don't follow these closely enough and it wouldn't be fair on the managers who put a great deal of effort in. But I felt I should point this out having briefly seen the lineups and skimmed the thread.
None what? Best has been hailed by many as being on the same level as Maradona or Pele. Edwards too according to those who played with him and saw him, was going to be an all time great. Van Basten is a three time European player of the year winner!
Surely Cutch has one seeing as the entire quote is about Charles?
These threads can be as funny as they are ridiculous. Baggio's '94 World Cup is trying to be used against him with a Malaysian newspaper as source material? 
Frankly though while I rate Brwned's midfield higher, let's not overdo it by implying things like Baggio would hardly be in the game or anything close to that even if Keane controlled him once. By that logic Keane got royally schooled by Redondo in the 2000 Champions League but it doesn't mean that overrides their whole career.
The two areas I'm mostly seeing goals from are:
Agree with this, I'm not sure who the three keepers Brwned would consider to have been better during that period. And although Maier is probably the strongest option, Kahn's a good fit in this game.
- Eusebio's pace. Hierro was never the fastest.
- Charles' and Van Basten's ability in the air.
Agree with this, I'm not sure who the three keepers Brwned would consider to have been better during that period. And although Maier is probably the strongest option, Kahn's a good fit in this game.
Please tell me he didnt say that. Kahns individual honours:
Surely its not up for debate that he was the best keeper in the world from 98-02
Definately don't see this as a 3 v 2 in centre midfield like some are saying. I think its extremely unlikely Keane (who personally i think is a bit out of his depth here) will make his presence felt in this game as a central midfielder, as he's basically gonna be taken out of this game to serve as a man marker. With Best, Baggio and Figo all interchanging, and all attacking the space infront of the back 4, Keane will be far too preoccupied trying to marshal against this operation to become enbroiled in the centre midfield battle. If i had 2 wingers like Brwned has that'll mainly hug the touchline it might be a different story, but not with the way i've lined Best, Baggio and Figo out here. All 3 roaming across the park and involved inturns in central areas. The middle of the park will be Redondo and Edwards v Falcao and Di Stefano.
I'll leave you guys to it and play my vote after the England game probably. So far I'm still siding with Brwned, de Stefano vs Baggio and better protection for his full backs is the reason.
These threads can be as funny as they are ridiculous. Baggio's '94 World Cup is trying to be used against him with a Malaysian newspaper as source material?
I've always thought Baggio's '94 WC is overrated because he turned it on in key moments, he didn't dominate from start to finish like Maradona at all. Even Eusebio dominated more.
Also, "Reuters".
I'll leave you guys to it and play my vote after the England game probably. So far I'm still siding with Brwned, de Stefano vs Baggio and better protection for his full backs is the reason.
Forget about Di Stefano v Baggio and compare Edwards v Keane, Best v Giggs, Nilton Santos v Krol, Charles v Krol and Kahn v his keeper
.Giggs might give his fullback protection but theres no way Matthews will. For me, The Encyclopaedia doesn't need any protection, and i'm sure Figo will put in a decent shift on the right.
Forget about Di Stefano v Baggio and compare Edwards v Keane, Best v Giggs, Nilton Santos v Krol, Charles v Krol and Kahn v his keeper
Giggs might give his fullback protection but theres no way Matthews will. For me, The Encyclopaedia doesn't need any protection, and i'm sure Figo will put in a decent shift on the right.
Di Stefano or Baggio? Clearly the don.
Edwards vs Keane? Hard to say but everything suggest Edwards.
Best vs Giggs? Only one winner here!
Nilton Santos vs Krol? Very very close, can't call it. If I had to choose one to be on my team I think I may side with Krol to be honest.
Charles vs Krol? Strange match up....
Your keeper or his keeper? Your one on the bench! But yeah, Kahn.
To be honest it's very close all over the pitch. The biggest disparities in talent are Giggs/Best and De Stefano/Baggio. With Giggs there are positives tactically however, with Baggio I can't really see them.
Apologies, i meant Tresor!
In that case... Charles? I can't really say, most of the time I saw him play as a CF!
The joys of having complete footballers. In Edwards and Charles i've probably got the most complete all round players Britain have ever produced. They could probably play any position on the park. Not a single weakness. In addition Van Basten is the complete centre forward. Nilton Santos is the daddy of all attacking fullbacks. Hierro was a defender, creator and goalscorer. Redondo is the complete modern day midfielder. I havn't even mentioned George Best.
In work at the mo but we all know how you can't take individual, impartial testimonies as proof. Cesc's Mullet said Koscielny "was never beaten 1v1" according to reports from Ligue 2 observers - and of course no-one could say otherwise at the time as no-one saw him. Then he got skinned in his first game.
Duncan Edwards was a remarkable player, that much is clear. As an individual he reached heights Keane never did even in his short career. I'm just saying the mythology of a player like him shouldn't count for any more than people saying Robson was the greatest United player of the last 30 years - it's a personal opinion based on qualities they value, it's not necessarily based on their overall contribution and it's certainly not proof. Valuable all the same of course.
Says the boy that regularly quotes Gio and Peterstorey
Nah, i agree, i was just readin up on some munich tributes today and thought i could find a space for one in here first chance i could get!
My bad on the source, apologies. No disagreement on him not dominating from start to finish, the point is the way he performed when it mattered most, carrying Italy to the final & saving Sacchi's bacon. How can that be a bad thing? Him not performing in a couple of group games can be attributed to the host of injuries he carried into the tournament & Sacchi not being able to cope with having two flair players in the same team. Signori helped get them through the groups & then Baggio through the knockouts.
I suppose it depends how badly you want my vote?!
That's a cracking idea! Turning Brwned into a football highlights editor. Can I get some for my team as well?
I agree.
None who Jack Charlton - a man who of course saw Edwards and Best play - would think of when naming the best players he's seen. Eusébio, Di Stéfano - they roll off the tongue when asked that question.
I didn't say that during that four year period anyone was better than him, I said that over the last 20 years he won't even be considered to be the 3rd best...although perhaps I'm wrong on that one. I don't see anyone putting him above Buffon or Schmeichel but maybe he fits in just after.
Forget about Di Stefano v Baggio and compare Edwards v Keane, Best v Giggs, Nilton Santos v Krol, Charles v Krol and Kahn v his keeper
Giggs might give his fullback protection but theres no way Matthews will. For me, The Encyclopaedia doesn't need any protection, and i'm sure Figo will put in a decent shift on the right.
Should never have told you to pick N. Santos. You got any good stories about him to share with us?
Says the boy that regularly quotes Gio and Peterstorey
Nah, i agree, i was just readin up on some munich tributes today and thought i could find a space for one in here first chance i could get!
Obviously I hate the idea of even trying to downplay Edwards' influence in any way, particularly on today of all days. I've seen him once and all the things said about him were apparent then - powerhouse midfielder but versatile enough to comfortably slot back into defence when needed to, classy customer on the ball and used it very well, a real leader...you couldn't see a flaw.
My point was while these legends for Edwards justifiably create a buzz of excitement when seeing him on the team, I think the same should apply to Keane or Robbo. They should and do have their legends - just because they don't possess the same mystique shouldn't dull the excitement in any way. They're heroes of their generation too. Certainly I don't think it's fair to say either of those two look out of place in a lineup like this.
It's absolutely not a bad thing, and in the context of this game he's just been playing knockout rounds which again counts in his favour, I just think the "closest thing to a one-man team since Maradona in '86" is very overblown. He was brilliant, but not breathtakingly good. Eusébio was, Pelé was, Cruyff, Beckenbauer and Platini were...each of them played in excellent teams with perhaps Portugal '66 being at the same level as Italy '94, but they were consistently brilliant throughout and, to me, that's much more important/impressive. The only reason I would use '94 as a criticism is for the reasons outlined in that article and something that was reiterated throughout his career and backed up by his somewhat nomadic career - he was deemed a luxury player by many, Sacchi being the most notable one. I'm no fan of Marcotti but he's got a reasonably in-depth knowledge of Italian football at the time and here's what he said...
Probably not enough! We'll see how desperate I am in 12 hours time...
I always thought, United fans will tell you that Schmeichel is the best of the last 20 years, Bayern fans will say Kahn, Juventus fans Buffon and you probably find more than enough Real fans who will bring Casillas to the table. I never rated Casillas that high, but I don't think there's much between Kahn, Buffon and Schmeichel. Kahn at his peak (98-02) was simply outstanding, I don't believe that Schmeichel or Buffon performed over a comparable time on a higher level.
Should never have told you to pick N. Santos. You got any good stories about him to share with us?
i'm still not convinced Roberto Carlos wouldn't have been a more popular pick to the casual voter but it was only right that common sense should prevail in the end.You're a bit of an encyclopaedia yourself so theres no chance that i know anything you won't have heard about Santos. Thats been the best thing about this draft actually is finding out more about these lesser known legends of the game.
I'd say that's fair. I'm personally a fan of Buffon's style above all so I'd have him on top but you can't really argue against one-man-defences like Kahn and Schmeichel.
You're a bit of an encyclopaedia yourself so theres no chance that i know anything you won't have heard about Santos. Thats been the best thing about this draft actually is finding out more about these lesser known legends of the game.
Nah, I'd be ripping into Roberto Carlos all day long otherwise! "Defender" my arse. I actually don't know a huge amount about Santos, I know more about Djalma than Nilton to be honest...I just know Nilton was exceptional. I don't even have a clear picture of his playing style and every now and then I forget if he was right or left-footed, I just remember thinking he looked outstanding every time I saw him.
Was reading that Leeds 5-page biography of John Charles you gave a link to (thinking I'd be pairing him up with Mr. Baresi!) and it's one of the best ones I've read about any player. Great stuff. I knew he had the Serie A greatest foreign player stuff but I had no idea he was considered one of the best players in the world - as backed up by him moving for a World Record fee - or that he scored 38 goals in 40 games in his one season of English First division football...it's almost a waste you're playing him in defence.
It has been great for a bit of discussion about some of the more obscure names. I can't see any way we'd have been talking about John Charles anywhere else on the forum.
Was reading that Leeds 5-page biography of John Charles you gave a link to (thinking I'd be pairing him up with Mr. Baresi!) and it's one of the best ones I've read about any player. Great stuff. I knew he had the Serie A greatest foreign player stuff but I had no idea he was considered one of the best players in the world - as backed up by him moving for a World Record fee - or that he scored 38 goals in 40 games in his one season of English First division football...it's almost a waste you're playing him in defence.
It has been great for a bit of discussion about some of the more obscure names. I can't see any way we'd have been talking about John Charles anywhere else on the forum.
The stuff you find on the net about John Charles is fascinating. Unbelievable how loved he is in Italy, moreso even than in Britain i'd say. You think of all the foreign players to play there and all the legends that Juventus have had and Charles seems to somehow eclipse them. Personally i'm not sure if i even heard of him before he died in 2004 but remember after a documentary really sitting up and taking notice.
He's a must for you if you go through i would say. Handy nationality though you have Giggs admittedly, and would form a dream partnership with Baresi.
I'm still flip-flopping like crazy on this one. I idolised Baggio when I was younger, so I can't say I'm enjoying reading him being identified as a potential weak link for Cutch even though it has some validity!
He's only a weak link in comparison to Di Stefano in fairness.
This one is so close, probably the closest so far. Unlucky to draw each other really.