All-time Fantasy Draft - Brwned v Cutch

[Brwned]

Key tactical issues - highlights

• Key matchups:
  Di Stéfano v Edwards - Di Stéfano scored against Edwards' Manchester United in the '57 European Cup as Madrid won 5-3 on aggregate.
  Keane v Baggio - Keane in his first World Cup was given the task of nullifying Italy's best threat in 1994, Roberto Baggio, and excelled in an unforgettable 1-0 win which almost knocked Baggio's Italy out of the tournament altogether. Keane will not be man-marking Baggio in this game as Baggio is not their key player and Keane has a much better supporting cast which frees him up to get involved.
• Over-reliance on a luxury player - Baggio is the link-man between midfield and attack, nullify him - as Keane did in the 1994 World Cup in a 1-0 win - and the opposition is forced to completely re-think their build-up strategy
• Lack of midfield control - Baggio will be contributing little defensively unlike my #10 Di Stéfano, often referred to as the most complete player to play the game. This leaves Redondo and Edwards with too much work to do up against Keane, Falcao and Di Stéfano and inevitably my midfield will wrestle control of the game
• Big-game goalscorers - Di Stéfano scored in the QF, SF and final of every European Cup between 1955-60, including a hat-trick in the 1960 European Cup final. Eusébio scored in consecutive European Cup finals in 1961 and 1962, scored in every round of the 1966 World Cup and scored a hat-trick off the bench against Pelé's Santos in one of his earliest Benfica appearances.
• Baresi v van Basten - who comes out on top? Baggio will leave van Basten isolated up against the powerhouse that is Marius Trésor and the masterful organiser that is Franco Baresi. Ask Sacchi who comes out on top in this scenario:
  

  I took five players: Giovanni Galli in goal, Tassotti, Maldini, Costacurta and Baresi. They had ten players: Gullit, van Basten, Rijkaard, Virdis, Evani, Ancelotti, Colombo, Donadoni, Lanitignotti, and Mannari. They had 15 minutes to score against my five players, the only rule was that if we won possession or they lost the ball, they had to start over from 10 metres inside their own half. I did this all the time and they never scored. Not once."

Key tactical issues - full version

Spoiler

1. Over-reliance on a luxury player
   If you look past the sumptuous proposition of a Baggio-van Basten partnership you'll see the Italian is the only link-man between midfield and attack - nullify that and you go a long way to forcing the opposition to completely re-think their build-up strategy.
   
   Some will tell you that Baggio in '94 almost replicated Maradona's feat in '86 of dragging a good team to the World Cup final - he didn't. In the group stages Baggio contributed very little to the sides and was deemed a "luxury player" even during USA '94*. In Italy's opening game they lost 1-0 v Ireland and two performances stood out that day - veteran McGrath outshining Baresi and a young Roy Keane, fresh off the back of a league and couple double in his first season at United, completely nullifying Roberto Baggio. That was Roberto Baggio at the peak of his powers so just imagine how much he'd enjoy facing Keano at his peak.
   
   If you look closely at the Baggio-van Basten partnership it raises questions too. The Dutch targetman's greatest success came alongside Ruud Gullit - a tactically versatile, hard-working attacking midfielder with bundles of pace and power. Baggio is the complete opposite, in fact part of the reason Juventus sold him to Milan was because he lacked so many of those tactically important qualities - and it was a similar story for the majority of his career at the top level*. Likewise if you look at Baggio's peak you see him playing with a pacey, hard-working predator up front in the form of Vialli, Signori, Schillaci & co. Can that attacking duo work without the pacey partner they thrived off playing alongside?
   *
   Spoiler

   

   
2. Lack of midfield control
   
   Defensively Baggio is contributing nothing, Edwards and Redondo are doing all the midfield work on their own purely to provide a platform for Baggio. Contrast that with my trio of Falcão-Keane-Di Stéfano which is a much more collaborative effort who are comfortable in all facets of midfield play, and you can see my midfield has the upper-hand.
   
   While Keane is relishing the reunion with Baggio, Edwards is dreading coming up against Di Stéfano again. Last time they met the Argentine dominated the home leg, scoring in the process to help engineer a 5-3 win on aggregate to put Edwards' Manchester United out in the semi-finals as Madrid marched on to another European Cup - with Di Stéfano naturally scoring the opening goal in the final. This leaves Redondo to deal with Falcão and Keane all on his own - magnificent player that he was, he's not capable of that.
   
   Thus my midfield is in control of the game and providing a consistent supply of top-quality passing to my perfectly-balanced front three, and the goals will surely flow.
   
   
3. Big-game goalscorers
   
   Di Stéfano - scored in the quarter-final, semi-final and final of European Cup for 5 seasons in a row (1955-60); scored Madrid's first goal in 4 of their first 5 European Cup wins including a hat-trick in the 1960 EC final. 307 goals in 396 appearances for Real Madrid.
   
   Eusébio - scored in consecutive European cup finals (1961-62); scored in every round of World Cup '66; scored a hat-trick on his debut, a hat-trick off the bench v Pele's Santos and a double v Di Stéfano's Madrid in his first European cup final - all under the age of 21. 473 goals in 440 appearances for Benfica.
   
   Both were the key players for club and country and consistently shone on the biggest stage. Contrast that to van Basten who was frequently criticised for his below-par international performances or Baggio who was seemed expendable by Juventus, Inter and Milan - can they really compete? Is Baggio in that class?
   
   
4. Baresi v van Basten
   
   Their main source of goals up against my defensive leader - who will come out on top? Ask Sacchi, the man who helped them develop into two of the greatest players in their position:
   

   I took five players: Giovanni Galli in goal, Tassotti, Maldini, Costacurta and Baresi. They had ten players: Gullit, van Basten, Rijkaard, Virdis, Evani, Ancelotti, Colombo, Donadoni, Lanitignotti, and Mannari. They had 15 minutes to score against my five players, the only rule was that if we won possession or they lost the ball, they had to start over from 10 metres inside their own half. I did this all the time and they never scored. Not once."

   This was Sacchi's way of showing that organisation is key, even more so than individual ability. Baresi is the greatest defensive organiser in the history of the game. Baggio is the player Sacchi sees as an "individual", one who does not participate in organised team play but rather plays the game as he sees fit. This makes for great watching but it leaves van Basten isolated up against the powerhouse that is Marius Trésor, never mind his old ally Franco Baresi.
   
   In that partnership you have two tremendous defensive leaders, two great ball-players but also two liberos who are equally comfortable in a flat back four as pure centre backs - unlike Scirea, Beckenbauer, Figueroa & co. Trésor was a great sweeper but possessed the physique to excel as a stopper or even a right-back as and when needed. "Il fantastico Marius Trésor" and "Il genio Franco Baresi" in the words of the Italian commentators - they know how tough San Marco would find it here.

Full Player Profiles Part 1 and 2

Team Brwned

Subs: McGrain, Germano, Sárosi, Haan, Alberto Spencer.

Team Cutch

Subs: Maier, Robson, Tigana, Hamrin, Shevchenko.​

Team
- The 3 greatest all round, iconic footballers ever to come out of the British Isles.
- 3 modern day all conquering Real Madrid greats.
- The 2 most complete and feared forwards in the world in the late 80s/early 90s.
- 2 of the greatest South American fullbacks, including a leftback considered the best of all time.
- An angry german bloke.

Formation
4-2-3-1

Instructions
- Kahn will be encouraged to come off his line quickly to guard against any ball over the top to Eusebio.
- Charles will attack everything in the air. Hierro will cover, and be encouraged to play the ball out from the back. He’ll also try to mix it up launching the quick counter attack, showing off his phenomenal range of passing.
- Nilton Santos will be looking to bomb forward to form an outrageous partnership down the left hand side with Best.
- Eyzaguirre will keep a close eye on Giggs. He’ll also be encouraged to get forward when he can in support of Figo.
- Redondo and Edwards will relish the battle in midfield. Redondo will be the go to man, the fulcrum in midfield. Both will generally sit but also take turns to get forward. Redondo showing his classy interplay, and Edwards his brute force. Edwards will be encouraged to unleash his rocket of a shot anywhere within 30 yards.
- I am lucky to possess 3 outstanding ball carriers slightly in advance of the 2 rocks in midfield. Best, Baggio and Figo will all have the key to unlock Brwneds defence with all 3 in tandem pinning his team on the back foot. Each will be encouraged to interchange dragging their markers all over the place. Each may also drop deeper than usual to collect the ball if required.
- Upfront the ultimate no.9 Marco Van Basten will be a great focal point for all attacking play, occupying both centre halfs creating space for others. The link up play between the front 6 in this free flowing cohesive unit, and the fullbacks will be Total Football.
- Set pieces are certainly expected to reap rewards. Charles will win everything in the air while Van Basten and Hierro will also be lurking. Brwned has a team of midgets so theres a bagful to be had here. Free kicks will also be extremely dangerous with Baggio and Hierro fighting over them.


Subs
S Maier
B Robson
J Tigana
K Hamrin
A Shevchenko


https://www.redcafe.net/12892790-post2427.html

 

[Cutch]

Hardly an over reliance on a luxury player! Baggio will likely be the creative hub but will be superbly assisted by the classy Redondo, and the strong running of Edwards, Best, Figo and Santos. Baggio will drag Keane out all round the park thus creating space for my strong runners from midfield, and removing him from the battle in the middle of the park, so there'll be no outnumbering as suggested. Bit of a waste of Keanes talents btw, restricting him to the sort of role he only did later in his career. Certainly not getting much out of him going forward.

Not sure if Keane or Giggs really stack up against Edwards and Best by the way, among the very very best. Also dont think Van Basten will be overly worried about Baresi and Tresor, given the strong supporting cast i've got. Just need to get good crosses into that box and Van Basten (and Charles at corners) will get a bagful. Brwneds side looks extremely small and lightweight!

 

[Moby]

Keane v Baggio - Keane in his first World Cup was given the task of nullifying Italy's best threat in 1994, Roberto Baggio, and excelled in an unforgettable 1-0 win which almost knocked Baggio's Italy out of the tournament altogether.

Wasn't it Paul McGrath who was more responsible for nullifying Baggio rather than Keane?

 

[Brwned]

Cutch, I've voted for myself to save me the effort of clicking on the votes every time.

It's clear we're both going for a wingplay-based side but in entirely different ways. Cutch is going for a modern, sophisticated, free-flowing style while I'm going for the traditional, simple, direct style. Is that cohesiveness and fluidity really possible in such a mix and match team? I reckon not, which is why I've went for a setup that every one of my front four played in.

Giggs is a throwback to the good old days when hip swivels and superb balance were the desired traits in a winger rather than the step-overs, roulettes and outside-of-the-foot crossing that is applauded by so many today. Stanley Matthews is of course widely credited with inventing that style of wingplay in the British Isles. They'll simply beat their men with superb pace and balance and whip it in for Eusébio and Di Stéfano to tap in. Di Stéfano is well known for forging a superb partnership with Puskás but the player he linked up with most often was in fact Paco Gento, the speedy outside-left who is remarkably similar to Giggs in terms of style, longevity and trophies. Eusébio likewise had an outstanding partnership with the outside-left Simões. Both Madrid and Benfica have a history of outstanding wingers and that first started with Madrid's team in the 50s and Benfica's team in the 60s, with Di Stéfano and Eusébio gobbling up the endless supply of crosses.

Best and Figo are an outstanding wing-partnership, better than mine, but they're also given much more responsibility in attack. With his free-roaming setup he'll be expecting everyone to be on top of their game, completely in sync - if Baggio's being taken care of then they'll be the ones tasked with providing van Basten with top-quality passing. Both were excellent passers in comparison to other wingers, for example my own, but when tasked with the creative burden of a #10 up against Baresi and Trésor through the middle...you have to wonder how successful that will be.

My route to goal is much simpler: win the midfield battle, give the ball to Giggs and Matthews to isolate his two attacking fullbacks 1v1, put the ball in the box and watch Eusébio put it away. This attacking style is completely in keeping with Eusébio's view of the game: "I marked the defence. They thought they were marking me but I was a lot quicker than any of them. When Simões got the ball, he knew where I'd go. Play the ball into space and I'd run onto it and score." - Eusébio (~11:35)

 

[Cutch]

Brwned has Keane basically reduced to a man marking role here. When he's not trying to contain Baggio he'll have Best and Figo (all interchanging remember) to worry about. This will not be a 3 v 2 battle in the middle of the park. It will be the 2 powerhouses Edwards and Redondo against Falcao, and Di Stefano who'll have been brought back to stop his side from being seriously overrun. As soon as i get the ball wide he's then in all sorts of trouble.

 

[Brwned]

Brwneds side looks extremely small and lightweight!

Nonsense! My midfield three were all great in the air, Eusébio of course had a fantastic leap and Trésor is the one marshalling it all. Figo, Best, Baggio, Ezyaguirre and N. Santos all offer sweet feck all in the air which sees us matching up 5 v 5 at the very least.

Wasn't it Paul McGrath who was more responsible for nullifying Baggio rather than Keane?

Not at all, McGrath took Signori completely out of the game and had some highlight blocks/tackles on Baggio but Keane was the one marshalling his area and given a very clear task of looking after the little Italian genius.

 

[Cutch]

Nonsense! My midfield three were all great in the air, Eusébio of course had a fantastic leap and Trésor is the one marshalling it all. Figo, Best, Baggio, Ezyaguirre and N. Santos all offer sweet feck all in the air which sees us matching up 5 v 5 at the very least.

Falcao and Krol are your only players over 6 foot (only just). Your two centrehalfs are particularly small and i dont see who's goin to rival Van Basten in open play particularly and one of the best headers of all time Charles at corners/freekicks.

 

[Brwned]

Eusébio's a physical specimen himself and he's taking care of Charles. Will he win them all? No chance. He'll do enough to stop Charles from having it all his own way though. Trésor's fine with van Basten. It's not all about height - Rio and Vidic are the same height but Rio's not half as good at defending from corners.

 

[DanNistelrooy]

2 quality teams here. Cutch's front four is delightful, both midfields are brilliant but I think Brwned has the better defence. Very tough one

 

[Thisistheone]

Incredibly difficult to seperate. Baresi knowing Van Basten is a good point raised by Brwned.

Fascinating contest.

 

[Cutch]

2 quality teams here. Cutch's front four is delightful, both midfields are brilliant but I think Brwned has the better defence. Very tough one

I've certainly the better keeper, the best in the world between 98 and 02 as his countless individual awards will testify. Santos is unrivalled at fullback, and Charles was voted the best ever foreign player to play in Serie A. I'd give him the edge at rightback, and probably Baresi over Hierro, although Hierro is one of the most underrated players on the cafe for some reason. Phenomenal player and leader for Madrid.

 

[kps88]

Honestly, these teams two teams are so strong and evenly matched up it just comes down to your gut and personal preference. It's a shame they've drawn each other.

 

[Cutch]

Incredibly difficult to seperate. Baresi knowing Van Basten is a good point raised by Brwned.

Fascinating contest.

Even if Van Basten only did enough to occupy both Tresor and the covering Baresi i'd be happy enough as its the supporting cast that will then click into play. Best, Figo and Baggio will skin anyone repeatedly in a game and in this event they're goin to have pretty much a clear run at goal if his 2 centrehalfs are preoccupied with MVB. The onrushing Edwards could also avail of this space.

 

[Brwned]

I've certainly the better keeper, the best in the world between 98 and 02 as his countless individual awards will testify. Santos is unrivalled at fullback, and Charles was voted the best ever foreign player to play in Serie A. I'd give him the edge at rightback, and probably Baresi over Hierro, although Hierro is one of the most underrated players on the cafe for some reason. Phenomenal player and leader for Madrid.

You've got a keeper who made a shocking mistake in a World Cup final v a keeper with 5 clean sheets in 9 World Cup games in ’66 and ’70 and kept 6 clean sheets in 8 in the corresponding World Cup qualifiers. Lev Yashin called him his successor and yet somehow Kahn - not even the 3rd best keeper of the last two decades - is easily better? No chance. The best keeper in the match isn't even on the pitch.

And then of course at right back you've got a player that nobody knows. The only one on the pitch that's pretty much a complete unknown. And he's up against a player we all know better than anyone. It'll be interesting to see whose favour that works in actually. Are we too aware of Giggs' flaws and blissfully oblivious to Ezyaguirre's?

 

[Fergus' son]

Very very close.

I don't really like Baggio having to do so much of a midfield job personally, I would have gone with a less attacking option and allowed Best to flourish a bit more.

Cutch has the better keeper on the bench!

It seems like Redondo and Edwards will have so much to in the middle that they won't be able to cover thier full backs as much as they need them to, I'd back both Giggs and Matthews to have some joy (particularly with Best and Figo supposed to be helping out, not very defensive wingers) and provide good service for Eusebio who will score.

Brwneds team is the most cohesive in the game, all players know what to do, have done it before etc and tactically it looks very straightforward to implement.

The attacking talent that cutch has is great but I think he may have gone a little OTT, no doubt he wll attract most of the quick glance votes which makes me, as an ex manager, want to vote for Brwned as I can appreciate how hard it is to put together a team that is as cohesive and works as well as his.

Will leave it for a while to hear more from the managers however and see if any tactical adjustments take place.

 

[Cutch]

You've got a keeper who made a shocking mistake in a World Cup final v a keeper with 5 clean sheets in 9 World Cup games in ’66 and ’70 and kept 6 clean sheets in 8 in the corresponding World Cup qualifiers. Lev Yashin called him his successor and yet somehow Kahn - not even the 3rd best keeper of the last two decades - is easily better? No chance. The best keeper in the match isn't even on the pitch.

Was that the World Cup that Kahn was voted the best player (Golden Ball)? The only goalkeeper ever to have done so, and runner up in the FIFA World Player of the year that same year, also the only goalkeeper to have done so. The year before he was man of the match in the CL final when Bayern were victorious. Theres no doubt this man can do it on the big stage.

 

[Balu]

You've got a keeper who made a shocking mistake in a World Cup final v a keeper with 5 clean sheets in 9 World Cup games in ’66 and ’70 and kept 6 clean sheets in 8 in the corresponding World Cup qualifiers. Lev Yashin called him his successor and yet somehow Kahn - not even the 3rd best keeper of the last two decades - is easily better? No chance. The best keeper in the match isn't even on the pitch.

And then of course at right back you've got a player that nobody knows. The only one on the pitch that's pretty much a complete unknown. And he's up against a player we all know better than anyone. It'll be interesting to see whose favour that works in actually. Are we too aware of Giggs' flaws and blissfully oblivious to Ezyaguirre's?

Yeah, that's mind-boggling. Maybe Kahn is a vote winner compared to him.

Still, I think Kahn is the perfect keeper against your way of attacking.

 

[Cutch]

Very very close.

I don't really like Baggio having to do so much of a midfield job personally, I would have gone with a less attacking option and allowed Best to flourish a bit more.

Cutch has the better keeper on the bench!

It seems like Redondo and Edwards will have so much to in the middle that they won't be able to cover thier full backs as much as they need them to, I'd back both Giggs and Matthews to have some joy (particularly with Best and Figo supposed to be helping out, not very defensive wingers) and provide good service for Eusebio who will score.

Brwneds team is the most cohesive in the game, all players know what to do, have done it before etc and tactically it looks very straightforward to implement.

The attacking talent that cutch has is great but I think he may have gone a little OTT, no doubt he wll attract most of the quick glance votes which makes me, as an ex manager, want to vote for Brwned as I can appreciate how hard it is to put together a team that is as cohesive and works as well as his.

Will leave it for a while to hear more from the managers however and see if any tactical adjustments take place.

I'm not expecting Baggio to have much of a midfield job to do for the reasons i've already mentioned. Keane will be too preoccupied with the 3 interchanging players that he'll have a limited impact on this game. Keane is wasted in that role tbh, he's going to get dragged all over the place as it will be too difficult to pass on a player to his fullbacks with that amount of skill and trickery between the 3 of them.

The midfield battle will be left to Redondo and Edwards who i expect to be too overpowering for Di Stefano the great that he is, and Falcao.

Regarding the ott in attack. I've tried to address that since the last game dropping Tigana and Robson for the more defensive minded Redondo and Edwards. I think them 2 will give me a much more solid platform, for the front 4 to win me this game.

 

[Cutch]

I'll consider changing Kahn and Maier but the reason i've went for Kahn is the clear peak (which is what we are judging this on) he had in his career between 98 and 02 where he was clearly the best player in the world in his position and as good a peak as i've seen from any keeper probably in the last 20 years, Schmeichel included.

 

[Cutch]

Have to go away for a few hours guys. Back later

 

[Fergus' son]

You have improved your central area but I still think its not going to be enough.

If Keane is preoccupied with the wingers then why aren't your CMs? Also like I said, your CMs are concentrating mainly on central areas then Brwned wingers are going to get much joy out wide up against some attacking full backs.

 

[Cutch]

You have improved your central area but I still think its not going to be enough.

If Keane is preoccupied with the wingers then why aren't your CMs? Also like I said, your CMs are concentrating mainly on central areas then Brwned wingers are going to get much joy out wide up against some attacking full backs.

Because my 3 are interchanging whereas Brwned is playing a more rigid shape.

My fullbacks, as good as they are attacking, are more than capable defenders. Nilton Santos is 'The Encyclopaedia' remember. He knows everything about defending. If someone beats him once it won't happen the next time! I think Figo and Best are a more frightening pair than Matthews and Best and i expect to have more joy on the flanks than Brwned will.

 

[Brwned]

Was that the World Cup that Kahn was voted the best player (Golden Ball)? The only goalkeeper ever to have done so, and runner up in the FIFA World Player of the year that same year, also the only goalkeeper to have done so. The year before he was man of the match in the CL final when Bayern were victorious. Theres no doubt this man can do it on the big stage.

He was the best keeper in the tournament much like Mazurka was in 1970, it just so happens that my man was competing against Rivelino, Pelé, Tostao and co. for the best player award rather than a past his best Ronaldo, out-of-sorts Zidane etc. The fact a goalkeeper won it says more about the tournament itself than the quality of his performances, we both know that.

The midfield battle will be left to Redondo and Edwards who i expect to be too overpowering for Di Stefano the great that he is, and Falcao.

How can that be the case when Falcao is considered by all South Americans as being right up there with Redondo if not ahead of him while Di Stéfano not only has a bigger legend than Edwards but he did in fact best him when they came up against each other, in the exact same positions, and both were at their peaks then...and of course Keane is not there to mark Baggio out of the game, Baggio's not good enough to warrant that kind of special attention. He's right there in the midfield battle and he'll be forcing Redondo to run back towards his own goal without question.

It's simple. I have three well-rounded midfielders in there, you have two and Baggio's doing very little midfield work as you said yourself. I get more of the ball, these three midfielders all have outstanding distribution and all play complementary roles in the build-up = I have more chances. You might have the better wingers and the sexier build-up but it counts for little when I'm the one in control. And of course I have the better goalscorer up top while van Basten's all-round contribution is marginalised somewhat without Gullit there to take off some of the workload.

What do you say about Ezyaguirre being the only unknown in this game - and perhaps the only one left in the tournament - with no credentials to back him up? How is he going to cope with Giggs when we've got no evidence of him dealing with anyone half as good?

 

[Revan]

Both good teams but I prefer Brwned one which I think could tactically work better and has a better defense.

 

[Cling Bak]

Not at all, McGrath took Signori completely out of the game and had some highlight blocks/tackles on Baggio but Keane was the one marshalling his area and given a very clear task of looking after the little Italian genius.

I don't remember Keane doing a specific job on Baggio in 1994 and there's no mention of it in this match report either:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/irelandfootball/story/0,,587032,00.html

 

[Brwned]

I could watch the first half again, cut out the bits where the commentators mentioned a) Keane excelling and b) Baggio being well taken care of by him and then post the clips on here if it's really a point of debate?

 

[antohan]

Because my 3 are interchanging whereas Brwned is playing a more rigid shape.

My fullbacks, as good as they are attacking, are more than capable defenders. Nilton Santos is 'The Encyclopaedia' remember. He knows everything about defending. If someone beats him once it won't happen the next time! I think Figo and Best are a more frightening pair than Matthews and Best and i expect to have more joy on the flanks than Brwned will.

You probably want to edit that

 

[antohan]

I wouldn't be surprised if Keane can do a job on Baggio TBH. But I do see Cutch's point that it means Keane is shot for anything else other than that job. Could be an issue with Falcao's and Di Stefano's contribution not as evident to the average teamsheet scanner.

 

[Fergus' son]

I don't know why Keane is assumed to be preoccupied solely dealing with Baggio whilst the same isn't true for Redondo and De Stefano?

Protection for the full backs is key I think with such great wingers on display and I think Brwned has that little more.

Having Charles at the back is useful for Cutch though, the physical presence should help against Eusebio and in particular his aerial threat.

 

[Brwned]

Like I said I only mentioned Keane on Baggio because it showed that a) Baggio could be nullified and b) they had previous. Keane won't be marking him at all, my deeper two are sharing the defensive duties just as much as Edwards and Redondo.

Quick point on the two strikers: even when van Basten was in free-scoring Holland he was a worse goalscorer than Eusébio. His best goals tally was 43 in 43 games but the league averaged 3 goals per game and Ajax scored 2.7 gpg in the league. Eusébio scored 50 goals in 35 games when Benfica scored 2.88 gpg or 42 in 33 games when Benfica scored 2.46 gpg. There's no question he was a notably better goalscorer.

 

[antohan]

I don't know why Keane is assumed to be preoccupied solely dealing with Baggio whilst the same isn't true for Redondo and De Stefano?

Brwned has nailed his mast on Keane doing that job. He assumes Edwards is doing the same job on Di Stéfano but Cutch hasn't explicitly stated it.

The "mirage" is that if Keane is busy with Baggio then it is 2 vs. 2 and "Redondo + Edwards will beat Di Stefano + Falcao", but you are looking at two completely different situations: with ball and without ball.

Say Keane recovers the ball, will Baggio track back or leave his midfielders in a 2 vs. 3? Di Stéfano would, I don't see Baggio doing it. Effectively, with ball Brwned is 3 vs. 2 in central midfield. At times, Keane won't do a great job on Baggio if he keeps pulling away from him and going all gung ho, but in early phases he wouldn't just stick to Baggio and leave his colleagues to it, like a Makelele would.

Cutch is always 3 vs. 3, but has his wingers deeper and working hard on making themselves available, so I don't see him losing the midfield battle altogether as a stonewall truth. The bizarre thing is that with that Keane assignment some may be seeing Brwned losing it, which makes no sense to me.

 

[Fergus' son]

He hasn't stated that Keane is solely focused on Baggio though has he? He says that Keane is capable of nullifying Baggio as he did in 94' but not that Keanes primary focus would be Baggio. I think it was brought up to prove that despite Cutch's abundance of attacking talent Brwned has players with the ability to deal with them.

 

[Brwned]

Yes, even if I was sticking Keane on him as a man-marker it wouldn't change the fact Baggio isn't tracking back and Keane's still participating when we're in possession. It would limit him from bursting forward but he'd still be pinging balls about from deep. That's not happening though. I'm no Jack Charlton, if I was I'd have taken Stam and put Trésor at right back to look after Best and give nothing going forward but that's not what happened. I brought in Krol to really make Figo think about what he wants. Leaving Krol and Giggs to team up on some Chilean bloke isn't a clever idea in my view.

 

[Moby]

Di Stefano's superior wort rate and defensive work compared to Baggio is the biggest difference for as explained by others which would win Brwned the midfield battle.

 

[antohan]

Like I said I only mentioned Keane on Baggio because it showed that a) Baggio could be nullified and b) they had previous. Keane won't be marking him at all, my deeper two are sharing the defensive duties just as much as Edwards and Redondo.

Oh, OK, just wrote a whole post on that

Quick point on the two strikers: even when van Basten was in free-scoring Holland he was a worse goalscorer than Eusébio. His best goals tally was 43 in 43 games but the league averaged 3 goals per game and Ajax scored 2.7 gpg in the league. Eusébio scored 50 goals in 35 games when Benfica scored 2.88 gpg or 42 in 33 games when Benfica scored 2.46 gpg. There's no question he was a notably better goalscorer.

The leagues are hardly comparable though, all that tells me is Benfica were more reliant on Eusebio for goals than Ajax on van Basten, which I sort of already knew.

And that they were both superb strikers, no doubt about that.

 

[antohan]

He hasn't stated that Keane is solely focused on Baggio though has he?

Yes, even if I was sticking Keane on him as a man-marker it wouldn't change the fact Baggio isn't tracking back and Keane's still participating when we're in possession. It would limit him from bursting forward but he'd still be pinging balls about from deep. That's not happening though. I'm no Jack Charlton

Clear. It was the whole key battle thing in the highlights. You may want to review that Brwned because many have been under the impression that is exactly the job you have assigned to Keane. I was at least.

 

[Brwned]

Oh, OK, just wrote a whole post on that



The leagues are hardly comparable though, all that tells me is Benfica were more reliant on Eusebio for goals than Ajax on van Basten, which I sort of already knew.

And that they were both superb strikers, no doubt about that.

I wouldn't say that. In 63/64 they topped the 100 goals mark from just 26 games, Eusébio played only 19 of them - his 4th lowest appearance total in his career with the other three at the beginning or end - and scored less than 1/3 of their goals that year. In the early 80s who did Ajax have to take the burden off van Basten? Wouters, Winter, Bergkamp, and Muhren only came in his last couple of seasons there, I can see Bosman and Rijkaard as his only notable supporting cast. Not that that counts for or against Eusébio in any way, like you said you can interpret whatever way you want and it won't change the fact they're both outstanding forwards.

I don't think it's controversial to say Eusébio's the better goalscorer though. If you can't look at their club records then look at the World Cup records. Van Basten had a lot more to his game than almost any other #9, that's what I love about him. I do think some of that is taken away without the appropriate supporting cast and Gullit's pace, power and selflessness did allow Marco Golo to roam and get involved in the build-up while Gullit acted as the target man. Baggio of course can't do that.

Clear. It was the whole key battle thing in the highlights. You may want to review that Brwned because many have been under the impression that is exactly the job you have assigned to Keane. I was at least.

Done, should clear things up.

 

[NM]

tough game. JUST went for Cutch

 

[antohan]

and scored less than 1/3 of their goals that year. In the early 80s who did Ajax have to take the burden off van Basten?

The stats you posted indicated Van Basten managed 1gpg in an Ajax side that scored 2.7gpg and Eusebio 1.4gpg in a Benfica side with 2.8gpg, all I can read into that is Eusebio scored half his team's goals and Marco just over 1/3. Who scored them? Bugger all idea and I'm not going to go off to find out

Not that that counts for or against Eusébio in any way, like you said you can interpret whatever way you want and it won't change the fact they're both outstanding forwards.

Indeed. I can see the merit on shedding more light on Eusebio, but comparisons relative to van Basten won't get you anywhere I feel. Baggio is no Gullit though, you are right there.

 

[Thisistheone]

Decided to go for Brwned. So tight but in the end it came down to Baggio v Di Stéfano and that is what swung it for me.