Lucio is definitely top of mind in my continuing battle to find five credible Brazilian CBs.
All Time Chain Draft - R1: antohan vs Joga/Annah
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
Lucio is definitely top of mind in my continuing battle to find five credible Brazilian CBs.
I had a few Penarol players saving his ass though, it's always a good idea to put a few of antohan's favourites next to the ones he doesn't like
. But yes, he played a starring key role in my 3 man defense in the manager draft:
He wasn't sellable at all, even Don Elías would have struggled to contain two strikers with this chap going on random errands.
I knew I never rated him much at all and somewhat preferred Bellini but I was shocked to see just how bad he was. That clip with the long ball and the knockdown for someone who is utterly free... Nilton Santos is helping out Zózimo to cover for this numpty. Who on earth would rather have Mauro Ramos wondering around the midfield than having Nilton doing his job on the flank?
Mental, made no sense whatsoever, I didn't see him get a single thing right for ten minutes. Really weird.
If you ask Balu he will tell you he asked me my opinion on him and Bellini and I told him I wouldn't pick either.
It's not my job to destroy players on behalf of other managers, it's for them to do their job. Unless of course it's Gary Kelly, then I'll certainly oblige.
Mauro Ramos
He was the captain of Sao Paulo, Pele's Santos and the Brazilian National Team.
"For those who saw Domingos da Guia playing, it was unthinkable that a center-back could come close to “El Divino Maestro” once was: the perfection. This was just recognized in 1946, in Poços de Caldas, countryside of the state of Minas Gerais, for those who watched his first steps while Mauro was at Associação Atlética Caldense, his local hometown team. The young man demonstrated an elegant and classic style, great in using his head, loyal in the tackles – however steady. He was a good marker although he was slow. He had a lot of Domingos indeed."
“Mauro was a classical defender, elegant; he was never prone to use violent tackles or being disloyal. He always was capable to stop adversary attacks with an immense stillness.”
How come he could play with Zozimo who was a playmaking midfielder by heart? Back then Brazilian centre backs were defenders first and foremost;
Mauro Ramos - "It's foolishness. If a center-back, while pursuing a forward, finds himself in a position in which he doesn't have sufficient quality, he will pay dearly for it. Did you know Oscar came back from USA because of this?". The text still follows: "Oscar fully agrees with Mauro and he thinks the better for the Brazilian football is to go on by doing what he knows best."
Club
Trophies & Tournaments:
1962 Campeonato Paulista - Santos F.C.
1962 Copa Libertadores - Santos F.C.
1962 World Cup - Brazil
1962 Intercontinental Cup - Santos F.C.
1962 Taça Brasil - Santos F.C.
1963 Copa Libertadores - Santos F.C.
1963 Taça Brasil - Santos F.C.
1963 Coppa Roca - Brazil
1963 Torneio Rio-São Paulo - Santos F.C.
1963 Intercontinental Cup - Santos F.C.
1964 Campeonato Paulista - Santos F.C.
1964 Torneio Rio-São Paulo - Santos F.C.
1964 Taça Brasil - Santos F.C.
1965 Campeonato Paulista - Santos F.C.
1965 Taça Brasil - Santos F.C.
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Yeah, that was definitely true during the World Cup draft. Anto was always honest about that to me. @crappycraperson
Crappy's right though, when I picked him in the manager draft for my Bela Guttmann team (I didn't really have a choice), you didn't criticise him even once. But then, you were busy to defend the Penarol players in my team after they were criticised. Which was of course part of my plan all along
.Yeah, but in fairness that's painting him in a pretty horrible light. He won the WC - as a captain - and captained Santos too (I think) for a number of years. And he's generally highly rated among Brazilian sports journos (of the sort who compose all time XIs), Annah's right about that.
So, while he's underwhelming in an all time draft context, he isn't an insane pick. It's what we've been saying here: The pool of truly great Brazilian CBs is...well, it consists of one man. Below him there's a handful of players who are all much of a muchness, I'd say. And it's not unreasonable to claim that he's among those players, alongside Bellini, Lucio, Aldair...that bunch.
The problem here, of course, is that being in that bunch simply doesn't cut it. Compared to what you sported in the same department, he looks positively shabby.
Glad to see antohan is still as effective and charming as ever!
Great game though, two very good teams. Anto's defence is brilliant, one of the best I'v seen in a draft pre reinforcement stage.
Great game though, two very good teams. Anto's defence is brilliant, one of the best I'v seen in a draft pre reinforcement stage.
Yeah, that was definitely true during the World Cup draft. Anto was always honest about that to me. @crappycraperson
Crappy's right though, when I picked him in the manager draft for my Bela Guttmann team (I didn't really have a choice), you didn't criticise him even once. But then, you were busy to defend the Penarol players in my team after they were criticised. Which was of course part of my plan all along
Standard draft shenanigans, everyone knows @Aldo has that Baresi clip on My Favourites in case any discussion on Maradona or Baresi vs. Scirea comes up.
The difference being, if I don't defend my boys, who will?
Glad to see antohan is still as effective and charming as ever!
Great game though, two very good teams. Anto's defence is brilliant, one of the best I'v seen in a draft pre reinforcement stage.
It's not just that, but also coupled with the one in which Scirea keeps a clean sheet against Napoli with Maradona throwing everything he can at him.
(Napoli won through a Diego FK by the way, the clean sheet was from open play.)Yeah, that was definitely true during the World Cup draft. Anto was always honest about that to me. @crappycraperson
Crappy's right though, when I picked him in the manager draft for my Bela Guttmann team (I didn't really have a choice), you didn't criticise him even once. But then, you were busy to defend the Penarol players in my team after they were criticised. Which was of course part of my plan all along
I don't necessarily have a problem with that. anto is essentially playing the role of a lawyer here. It was upto Annah and Joga to counter him. Only thing is when they did try to hit him on his unknown players, they got a lot of replies from others along with Aldo. On the flip side no one really countered anto along with them here. They needed a hyper posting performance to win this
My main criticism was the same as everyone else - toothlessness against a top defence.The thing with Brazilian CBs and Brazilian rating of CBs is there's still this massive rift between those enamoured with Jogo Bonito and those who realise football doesn't work like that any more. Mauro may have made a decent libero, he clearly likes going AWOL, regularly. At Santos that was fine as it was a dominant team that outscored the oppo but conceded tonnes as well, there was one particular Libertadores game where Peñarol lost 5-4 away at Santos. No one cared about the four goals because they scored five anyway, so him being more a footballer than an actual defender didn't really get much scrutiny. Same with Brazil.
There's no doubt in my mind I would have been far more concerned facing Lucio than Mauro Ramos. Zero, nothing.
Oh yes, no argument there.
He's a midget on top of everything else (for a CB) and a ball player much more than a duel man. So your point about him being eaten alive by Boninsegna was more than valid. I'm not defending the man as such, just pointing out that he isn't some sort of super mug who doesn't belong in this setting. He does - but he's out of his depth in this match.
Yeah, at one point I actually thought Annah and Joga overdid the '2 vs 1' thing. They basically took turns and posted throughout with no break at all and if it was me playing against them, I would have been a bit annoyed. But then I thought, it's anto, they should keep going if they want to have a chance.
They were largely talking bollocks though. I'm as guilty as anyone of ending up being one sided simply because one manager is putting forward a coherent case backed by evidence and the other is talking crap.
I think for the most part it revolved around Annah's dismissive approach (anyone saying someone is shit because he hasn't been picked before is asking for it) and the ongoing tripe about how Facchetti wasn't going to attack and would be in all sorts of trouble.
Repeating a flawed argument enough times doesn't make it true, it just riles up people.
Yeah, that was definitely true during the World Cup draft. Anto was always honest about that to me. @crappycraperson
Crappy's right though, when I picked him in the manager draft for my Bela Guttmann team (I didn't really have a choice), you didn't criticise him even once. But then, you were busy to defend the Penarol players in my team after they were criticised. Which was of course part of my plan all along
Antohan: It doesn't concern me one bit TBH, perfectly comfortable in dealing with Joga's attack. Caetano kept clean sheets against the likes of José Augusto, Amancio and Jinky Johnstone, I don't see why he wouldn't against Hoeness. Matosas and Ramos are a great combo in terms of style and steel and Maldini shouldn't have a problem dealing with Wimmer. The defence is also very well protected with that midfield trio ahead of them.
I certainly expected Balu Guttman (
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/mana...oga-bonito-lattek.398193/page-2#post-16679428
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/mana...oga-bonito-lattek.398193/page-2#post-16679483
This isn't over.
I think everybody knows Anto is more greasy than a used car salesman, and will sell his team like its the fecking Kohinoor diamond. Part and parcel of the draft, even though I hate it. He's just very darn good and extremely entertaining, as long as you are not the one playing him.
Sup! Long time!
How much have you seen from him lately mate? Even in comparison to the international standard he's a great footballer and defender. The Brazilian defenders are hardly as useless as they are being portrayed as here, Luis Pereira and Mauro Ramos are quality picks even for an All-time draft especially with this drafts circumstances. I've watched plenty of Bellini as well and he's a great defender too.
http://www.xtratime.org/forum/showthread.php?t=268164
Has him down as 61. Mauro Ramos (Brazil) ahead of players like Campbell, McGrath, Rio Ferdinand etc etc. Of course these lists are just another opinion and not credential facts but he's being painted out as a nobody while he was fantastic.
@Annahnomoss, you do realise I am at no point saying he is a terrific CB and actually most of that is aimed towards the genius of Bela Gutman and his influence in Brazilian football.
If you are impersonating Bela Guttmann Mauro Ramos plays for your side, it's that simple. It's all part of the story, which is the more interesting part in a thematic draft like that one. I mean, it would be like making a SAF side and not playing the fledglings.
Incidentally, that backline had enough defensive quality to acccommodate a player like Ramos. In a four man backline, with two attacking fullbacks and without a stopper next to him it jjust doesn't sound like the best idea. At all.
If you are impersonating Bela Guttmann Mauro Ramos plays for your side, it's that simple. It's all part of the story, which is the more interesting part in a thematic draft like that one. I mean, it would be like making a SAF side and not playing the fledglings.
Incidentally, that backline had enough defensive quality to acccommodate a player like Ramos. In a four man backline, with two attacking fullbacks and without a stopper next to him it jjust doesn't sound like the best idea. At all.
FFS mate, Heynckes would have been rather pleased with that if you said those stuff in that older match of mine when many were questioning the other team's defense
. (Still would have deservedly lost that one anyway.)
Anyway, let's drop this and move on. The match is over and I accept that you won fair and square but the bashing of M.Ramos is extremely unfair and over the top, and by the rate you are going, no one is going to pick him again. That just wouldn't be right.
Too late now. Should have posted this 12 hours back
Really? My team was full gung-ho with a 3 man defense and no wingbacks
. But then, that was kinda the point of my team. feck defending, keep outscoring the opponent. Mauro Ramos would have felt instantly at home in a team like that.Ramos gets to go sit with Luis Eyzaguirre in the corner of the room. Forever.
Still sore, clearly.
What am I sore about? I was actually praising you!
Indeed. Real life too busy for drafts though this seemed a great one
I didn't, he's tied to the tree outside.Don't forget poor Gary Kelly too
He's not a great defender. That's bollocks, pure and simple.
Match over, let it go.
The game is finished indeed. That's why I wonder why Annah keeps questioning statements I make after the game is over. It's my opinion, everyone is entitled to one.
I'd agree he shouldn't go to some sort of draft dustbin, but when picked he has to be picked for his positive attributes and what they contribute to a team, not sticking him next to a sweeper and saying they complement each other fantastically and that because the guy captained a World Cup winning side then he has no problem against Roberto Boninsegna the never before picked player.
Now THAT was poor form. It's crystal clear to anyone with an ounce of good sense that Boninsegna is precisely the sort of striker he will have a torrid time with. It takes you five minutes to suss it.
I'm all for being fair on players and part of being fair is not grossly misrepresenting them.
Indeed, I would buy him in a setup such as that.
So tell us how you reached this conclusion as you are definitely more in the know than anybody else on this topic(Placar Magazine etc). How many games have you seen from Mauro Ramos? Do you mind discussing these games that made you see him as such a poor defender? Is there any articles that you've found that severely criticise him? Can we have a look at those?Really? My team was full gung-ho with a 3 man defense and no wingbacks
I thought I read up there that you had Caetano, Matosas and Maldini in it as well... Oh, of course. THAT Maldini.
And yes, you are right, and if you are playing him under that premise and aren't pretending that all is well and good, then fair enough.
The not enjoying playing against me
Happy to keep you entertained and interested, that's the point after all.
That's fair enough and you were within your right to do so during the match as you felt he was misused tactically etc but continuing to bash his individual ability and credentials after the match, and outside the match, isn't necessary though. Just as Annah questioning Boninsegna and Altafini after the match wasn't right but a defense of your players would have been more apt than the bashing of M.Ramos.
It just wouldn't be right if he goes to the draft dustbin.