All Time Chain Draft - R1: antohan vs Joga/Annah

Who will win with players at career peaks?


  • Total voters
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  • Poll closed .
Obdulio Jacinto Varela – “El Negro Jefe” (Peñarol, 1953-54)

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The man who silenced the Maracanã before Schiaffino made it tremble and Ghiggia reduced it to tears. You’ve heard it all before: beastly midfielder, dominant, capable of executing the most influential and game-defining World Cup Final individual performance. He could sit and protect the defence, passing the ball short and long to good effect, or operate as a box-to-box midfielder with a thunderous long range cannon of a right peg.

You’ve also read my ranting about him being at his b est surrounded by his own, players with shared histories, identities, philosophies, idiosyncracies… There was a massive dimension to him as a player and captain which requires this, place him in a ragged band of superstars and his impact would be hugely diminished. I stand by that (and you’ll probably “get it” from the rest of this post), which is why I want him at the heart of this “Gianni Brera mind blown best of Italy and Uruguay” composite.

What you probably haven’t read about is how he raised that late 40s side as captain, and how he saw it out, saw the Death Squad disband, and the key players he groomed leave… and stooped and started again with worn out tools. No, he didn’t play much beyond them, but he carried on until he knew it was all on track with William Martínez arriving to captain the side for the next seven years. Once his legs went, he stayed on as coach/advisor/whatever it was until the giant hole he had left in midfield had been filled satisfactorily by someone equally capable of demanding order and total commitment in the midfield, the backline behind it, and the forwards ahead.
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Peñarol’s training ground “Las Acacias” was his home for over a decade. In particular, there was one tree where he held court with each and every player, always individually, and paying particular attention to the youth prospects. He imposed respect -not fear- among his teammates, although everyone hoped he would arrive whistling a tune as an indication he was in a good mood that day. He imparted wisdom, never raised his voice or needed to speak out of turn. He kept quiet most of the time, listening, observing, and when he made the slightest motion indicating he was about to speak everyone would shut up and stay expectant to what would be no doubt a lesson worth learning. He had the power of synthesis (I sure don’t!), the ability to dissect a game and occasion and home in on what was wrong, what was the root cause, with laser precision. And then he acted and directed on his insights, expertly.

The arrival of Ghiggia and Hohberg was the inception of the Death Squad. In 1949, they averaged four goals a game while conceding one: 5-0, 5-2, 3-0, 3-1, 6-1, 6-0 and 5-3 was their form sheet prior to the derby against Nacional. The day before it, he dedicated an entire hour to each of them individually, to make sure he got into their heads what it meant to play a derby, what it meant to wear those colours on such a stage.

Hohberg tells us more about his one-to-one:

OJV: I know you boys have been pummeling the smaller teams, people are excited… but this is different.

JEH: I know, it’s a big game.

OJV: Yes, but also big players. You know who is marking you tomorrow?

JEH: “El Cato” Tejera [1950 WC winner]

OJV: And you know what he will do, right?

JEH: He will kick me all game.

OJV: No, he won’t. He will test you. He will try to get under your skin, in your head, losing focus, and if he succeeds he won’t need to kick you all that much. You will have a poor game anyway, and if you have a poor game it will be hard for Ghiggia not to [since they were inside right and outside right respectively]. That’s half the battle won for them.

JEH: I understand, don’t worry.

OJV: This is what will happen. In the first five minutes of the game, as soon as he gets an opportunity he will play a dirty trick on you. You will take it, you won’t complain, you won’t shout anything at him or cry like a baby to the ref, or point fingers at him. You’ll just stand up and keep going.

JEH: Yes, Sir.

OJV: The next time I get the ball, I’ll play it in between you two. 50-50. And you know what you will do?

JEH: Yes, I know

For the record, it didn’t mean breaking his leg or anything, it meant going for that ball with complete abandon and showing no amount of dirty tricks were going to subdue him. That he could give as good as he got and the occasion didn’t get to him.

The next day, there’s a corner two minutes into the game and Hohberg suddenly feels a searing pain which makes him arch forth and fall on his side gasping for air. Tejera had elbowed him. No complaints.

A few minutes later Obdulio gets the ball, looks ahead, sees Hohberg alert and moving to make the space for him to pass into, nods his head knowingly and places it bang in the middle. Crunching tackle, and Tejera had got his message: he couldn’t make the connection break down, which was probably the easy win game-plan he had dwelled on all week. Soon after Ghiggia scored, and five minutes before half time Tejera brought down Hohberg in the box: penalty. Tejera loses the plot screaming bloody murder at the ref and gets sent off. The penalty is taken by Míguez, saved, but Vidal scores from the rebound. Nacional players are by now all over the place. They know they are completely dominated and destined to lose by a basketball score. They surround the ref, the centre-forward kicks him and is also sent off…

Nacional never came back for the second half. There have been big scorelines through history, but the shame of running away from the stadium to avoid humiliation will forever hang on their heads. And it all started and the game was won in the course of a one hour chat under an acacia tree.
 
BRAZILIAN KRYPTONITE
The main Brazilian newspaper had the main page and backpage printed as a poster on the morning of the game. "Congratulations Champions!", showing the Brazil team photo.

Varela went to buy as many papers as he could find, made sure every one of his teammates had seen them, then took them into a room, lay them on the floor, and invited them to piss on them :lol:

Before the game started there were massive ceremonies, the Major of Rio made a speech, also congratulating the Champions and going on about the fabulous stadium he had built for that very special occasion. The Brazilian players didn't find it odd, didn't feel the pressure yet, they had shat on everyone along the way anyway. Meanwhile, Varela just stood there listening.

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Soon after the game started, Bigode (their left back) fouls Ghiggia (our right winger). Next time Bigode gets the ball Varela goes in like a bulldozer and knocks him off the pitch, stands on top of him pointing his finger Keano-style and tells him in inequivocal terms: "You don´t touch the little fella or I'll wipe you out. Clear?". Ghiggia was given the freedom of the flank, assisted our first goal and scored the second.

Obdulio and Ghiggia after the final whistle
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Then the goal came, the complaints about a non-existent offside. The English referee not understanding a word and calling for the interpreter... Next thing you knew the Brazilians were not exuberant, but worried it would be disallowed.

Halfway through the second half, Jules Rimet exits his seat and goes to prepare himself for the ceremony. He finds "1950 - Brazil" had been carved into it in advance but didn't think much of it. The stadium had gone silent, but he was too busy rehearsing his speech...

Then out he came to find a dead stadium, confusion all around, and in a crowd of people the giant "Black Chief" emerges, grabs the trophy and leaves him standing there, as confused as everyone else. Later on, back in his senses, his conclusion would be: "they were born to be Champions".

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Four years later, Uruguay's World Cup undefeated run would come to an end. In the semifinal, in extra-time, after a 2-2 draw in normal time against Hungary. Varela had got injured in the 4-2 quarter against England. Had he been available... We will never know.:annoyed:
 
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@Joga Bonito

For me, at least, this isn't about Enzo - it's about the fact that it's JUST him, i.e. the fact that you're fielding a lone striker against anto's defence. The latter is formidable. You lack sheer attacking strength against that defence of his. I said it in my initial post, but I'll repeat it here: The reason I vote for him is that agree with his most basic contention, viz. that you won't score against him. It's a nil-nil draw at best for you. But the likeliest outcome, in my opinion, is that this counter attacking scheme of his (for which his players have been carefully selected) will result in at least the one goal which will win him the match.

Your offensive set-up isn't terrible by any means, and you would've won hands down against most of the teams in this draft, but against this particular opponent you need an extra body up front, an extra, dedicated attacker who represents one more outlet, one more goal scorer- because what you sport as it stands isn't enough to break down his defence.

It's actually a far simpler - and to me obvious - reason than I usually manage to come up with when deciding who to go for. He's set up to counter and has the players for it (including one hell of a defence for soaking up the pressure) - you, on your part, have modified an essentially Brazilian (a '58/'70 combo) model to make it needlessly pragmatic/safe at the expense of that deadliness up front you need in this particular match.
 


The famed dry leaf technique on full display in the first 40 seconds or so. Legend has it that during their time at Real, di Stefano once had a bet with Didi on replicating his technique and failed miserably. It takes some player to make di Stefano jealous and Didi fanmail by the thousands in Spain most certainly didn't help.
 
Your offensive set-up isn't terrible by any means, and you would've won hands down against most of the teams in this draft, but against this particular opponent you need an extra body up front, an extra, dedicated attacker who represents one more outlet, one more goal scorer- because what you sport as it stands isn't enough to break down his defence.

Fair enough then, I'd obviously disagree as I believe Enzo's goalscoring prowess up top in combination with the deadly Jairzinho (1 in 2 record), Rivelino (1 in 3 record) and Didi (1 in 3 record) is more than enough. The team just has too much creativity and the goalscoring potential (which can be improved, needless to say) to win this match imo. Guess we will have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.
 
Teo could also produce a mean dry leaf. Against Brazil, in Brazil, to knock them out on their own backyard, just like my boys are used to.

 
Btw, @Chesterlestreet, Altafini was a starter in Brazil's early games, scored and did well but he got injured and when he came back Pelé and Garrincha had nailed down their spots.

Once you had what those two offer, what Brazil needed wasn't someone like Altafini. They needed a more classic centreforward like Vavá, the sort Joga lacks and I have in Boninsegna.

Correct decision IMO.
 
Teo could also produce a mean dry leaf. Against Brazil, in Brazil, to knock them out on their own backyard, just like my boys are used to.



Of course he had a nasty dry leaf technique, the creator Didi taught the boy!:D

c.c.: It was the historic "three fingers" free kick?

Cubillas.: Yup. Or we could also call it the "dry folha" (dry leaves) free kick in homage to the master Didi, the Brazilian who was our coach.

c.c.: It seemed that Didi was the ideal coach for that Peruvian team with so many good players.

Cubillas.: Undoubtedly, Didi was a great coach and a great person as well, for me he was like a father.
 
I really dislike how any fullback who can attack suddenly becomes liability in the back or can not provide his usual attacking game. Facchetti in this game, for example - yes, he revolutionized the position but he was one heck of a defender at the same time. But if you have Facchetti/Brehme suddenly you are vulnerable at the back :annoyed:

There are very few fullbacks in history of the game that can provide world-class attacking game while still being awesome at the back, and Facchetti is surely one of them. More so, the usual LWB-RCB catenaccio scheme wasn't that flat, mostly it was that way, but sometimes (not often) Burgnich bursted forward while Facchetti stayed back, making this more like a RWB-LCB situation - he was very capable
 
Btw, @Chesterlestreet, Altafini was a starter in Brazil's early games, scored and did well but he got injured and when he came back Pelé and Garrincha had nailed down their spots.

Once you had what those two offer, what Brazil needed wasn't someone like Altafini. They needed a more classic centreforward like Vavá, the sort Joga lacks and I have in Boninsegna.

Correct decision IMO.

Yes, it's certainly a justified decision at any rate.

Anyway, the fact that he was a starter for that team at the beginning of the tournament says something about his level, I should think.

If memory serves he became an Italian citizen by and by - and was also capped for Italy.
 
Of course he had a nasty dry leaf technique, the creator Didi taught the boy!:D

c.c.: It was the historic "three fingers" free kick?

Cubillas.: Yup. Or we could also call it the "dry folha" (dry leaves) free kick in homage to the master Didi, the Brazilian who was our coach.

c.c.: It seemed that Didi was the ideal coach for that Peruvian team with so many good players.

Cubillas.: Undoubtedly, Didi was a great coach and a great person as well, for me he was like a father.
You won't have me denying Didí's credentials as a player, coach or individual.

I can't for the life of me think of a better player to deal with him than Obdulio Jacinto Varela.
 
I really dislike how any fullback who can attack suddenly becomes liability in the back or can not provide his usual attacking game. Facchetti in this game, for example - yes, he revolutionized the position but he was one heck of a defender at the same time. But if you have Facchetti/Brehme suddenly you are vulnerable at the back :annoyed:

There are very few fullbacks in history of the game that can provide world-class attacking game while still being awesome at the back, and Facchetti is surely one of them. More so, the usual LWB-RCB catenaccio scheme wasn't that flat, mostly it was that way, but sometimes (not often) Burgnich bursted forward while Facchetti stayed back, making this more like a RWB-LCB situation - he was very capable

There has been no intention of trying to downplay Facchetti, he's one of the greatest full backs of all time and with that said you have to be great going forward and defending. The issue that has been brought up is rather that he is alone versus not just one - but two players of near equal quality in Jairzinho and Carlos Alberto who also played him and scored two goals together and were threatening through-out the match. While Facchetti had a hard time providing the width he usually does due to the quality of the opponents which had him defending most of the game rather while being kept very quiet offensively.
 
You won't have me denying Didí's credentials as a player, coach or individual.

I can't for the life of me think of a better player to deal with him than Obdulio Jacinto Varela.

Was just a joke mate, just a fun factoid about the Dry Leaf and the Didi/Cubillas relation.
 
From the vid alone you have Facchetti who makes a foul right at the start of the vid which could very well have been a red card, had it not been for the covering defender. Once again in 1.30 he makes a dangerous foul right outside the box. S.
To be honest I don't think either of those should've been given as fouls in the video. He gets the ball in the first clip and at 1.30 Jairzinho's not really in a position to get to the ball and get a free-kick.
 


Brazils top scorer in 1970 with 7 goals and 1 assist - Jairzinho scored in every single game of the tournament while tormenting his full backs with his blistering pace and dribbling. On the other side a slightly forgotten Rivelino provided 3 goals and 3 assists through out the tournament as well. Supported centrally by the creative central midfielder Didi who is the first and only central midfielder to win the Golden Ball as the most important player in the World Cup - ahead of the likes of Pele, Fontaine, Kopa, Nilton Santos and Djalma Santos.

Not to mention that he's partnered with his dynamo partner Zito - and more importantly Tigana who also racked up 3 assists in the 1982 World Cup showing he can influence the results of the game on top of being a box-to-box engine.
 
There has been no intention of trying to downplay Facchetti, he's one of the greatest full backs of all time and with that said you have to be great going forward and defending. The issue that has been brought up is rather that he is alone versus not just one - but two players of near equal quality in Jairzinho and Carlos Alberto who also played him and scored two goals together and were threatening through-out the match. While Facchetti had a hard time providing the width he usually does due to the quality of the opponents which had him defending most of the game rather while being kept very quiet offensively.

That's just the thing, though: While I agree (as stated above) that Facchetti will be shackled to an extent, he won't be left alone with those two: He has cover, as anto has plausibly explained in the OP.

There's also the issue which was brought up earlier - but which went unaddressed, I think - of Carlos Alberto bombing forward here to do a double-up act on Facchetti with Jairzinho: Lose possession in that scenario and the speed of Facchetti either with or without the ball down a now unprotected flank (relatively speaking, of course) has to be considered.
 
That's just the thing, though: While I agree (as stated above) that Facchetti will be shackled to an extent, he won't be left alone with those two: He has cover, as anto has plausibly explained in the OP.

There's also the issue which was brought up earlier - but which went unaddressed, I think - of Carlos Alberto bombing forward here to do a double-up act on Facchetti with Jairzinho: Lose possession in that scenario and the speed of Facchetti either with or without the ball down a now unprotected flank (relatively speaking, of course) has to be considered.

Facchetti will be mark Jairzinho who will be a lot closer towards Antohans goal than Carlos Alberto most of the times so if the ball is lost he could potentially beat Jairzinho back - which would leave Jairzinho free when Antohan loses the ball - but Carlos Alberto is still further behind running back to cover. That is why Facchetti created nearly nothing over 90 minutes against Jairzinho and Carlos Alberto while the latter two ended up scoring two goals between them while being an neverending threat through-out the game.

About the cover, the defensive midfielders of course close down as best they can if the opponent is attacking down the wing but Cubillas wasn't someone who worked his socks off while defending, or anything close to it and wouldn't fill in the role as a central midfielder. This means that when Goncalves goes wide to cover - Varela would be centrally against Didi per instruction while Tigana would be free to move forward unmarked.

Like always if you move your central midfielder out wide to cover, it opens up space elsewhere, not to mention that Facchetti had tactically similar support in that 1970's game as well as they played a very similar formation.
 
Yeah, but in the spirit of not judging fantasy sides on their historical blueprints (see above - your own complaint), three things must be mentioned:

1. Italy '70 is not the blueprint for anto's team. It may be similar, but it's not the same: The blueprint is the late/cagey Peñarol more than Italy.

2. Defensively anto's side is an upgrade on Italy '70.

3. This fantasy match isn't played at the Azteca (or is it?) as the culmination of a certain match schedule (see the first page of this thread).
 
Facchetti will be mark Jairzinho who will be a lot closer towards Antohans goal than Carlos Alberto most of the times so if the ball is lost he could potentially beat Jairzinho back - which would leave Jairzinho free when Antohan loses the ball - but Carlos Alberto is still further behind running back to cover. That is why Facchetti created nearly nothing over 90 minutes against Jairzinho and Carlos Alberto while the latter two ended up scoring two goals between them while being an neverending threat through-out the game.

So basically there's no 2 vs 1 like you are portraying. If anyone actually watched Carlos Alberto his mark wasn't rampaging down the wing but providing crosses from deep. Which is absolutely fine by me because he has sweet feck all to aim for.

Chances are it will end like this header-fest from Figueroa single-handedly keeping out Gerd Müller, yes, Gerd fecking Müller, "Der Bomber". He even takes the piss at 1:20 when he uses a stunned Müller as an unwilling pivot to accommodate the ball.

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And he isn't partnered by that guy giving the passback there. He is partnered by Gaetano Scirea, of all defenders probably the last the Brazilians would want to face.

About the cover, the defensive midfielders of course close down as best they can if the opponent is attacking down the wing but Cubillas wasn't someone who worked his socks off while defending, or anything close to it and wouldn't fill in the role as a central midfielder. This means that when Goncalves goes wide to cover - Varela would be centrally against Didi per instruction while Tigana would be free to move forward unmarked.

Like always if you move your central midfielder out wide to cover, it opens up space elsewhere, not to mention that Facchetti had tactically similar support in that 1970's game as well as they played a very similar formation.

I have three midfielders: Gonçalves, Varela and Abbadie. If Gonçalves were to move towards the flank the whole trio moves along with the direction of play. Basic coordinated midfield work really. Worst case Torres plays a cross-field pass to Nilton Santos, then we switch along with that. I'm happy switching back and forth with those two whacking it sideways until I inevitably get it back.
 
Brazils top scorer in 1970 with 7 goals and 1 assist - Jairzinho scored in every single game of the tournament while tormenting his full backs with his blistering pace and dribbling. On the other side a slightly forgotten Rivelino provided 3 goals and 3 assists through out the tournament as well.

I've covered this at length already.

1. Pelé isn't there,

2. There's no altitude (which is particularly detrimental of counterattacking sides)

3. You are not playing a side that played 120 mins (all of them, to the wire) at high altitude only a few days ago. You seem completely oblivious to what that does to a player in terms of muscle fatigue and how their bodies get consumed as the greater energy requirements draw on ever available reserve. My boy agent Enzo for instance once lost 7kg in one such game.

4. Jairzinho's nickname is "O Furacão da Copa" for a reason: it was completely uncharacteristic of him and took everyone in Brazil by surprise. In 1974, without Pelé running the show he went to his normal non-hurricane tricky winger self.

5. Rivelino will be looking to play in the same inside left space which both Enzo and Didí favour. Sounds like a clusterfeck to me with those three trying to create something boxed between Andrade-Abbadie-Varela (all played together) and Scirea to boot. He will have no impact whatsoever on this game.
 
I really dislike how any fullback who can attack suddenly becomes liability in the back or can not provide his usual attacking game. Facchetti in this game, for example - yes, he revolutionized the position but he was one heck of a defender at the same time. But if you have Facchetti/Brehme suddenly you are vulnerable at the back :annoyed:

There are very few fullbacks in history of the game that can provide world-class attacking game while still being awesome at the back, and Facchetti is surely one of them. More so, the usual LWB-RCB catenaccio scheme wasn't that flat, mostly it was that way, but sometimes (not often) Burgnich bursted forward while Facchetti stayed back, making this more like a RWB-LCB situation - he was very capable

I wouldn't say that myself and I myself conceded that Facchetti is better defensively than N.Santos, although they were on level footing all things considered. It's just that C.Alberto-Jairzinho make for a monstrous pairing and it's ultimately a pairing which scored two goals against Facchetti in the WC 1970 final.

C.Alberto is perfect for Jairzinho and a phenomenally complete FB, as he was comfortable venturing forward in a supporting manner when needed (not necessarily overlapping) and also was capable of staying back and dictating things, spraying the ball around. In the final, he played a brilliant supporting role, fully capitalising on the acres of space between Facchetti and Boninsegna*, whilst Facchetti was man-marking and was occupied with Jairzinho. Facchetti is being asked to shut down Jairzinho here and also to contribute to the attack (as he is the sole player on anto's left flank in his usual La Grande Inter role). Boninsegna can contribute to the flank dropping back but he was primarily a center forward and the further away from the goal he is, the better.

There's also the issue which was brought up earlier - but which went unaddressed, I think - of Carlos Alberto bombing forward here to do a double-up act on Facchetti with Jairzinho: Lose possession in that scenario and the speed of Facchetti either with or without the ball down a now unprotected flank (relatively speaking, of course) has to be considered.

That's the intelligence of C.Alberto as I addressed above, he wasn't a Cafu/Dani Alves who had to burst forward to the byline to make an impact. He was much more cultured and calculated than that. He was a top notch supporting full-back who knew when to attack and when to dictate play from the back and was hardly, if ever, caught out of position.

This is in just the first 12 minutes of the match...


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Carries forward the ball unopposed before being given plenty of room to cross

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Once again finds plenty of room to look up and pick a pass

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With Facchetti being occupied with Jairzinho yet again, he finds plenty of room to put in another cross

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Plays a lovely through ball into the box

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Tostao almost nicks in a fantastic driven low ball.

(Also notice how he mixes up low driven balls/crosses and high crosses (in fact he messes up the high ones but is spot on with the lower ones), so one doesn't have to be aerially dominant to take advantage of service from wider areas. Never really got that rhetoric anyway. Also Enzo wasn't too bad in the air, as you can see for yourself in the vid in the OP.)

You can check the first 12 minutes of the match yourself, if you find it hard to believe. If that isn't an area in which anto's system can't be exploited, nothing can ever be. Ultimately it was that flank which resulted in 2 of the 4 goals Brazil scored in the final. Almost every single attack went through there and C.Alberto did brilliantly to exploit that gaping hole with Jairzinho occupying Facchetti. Anto has better defensive cover here no doubt (with the likes of Goncalves, who still has to contend with Tigana mind), but leaving C.Alberto free for most of the game unattended, would be nothing short of criminal.

Once again, to quote Miguel Delaney.

In the perfect World Cup, Jairzinho had the perfect record. With seven goals in six games, the winger is the only player in tournament history to score in every match.

But, as with all of the true greats, that is much more than a mere stat.

For a start, there was the remarkable range of goals. Against Czechoslovakia, he expertly lifted the ball over the keeper before finishing and then later beat three players. Against England, he powered it over Gordon Banks first time. Against Romania, he flicked one in.

Secondly, there the was the all-round play that so improved Brazil’s overall game. While his pace did give them a potent outlet – and he spent hours with Gerson trying to perfect timed runs on the midfielder’s calibrated cross-field balls – his own superb passing also added to the side’s dazzling angles of attack.

It was Jairzinho’s exceptional at-pace cross, after all, that brought such a fine save from Banks for Pele’s header. And it was all the more remarkable given the manner in which he ran onto Carlos Alberto’s ball.

And Jairzinho was much more than the indulged, pacy forward who demands through-balls. In the final itself, he showed an under-acknowledged tactical acumen by continually moving into the centre to draw out Giacinto Facchetti and leave the right side free for Carlos Alberto to rampage down.
 
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Won't be back for a few hours and hopefully Annah can step in till then. If not then, till next time.
 
In the final, he played a brilliant supporting role, fully capitalising on the acres of space between Facchetti and Boninsegna*, whilst Facchetti was man-marking and was occupied with Jairzinho. Facchetti is being asked to shut down Jairzinho here and also to contribute to the attack (as he is the sole player on anto's left flank in his usual La Grande Inter role). Boninsegna can contribute to the flank dropping back but he was primarily a center forward and the further away from the goal he is, the better.

I've already told you Cubillas usually dropped into the left-to-centre space to receive. He'll keep an eye and not make it wide open space. He wasn't the most hardworking midfielder defensively, that I admit, but it's not like he isn't there at all either.

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Carries forward the ball unopposed before being given plenty of room to cross

Shit cross

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Once again finds plenty of room to look up and pick a pass

Meh, he can do that all game long AFAIC as you don't have four forwards to aim for but three and they are all taken good care of.

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With Facchetti being occupied with Jairzinho yet again, he finds plenty of room to put in another cross

Figueroa and Scirea will deal with those at ease since you don't have an actual centreforward or two central attacking players. And there you were asking me what the relevance of that is and how yours was a passing side inspired by the very roots of samba so you didn't need to resort to high balls... Every team can do with them, and my team can defend against them effectively and has the players who can attack the ball and beat your defenders aerially. You don't, therein lies the problem.


Again, meh.


Better, but keeper's ball all day long. I'd expect Facchetti to pick him up here anyway. At that point he is the fullback's man, and Facchetti doesn't need to go anywhere since the rest of my defence can deal with Jairzinho if he moves infield. There's no Pelé and Tostão to keep tabs on so I have spare players.

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Plays a lovely through ball into the box

That's a through ball? It didn't go through anyone, just a forward pass, intercepted.

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Tostao almost nicks in a fantastic driven low ball.

Again, that would be for Giacinto to deal with him. He isn't assigned to man-marking Jairzinho, there's no need for that here.

So basically it's either early crosses (which I can deal with for fun) or he will run into Facchetti (as he hasn't been told to man-mark Jairzinho). I don't see a 2 v 1 in any of those, which is the story I've been hearing about all game.

Incidentally, that sort of cross from deep is the same sort I expect from Abbadie, except that Roberto Boninsegna will hand Mauro Ramos'arse back on a plate.

I have a proper centreforward, you don't. Crosses are a clear weapon for me, they aren't for you.
 
Thanks @antohan , there's some great stuff there.

Here's that article translated if anyone wants to read. I'm about halfway through, it's not short!

Thanks diarm, sorry I didn't have the time to translate it properly or shorten it. Hope you enjoyed it anyway!

GENOA FAN ARTICLE ON ABBADIE

It's written by a Genoa fan whose dream for almost 50 years was to meet Abbadie, his childhood hero, in person. So in 2004 he just jumped on a plane for a trip that takes about 18hs each way and costs about two grand. Good thing he doesn't play drafts on here or Annah's argument on him being shit would fall on its arse.

Genoa fan said:
Abbadie was really from another planet, and changed, with the way he plays, the way I understand football. Football as art. Art and intelligence. Here, in two words, is the message of Abbadie. A clear message of the South American school.

[After the World Cup in 1954] specialized commentators had put Abbadie in the Ideal World XI, and as fans we obviously knew. Therefore, the news of his purchase, in that unforgettable summer of '56, broke a lot of enthusiasm.

Abbadie exhibited an extremely high level of class. For two years, even though he lacked the support of the midfield (which had been dismembered before his arrival, and never rebuilt), to the point that often, he had to do it all the midfield's work by himself (he could play as a 7, as an 8 or as a 9). Abbadie delighted his many fans with performances of rare intelligence technique and refined talent.

His style was unique. Running strides, tall, very elegant movements, holding the ball at least a meter forward. It always seemed that the marker could anticipate it, and yet at the last moment it was as if they removed themselves to let him pass. It took me some time to grasp that imperceptible fake body that Abbadie performed at full speed, thanks to which he regularly left defenders for dead. His dribbling was one of the most beautiful and spectacular things I've ever seen on the football field...

Abbadie was a nightmare, not only for the poor Morin. It was also for the whole Sampdoria, in the famous derby 1 November of '57, known to history as "the derby of Abbadie". That day Genoa entered the field with only one point in the tables, last and far from everyone, and with a very small team. Over the 90 mins the great uruguayan champion deliveered Corso and Firottto with a dozen balls that only needed to be pushed into the net. Many they missed but three slipped, allowing the fans to raise their heads at the city level.

He made his marker sprain an ankle with his dribbling, at which point the Sampdoria coach decided to get his best player on his case: Ernst Ocwirk. Seeing that he wasn't stopping him, he indicated he should get tighter to him and the whole stadium saw how Ocwirk waved his arms indicating there was nothing that could be done to stop him.
 
I liked this "gif summary of 15mins" from Joga, good work! Then I figured: "Wait a minute... Gento played left wing, right? And he couldn't score or assist against Peñarol for 180 minutes of foootball. Hmmm, I've lost count of how many times he has been picked so he must be a very good player according to Annah!"

So let's see how Abbadie went about things against one of the most successful wingers in history. Just the first 15 minutes, I need to go to bed!

Roque Gastón Máspoli said:
Against Real, we just nullified the most important players they had. Primarily because I had players that, when given a role they performed it just like I had planned. In that sense Abbadie was essential. I had Abbadie playing as a fourth midfielder, making play from the right and deciding whether it was more appropriate for him to cross from deep, or advance, or release Forlán. He was a fantastic player, very intelligent, always made the right decision.

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Shepherding Gento to a dead end, then dispossessing him.

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Intercepts ball, runs at defence, dribbles one, good tackle from the CB

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Real try to attack down Gento's flank, watch Abbadie's discipline keeping the shape. Nothing rash, just controlling the situation and ensuring it ends up in a dead end. Real players sense the trap and bugger off to try elsewhere.

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Yet again, good positioning, tracks the play and takes his opportunity to intercept, recycles and sprints for the forward pass.

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Now Abbadie was upfield after taking a corner and Real tried a long ball for Amancio. Tito runs back to cover though.

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Real send Amancio to double-up with Gento to penetrate that right flank. Look at how easily he dictates what Amancio does. No blood and thunder, just good positioning leading him to a harmless pass and recovery of possession as the rightback does his job and keeps Gento away from the receiving end.

Defending really is a simple art when you have the right players, well drilled in their roles and familiar with each other. Just like Abbbadie says that in open space the attacker has the advantage, in tight spaces the defenders do. Simple logic, simple ideas, simple football. But devastating.

Abbadie said:
I found it quite easy to adapt to a right midfield job. One thing I always hated about being a winger was how I had to deal with two man-markers: the fullback and the line. The line always worked as an extra marker, as a limitation to my movements, so I never allowed my markers to get me in that tight spot. I took them on, run straight at them, and at the very last moment, made a quick dribble and I was off because I had the advantage of those couple of metres advantage as the defender turned. So as a midfielder I knew what to do, I had to use that line that used to be my enemy as an ally

PS: Awesome, this bump just cost me a vote by some randomer.
 
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At the risk of losing yet another vote to a random sleepless scanvoter, let's look at Teófilo Cubillas.

I'm told he lacks creativity and doesn't have the passing or playmaking ability to do any damage here.

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Notice how easily he can pass in any direction in an instant. Not sure how Zito is going to stop him influencing the game when he has almost half the pitch to receive in.

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That's exactly why I want a direct ball-carrying AM!

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Assist

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Yeah, he clearly struggles with this progressive passing malarkey.

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Surely Altafini can make good use of that sort of ball? No?

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Could come handy this. When counter-attacking these shots are more common than when playing in tight spaces.

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This too I reckon.

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And here he is occupying that huge gap between Facchetti and Boninsegna. It shouldn't be allowed! That's for Torres to use, not Cubillas :mad:
 
OK, so Joga and Annah have been banging on all day about how awesome that Brazilian defence was in 1962.

As far as I could remember, it was the usual masterclass in shocking and erratic defending the Brazilians got away with by outscoring the opposition.

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So I went back to the semifinal against Chile to have a look at the goals.

First goal, meh, Zito foul outside the box and a cracking free kick.

So I start looking for the second and watching just ten minutes I get all these:

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First thing I find is Zito doing the exact same foul. AGAIN. And then I'm told Facchetti's fouls will be an issue :rolleyes:

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Then an example of just how good Mauro Ramos is aerially. Beaten to the ball by a midget, and he isn't even aware he will get beaten. Or bothered.

He is facing Boninsegna, a Riva/Vieri-type centreforward. Good luck with that.

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Number 7 didn't have much trouble getting the ball past Santos' ballerina step. Then handball by Zozimo, that "sweeper that complimented Ramos perfectly". Just looks a naive defender to me.

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With the game at 3-2, Nilton seems to be doing some sort of lamp post impersonation. The big question though is, what the hell was Mauro Ramos doing all the way out there pressing the first guy on the ball? He runs back turning every now and then, then wanders around the box. Clueless defending.

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This is EXACTLY the sort of ball Boninsegna will knock down for Altafini. Notice how easy it is. Moreover, notice Mauro Ramos isn't even challenging, he is the complete mentalist of a CB who appears at the end trying to get back and close down the guy who has a free shot at goal. :wenger:

So I go to check the final, as I had some recollection that it also was a great example of shocking defending.
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That's absolutely horrendous. Masopust of all people running into an empty box like that :lol:

Where's Mauro Ramos? He is the nutter running from the semicircle who ends up in no man's land, as the pass goes right past him and into the huge gaping hole he has left behind.

He is shocking. I'm changing my tune, I'm scoring more than two here.
 
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You calling those gifs meh after those hilarious Goncalves gifs you posted :lol:

How are they hilarious? Different from your Carlos Alberto ones, they resulted in goals being scored. That's the point, remember? Not fancy tekkers.

BTW, noticed you voted me, sneaky!
 
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I was going to vote for Joga simply based on the fact I don't know much at all about most of Anto's players, then having read the write-up, seems unfair to vote like that.

So probably won't vote in this... ;)
 
I really dislike how any fullback who can attack suddenly becomes liability in the back or can not provide his usual attacking game. Facchetti in this game, for example - yes, he revolutionized the position but he was one heck of a defender at the same time. But if you have Facchetti/Brehme suddenly you are vulnerable at the back :annoyed:

There are very few fullbacks in history of the game that can provide world-class attacking game while still being awesome at the back, and Facchetti is surely one of them. More so, the usual LWB-RCB catenaccio scheme wasn't that flat, mostly it was that way, but sometimes (not often) Burgnich bursted forward while Facchetti stayed back, making this more like a RWB-LCB situation - he was very capable
This.

It comes from the complete disregard of the fact that attacking and defensive phases are two different phases of play(TM). The 2 on 1 being banged on about here is completely imaginary, to say the least, and the usual simplistic draft on paper mechanics argument. Facchetti is not only a great defender with great decision making on when to when to leave his post and go on a run (he inspired Beckenbauer ffs) he was also one of the fastest players of his generation. Assuming he has gone on an attacking run - by the time the oppo recovers the ball, looks to play it back and reach their attack, he will be easily, easily back in his position, defenders do that all the feckng time in every football game. It isn't rocket science. That is assuming the ball hasn't gone out for a goal kick or a corner. The closest they can come to catching Giacinto off guard is hoofing it straight up to land at Jairzinho e.g. and a) that's a shit way to play with Jairzinho in the team and b) the other defenders won't stand like idiots with the ball in the air and the closest man will come to contest the headers, and in the next second or two Facchetti will be back on his heels. I mean, it isn't just this game, it happens in every single game where a defender is also going on an attack, anyone who has watched professional football for 5 minutes will let you know how obvious this is. And here is a man who pioneered this style of play, and made it work like no other, yet somehow he's leaving acres of space every second minute.
 
The gif overload on this page :lol:

Cracking match up and fair play to anto for holding his own with much more unknown players.
 
The gif overload on this page :lol:

Cracking match up and fair play to anto for holding his own with much more unknown players.

I've actually stayed up all night doing that just because I like the whole concept of:

1) Having people know more about my players, that's the entire point of picking them in the first place!

2) Cutting all the crap being spouted like "Cubillas can't pass", "You lack creativity", "Abbadie must be crap because no one ever picked him", "Your strikers won't score because my Brazilian defence is awesome", etc.

3) I quite like the notion of outgifing the GifMeister.
 
I hope Joga hasn't gone to try find gifs that portray Scirea or Figueroa as hapless defenders in the Mauro Ramos mould. He is going to miss the derby, probably the entire season.
 
I've actually stayed up all night doing that just because I like the whole concept of:

1) Having people know more about my players, that's the entire point of picking them in the first place!

2) Cutting all the crap being spouted like "Cubillas can't pass", "You lack creativity", "Abbadie must be crap because no one ever picked him", "Your strikers won't score because my Brazilian defence is awesome", etc.

3) I quite like the notion of outgifing the GifMeister.
you are winning!!! absolutely brilliant job so far! you are a legend :)
 
The 2 on 1 being banged on about here is completely imaginary, to say the least, and the usual simplistic draft on paper mechanics argument.

:lol::lol::lol:

@antohan have to go now and won't be back till the end of the game. Great game regardless of the result.