ALL issues relating to the bond issue and club finances

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Exactly. One of the best posts in this thread.

The problem is that there are a quite a number of people on here who couldn't careless about the real facts & figures or indeed about what would actually be the consequences of a boycott and so are quite willing to just spout utter nonsense and conspiracy theories presumably in the hope of persuading as many people as possible to boycott the club. They're desperate for the Glazers and the club to fail seemingly just so they can claim to be proven ''right'' about the Glazers. They are fantasists and idealists who, quite contrary to what they claim, do not have the best interests of the club at heart.

These people quite clearly aren't to be taken seriously by anyone considering whether or not to renew their season ticket based on the financial situation at the club.

While some of what you have said here is true, behaving in a condescending manner does not constitute an argument, either. I absolutely agree that some people have largely discredited themselves through their eagerness to find problems where there are none, and to, I would suggest, unintentionally, unless shown otherwise, misrepresent what are matters of fact. However, I can also understand the frustration with the continued insistence on sticking to matters of fact, when it's perfectly reasonable to evaluate facts for the purposes of inference, particularly when this is common practice in all areas of business and economics.

The irony in all of this is that there's actually no need to discover that the club is in financial trouble to justify considerable anger and opposition to the current owners. It's perfectly reasonable, for example, to not wish to pay off their debt for them, and there's absolutely nothing that you or anyone else could possibly say, unless of course it relates to that point, which would contradict that.

The saddest aspect of all of this is that we should all be on the same side, even if some people are happy with, or at the very least, ambivalent towards, the current ownership model. Nobody should be prepared to purposely misrepresent the known facts in order to make a point, and nobody should be prepared to accuse them of doing so, unless they can present considerable evidence which shows that it is the case.
 
That is wrong mate. I am certainly no accountant and am most definately not as clued up as many on here when it comes to finance, but it doesn't take a brain surgeon to work out that the Glazers and subsequently Manchester United are in serious financial trouble.

Has there been strong talk about match boycotting over the ever increasing match day and season ticket prices? No. For years fans have been unhappy about that haven't they? Yet grudgingly that's been accepted by the majority. And it's Because they love the club and can't bare the thought of not watching the team.

Match boycotting has only been talked about because fans are worried about the security and the future of the club they love.

I applauded those that will stand up to the cnuts that have put our club in this position.

That's just nonsense though. Neither the club or the Glazers are in serious financial trouble. The Glazers may well lose some of the equity they have tied up in their shopping centers, but we're talking about £10m or so at most which has to be looked at in the context of the family having a net worth of over £1bn.

Manchester United Football Club couldn't be anything further from being in ''serious financial trouble'' and I have outlined why that's the case extensively by focussing on both the club's operating performance and also its ability to service its borrowings. The people who are convinced that £70m will leave the club to repay part of the PIK loan, are seemingly unable or unwilling to appreciate that the club can easily do just that and still very much remain in a perfectly strong financial position.

The same people also react very aggressively when anyone dares to point out that new sponsorship deals have been agreed and that the club's commercial revenue is set to grow at a very fast pace in the years to come.

As I say, those people are not to be taken seriously. They remind me of the people on the left wing of the Labour Party/right wing of the Tory Party. They shout a lot, make lots of noise, but when it really comes down to it the vast majority of people just think they're pretty weird and so those people's ideas tend to be a complete irrelevance to what actually happens.
 
They remind me of the people on the left wing of the Labour Party/right wing of the Tory Party. They shout a lot, make lots of noise, but when it really comes down to it the vast majority of people just think they're pretty weird and so those people's ideas tend to be a complete irrelevance to what actually happens.

Interesting analogy, but you've seriously misplaced yourself in it. If Fred and Ralphie are militant tendency, then you're way out past UKIP somewhere.
 
U tell me? Read the Guardian article. Isnt it great that I have inspired you into becoming a regular caf poster?

You made the point, you should back it .

I am a member here quite a long time, I'm not a prolific poster but I visit most days to have read. This thread has inspired me to post a little more because like many users here I want to know the reality of Manchester United financial situation and not the slant either side of the argument wish to put on it.
 
It was stated in the bond issue prospectus that they plan to set up a £6m management services agreement with the club and would not draw on the additional £3m available to cover general corporate expenses. We'll have to wait for the year ending June 30 2010 accounts to see if that's what has happened.

Where does it say that in the prospectus they will not draw the additional 3m?
 
GCHQ mate as I said earlier I'm no financial whizz kid, I will bow to people like you's financial knowledge.

I just found it extremely worrying when I read that our owners were 1.1 billion in debt! I just can't see how that doesn't affect Manchester united.
 
GCHQ mate as I said earlier I'm no financial whizz kid, I will bow to people like you's financial knowledge.

I just found it extremely worrying when I read that our owners were 1.1 billion in debt! I just can't see how that doesn't affect Manchester united.

You know something that about sums up the whole thread.
 
GCHQ mate as I said earlier I'm no financial whizz kid, I will bow to people like you's financial knowledge.

I just found it extremely worrying when I read that our owners were 1.1 billion in debt! I just can't see how that doesn't affect Manchester united.

Nobody here knows how or even if it will affect Manchster United. It may force them to sell which will suit a lot of people. Thing is, sell to who? A sale could leave the club in a worse situation than it currently is?
 
Nobody here knows how or even if it will affect Manchster United. It may force them to sell which will suit a lot of people. Thing is, sell to who? A sale could leave the club in a worse situation than it currently is?

This is true. Am I right in saying that even the red knights are/were looking borrow money to buy the club? If this is the case surely we'd be back to square one?
 
This is true. Am I right in saying that even the red knights are/were looking borrow money to buy the club? If this is the case surely we'd be back to square one?

They were definitely keeping the bonds they announced that
 
That's just nonsense though. Neither the club or the Glazers are in serious financial trouble. The Glazers may well lose some of the equity they have tied up in their shopping centers, but we're talking about £10m or so at most which has to be looked at in the context of the family having a net worth of over £1bn.

Looks like the goal posts have been moved. Originally the Glazer business plan was, according to Must et. al., supposed to collapse within a few years of the takeover. Since those dire predictions have proven to be false both in practice and on paper the need to dump on the Glazers has moved to their other businesses.

Just a few thoughts on what I've read today in the papers. The Guardian reports that 63 of the 64 properties First Allied lists on its' website have mortgages. Five (5) of those, or 8%, are in default. Given that the four currently in receivership have not led to a cascade failure in First Allied's business it seems reasonable to assume that the malls are financed largely as stand-alone mortgages. Thoughts?

There also appears to be a general surprise that the Glazers borrowed against its properties the original 275-million pounds. To me it seems reasonable since I would be surprised if the Glazers had that amount sitting in a chequing account.
 
Looks like the goal posts have been moved. Originally the Glazer business plan was, according to Must et. al., supposed to collapse within a few years of the takeover. Since those dire predictions have proven to be false both in practice and on paper the need to dump on the Glazers has moved to their other businesses.

Just a few thoughts on what I've read today in the papers. The Guardian reports that 63 of the 64 properties First Allied lists on its' website have mortgages. Five (5) of those, or 8%, are in default. Given that the four currently in receivership have not led to a cascade failure in First Allied's business it seems reasonable to assume that the malls are financed largely as stand-alone mortgages. Thoughts?

There also appears to be a general surprise that the Glazers borrowed against its properties the original 275-million pounds. To me it seems reasonable since I would be surprised if the Glazers had that amount sitting in a chequing account.


Agree with all of that but especially the part in Bold....MUST have been getting desperate ever since their original diagnosis proved to be about as amateurish an attempt at financial guesswork as you can get, Glazers will have to sell within 3 years they told us…ooops a daisy.

Personally speaking MUST lost all credibility yonks ago for me, they’ve time and time again made bold baseless speculative statements that have dramatically failed to come to fruition and left them red faced, hence the desperate change of attack….a desperate measure it would seem.
 
The relevant terms & conditions of the restricted payment have been quoted in this thread already:

''We may, without restriction, make a distribution or loan of up to £70.0 million to our immediate parent company, Red Football Joint Venture Limited, that may, in turn, use the proceeds of that loan for general corporate purposes, including repaying existing indebtedness.''

RFJV Limited is only allowed to use Red Football Limited's cash to repay its own exisiting indebtedness (PIK loan). The PIK loan covenants would also quite obviously not allow cash from Red Football Limited to go out of RFJV to repay debt in other parts of the Glazers business empire..

I'll repeat a question that was given to you earlier.

Where does it say they cannot do that. Dont sit there saying we should only deal in cold hard facts if you cannot back that up yourself.

Provide us with conclusive evidence that they are not permitted to take the money from RFJV and pay it to the parent company. I will refer you to Andersreds comments on what they can take out the club

1.Pay an immediate dividend to Red Football Joint Venture Ltd of £70m (page 130 note 13).
2.Pay an additional dividend to Red Football Joint Venture Ltd of £25m whenever they wish (page 130 note 14).
3.Transfer Carrington (for free) to another Glazer company, sell it and let the new owners lease it back to the club (page 78 and onto 79 "Real Property").
4.Pay £6m a year to the Glazers in management fees (page 100).
5.Pay £3m a year in "general corporate expenses" to Glazer companies (page 129 note 10b).
6.If EBITDA is at least twice the interest bill, pay 50% of the net cash profits of the club to parent companies in dividends (page 127 note c(i)).


Note that at least THREE of them are quite non-specific about what companies the payments may go to.

So your little notion that they can only pay a small amount to RFJV is actually far from the truth, unless you are telling us Andersred has got it wrong.

God knows where you've all got the idea that the Glazers can use the cash channeled up to RFJV to repay indebtedness in their other companies. It seems to be a theory that dear old Fred has dreamt up and you've foolishly decided to run with it.

Andy Green certainly hasn't made that argument. His argument is that the Glazers don't have the necessary finance outside of Red Football Limited to repay/service the PIK loan held by RFJV Limited..

They dont have the necessary finance outside of United to finance ANY debt repayments, be it at Tampa, First Allied or anywhere else come to that matter.


Although tellingly he makes very little mention of the Buccs franchise which has an asset value of somewhere in the region of $800m with reported debt of just $95m and with cash earnings of $69m last year. If any cash is going to recapitalise First Allied Corporation then it is likely to be coming from the Tampa Bay Buccs although that is mere speculation without seeing the relevant accounts/financial statements.

Reported debts of $143 million according to Forbes ( you know that company you so frequently rely on for your valuation of United.. are you telling us now they dont provide valid statistics ), with a capped debt allowance by the NFL of $150 million. Perhaps you are disputing Andersred again. If so I would suggest you post on his blog telling him how hes got it wrong and provide the correct figures.

And also, if you did a bit of research you would know that owners of NFL franchises are only permittted to use a certain percentage of their revenues from respective teams to assist other business ventures. Why do you think they couldnt use the buccs as assets with which to gain further shares in United. SImply because they were not permitted to do so. Just the same as they wouldnt be permitted to use the buccs revenue to bolster first allied.
 
Fair play to Fred for talking sense all through this thread even though he got constant abuse. He can hold his head high while the post rate of the Glazer Holy Trinity has unsurprisingly diminished
 
Fair play to Fred for talking sense all through this thread even though he got constant abuse. He can hold his head high while the post rate of the Glazer Holy Trinity has unsurprisingly diminished

Holy trinity ?

Do you mean the deathly duo...

:D
 
bottom line is - profit is not enough to support paying off debt, investing in squad and keeping Glazers happy with hefty paychecks

something's gotta give and it seems to me it'll be that bloody investing in squad and success on the field thingy
Also a bonus comes up for Glazers in the near future when SAF calls it quits. Then we could find out if their business plan works without CL football and trophies.
 
bottom line is - profit is not enough to support paying off debt, investing in squad and keeping Glazers happy with hefty paychecks
something's gotta give and it seems to me it'll be that bloody investing in squad and success on the field thingy
Also a bonus comes up for Glazers in the near future when SAF calls it quits. Then we could find out if their business plan works without CL football and trophies.

Who needs profit.

All three are easily manageable..

If they keep borrowing the money to do it..
 
feck.. its been leaked..

Oh well, may as well fill you all in.

Would you all like to put your hands together and welcome

EASTSTAND375..

Someone who similarly posted on Red Issue, and for one reason or another set about trying to tell everyone how bad MUST was, and how the Glazers were not a threat to United, and everything was hunky dory.

Everyone suspected, but were not sure, that he was in fact a paid employee of the club, sent on the forum to discredit MUST and thus hopefully turn people away from the campaign and stop them from boycotting.

The moderators offered to publicly support him, if he could prove he was not in the employment of Manchester United. He refused to give them that proof, and thus he was instantly banned from the main forum and banished forever to the newbies.

I knew ages ago that they were one and the same person, however it wasnt until someone leaked it on one of Andersreds blogs, and someone else posted that he was now on Redcafe..

Why do you think I was so interested in him.. I knew instantly that he was in fact nothing more than a glazer loving parasite, here with the sole intention of trying to get people to turn against MUST.

Yup ladies and gentlemen,

Please put your hands together and welcome

GCHQ

GLAZER CAMPAIGN HEAD QUARTERS
 
and here is a direct quote from a well respected poster on Red issue that sums it up

Apart from anything else, the fact that that weaseley Eastand character is working round the clock across several forums trying to convince as many people as possible that "its ok - you dont need to bother your pretty little heads reading all that - everything is safe - the piks can never be the responsibility of the club - take my word for it" should tell you something.

Who the feck could swear that on their life unless they were a lawyer. But who would bother to spend so much time trying to spin it that there is no danger bother to unless they had an agenda to make as many people as possible look the other way like numpties. He is working for the club working his butt of to get people to give up and look the other way. Renew so we can bleed you stupid ignorant cnuts dry for a bit longer. Thats the clear message.

Why would any one regular person spend so much time trying to prove the Glazers are honest and decent ? How could any one regular person claim to know that anyway ? Yet he is busting his balls to convince people of that.

A lot of people are gonna feel very stupid if they get duped into any kind of false sense of security. Keep telling yourself it might be ok ? fecking hell lads.

How much fecking evidence do people need to realise that the Glazers will feck anyone and everything in their path. Morals ? Forget it.

What possible reason have they managed to give anyone that they might turn out to be upright human being with a sense of fair play both in business terms and in ethical terms ? The only effort they have made to that end is sending the eastand character onto the internet round the clock spreading lies and distractions. I have to admit - that IS working. It is working on the people who would prefer to believe everything is fine and would prefer not to think about it and would prefer to believe that the Glazers havent already, are not and will not continue to rape the heart and soul out of the club.

They are like the stupid feckwit battered wives you see nursing their latest black eyes and muttering to themselves that "he might change one day" if I just give him one more chance.

Seriously anyone who has not got the brains in their head to see clearly through Eastands motives working his arse off to decieve you on this doesnt deserve the vote. That goes for here or redcafe or anywhere. There is deception aplenty from the Glazer camp hoping to deceive enough suckers.
 
feck.. its been leaked..Oh well, may as well fill you all in.
Would you all like to put your hands together and welcome EASTSTAND375..
Someone who similarly posted on Red Issue, and for one reason or another set about trying to tell everyone how bad MUST was, and how the Glazers were not a threat to United, and everything was hunky dory.
Everyone suspected, but were not sure, that he was in fact a paid employee of the club, sent on the forum to discredit MUST and thus hopefully turn people away from the campaign and stop them from boycotting.
Thank God that mystery is solved. I don't read Red Issue and don't intend to so I would have been completely in the dark without the detective work.

The moderators offered to publicly support him, if he could prove he was not in the employment of Manchester United. He refused to give them that proof, and thus he was instantly banned from the main forum and banished forever to the newbies.
This is just sad. We now have to prove we are not in the employ of the club we support in order to post on an internet forum. I think that's the most depressing thing I've read all day. I could delve into hyperbole and refer to it as Stalinist behaviour, but I won't.

Why do you think I was so interested in him...
I don't know and I make no judgements.

I knew instantly that he was in fact nothing more than a glazer loving parasite, here with the sole intention of trying to get people to turn against MUST.
I don't think you understand what parasite means. Must have cut their own cloth, those of us that are grown-ups can decide for ourselves thank you.
 
There seems to be a George W Bush attitude here -- you are either with me or against me mentality here. Yet we are assuming that we are all United fans and want best for the club.
 
feck.. its been leaked..

Oh well, may as well fill you all in.

Would you all like to put your hands together and welcome

EASTSTAND375..

Someone who similarly posted on Red Issue, and for one reason or another set about trying to tell everyone how bad MUST was, and how the Glazers were not a threat to United, and everything was hunky dory.

Everyone suspected, but were not sure, that he was in fact a paid employee of the club, sent on the forum to discredit MUST and thus hopefully turn people away from the campaign and stop them from boycotting.

The moderators offered to publicly support him, if he could prove he was not in the employment of Manchester United. He refused to give them that proof, and thus he was instantly banned from the main forum and banished forever to the newbies.

I knew ages ago that they were one and the same person, however it wasnt until someone leaked it on one of Andersreds blogs, and someone else posted that he was now on Redcafe..

Why do you think I was so interested in him.. I knew instantly that he was in fact nothing more than a glazer loving parasite, here with the sole intention of trying to get people to turn against MUST.

Yup ladies and gentlemen,

Please put your hands together and welcome

GCHQ

GLAZER CAMPAIGN HEAD QUARTERS

Thank god for that, people need to be protected from any opinion thats not singing from the MUST hymn sheet at all costs.

Banning people for having different opinions to the mods is something the caf gets accused of all the time.
 
That went down well fred. Expect a round of applause? Red issue is a pathetic forum full of knuckle dragging sheep. Fortunately people on here form their own conclusions. How does one prove they don't work for united and even if they do does it make them wrong? I've seen more sense from gchq on here not to mention evidence based analysis than you've ever offered. Ditto roodboy. How embarrassing for you. Saving it up for so long and everyone thinks you're the twat.
 
Is it? Not that I've seen...

Yep, there's a couple of posters (ironically RI regulars as far as I know) who constantly accuse the mods of starting witch hunts against posters who dont share their opinions......

Anyway, back to the topic....
 
Yep, there's a couple of posters (ironically RI regulars as far as I know) who constantly accuse the mods of starting witch hunts against posters who dont share their opinions......

Anyway, back to the topic....

Ah, frequently accused by a couple of people maybe. But for most I think the caf is acknowledged as allowing and repsecting a much greater spectrum of opinion than most other forums of United or other clubs.
 
wait a minute - I thought I was GCHQ? I am relieved that I am not, Fred had me worried there for a bit.

Pretty shameful that RI will ban posters just because they dont like what they have to say - I'm glad the Caf is more open minded.
 
How does one prove they don't work for united and even if they do does it make them wrong?

The first part is pretty much impossible, you're right. And I'm not sure asking people to prove they don't is the right avenue to go down.

But regarding the second question - if, in theory, it did come to light that a poster was working for United and had hidden the fact, then surely you can see how that would utterly discredit their "blanced objective opinions"?
I know I'd be pretty furious if I'd formed an opinion based on what that poster had said, only to find out they were being paid to push a certain agenda.
 
'Working for united' and 'being paid to push a certain agenda' are not the same thing.

Does every united employee have the same opinion or are they not individuals with different opinions like the rest of us? Do you have to be a united employee to be a glazer stooge pushing an agenda?
 
The first part is pretty much impossible, you're right. And I'm not sure asking people to prove they don't is the right avenue to go down.

But regarding the second question - if, in theory, it did come to light that a poster was working for United and had hidden the fact, then surely you can see how that would utterly discredit their "blanced objective opinions"?
I know I'd be pretty furious if I'd formed an opinion based on what that poster had said, only to find out they were being paid to push a certain agenda.
Provide a works landline, scan of your payslip, genuine email signature, etc. If he didn't work for United then what reason would he have to hide the fact?
 
Pretty shameful that RI will ban posters just because they dont like what they have to say.

There's a difference between banning posters just because they dont like what they have to say, and bannig them because they have deliberately lied about their situation and motives for posting. I've seen plenty of people banned for pretending to be United fans, only to turn out to be other teams' fans "undercover".

However, in the case of the caf, you're right that its slowness to ban is one of its strengths, and I'd like to hope that, if somebody were to turn out to be a "plant" such as teh alleged RI situation, they wouldn't actually be banned but would be allowed to stay so that they could be ridiculed and their entire argument taken apart, a la Nick Griffin on Question Time.
 
'Working for united' and 'being paid to push a certain agenda' are not the same thing.

Does every united employee have the same opinion or are they not individuals with different opinions like the rest of us?

Yes, but if you a) constantly spend all your time and effort trying to undermine the Anti-Glazer movement, and b) hide the fact that you work for United then you fall into the latter category.
 
Provide a works landline, scan of your payslip, genuine email signature, etc. If he didn't work for United then what reason would he have to hide the fact?

The problem with measures like that is they can easily be turned around (as has happened in the last few posts - see the Stalin comparisons) and used against the people asking for them, and so become self defeating.

It's a bit like the balance that has to be struck with stuff like anti-terrorist security measures. You could strip search everybody that goes through an airport with a Muslim sounding name, but it would just lead to more resentment and work in the terrorist favour.

An no, I'm not calling GCHQ and Roodboy terrorists before one of the shool-children pipes up.
 
Christ, this forum is a write-off if people are accusing posters of being "plants" for Glazer because they take a different view.

It's bad enough that certain posters were complaining about "big words" and "complicated figures" being used in this thread. Can't we leave the knuckle-dragging to Red issue?

It's a football forum on the internet! If it upsets you that somebody somewhere is writing something you don't agree with then God help you!

Anything anyone writes here has zero impact in the real world!
You're not actually giving Glazer one in the eye by trying to get some poster on RedCafe banned!
 
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