ALL issues relating to the bond issue and club finances

[Pexbo]

What part of £700 million in debt so he can own the club needs explaining ?

Well if you actually read what has been said you would understand.

You're pissed off they took over, yes, we understand that and so are we.

We're simply trying to explain that the financial side of things is well and truely under control.

How many of your friends have taken out 6 figure mortgages on thier homes? Are they capable of paying off this in the space of 2 years? No?

Are they living a comfortable life while they continue to pay off this mortgage? They are?

Are you walking around moaning that they were so much better off before they took thier mortgage out because they weren't £200,000 in debt? Your not?... Why?.... Because it seems a bit silly doesn't it.

 

[Crerand Legend]

GCHQ I am wating to find out how I contradicted myself.

 

[fredthered]

In the absence of the Glazers and if we remained under the ownership structure prior to when the Glazers took over would we be a in a better position than we are now in?

with all due respect, but we are almost £800 million in debt and looking at pissing away over £60 million a year in interest and dividends. We have gone from one of the cheapest clubs for tickets in the PL to one of the most expensive, where everyone who attends Old Trafford is expected to be on the same income levels as someone who lives in Fulham.

Compare that to the PLC where the most we ever paid out in dividends was something in the region of £12 million in dividends, and the prices for tickets were 50% cheaper..

I think thats a no brainer..

 

[Sir A1ex]

The fact is they are good for the club and bad for the fans.

This is the core of the disagreement really.

They are good for the club in the sense that they have made the club into a better machine for making themselves money.

But to be honest I don't give a flying toss how good the club is at making money for them.

When I talks about what's good for the club, I am talking about what is good for the fans. The two can't be seperated.

 

[UnitedRoadRed]

Well if you actually read what has been said you would understand.

You're pissed off they took over, yes, we understand that and so are we.

We're simply trying to explain that the financial side of things is well and truely under control.

How many of your friends have taken out 6 figure mortgages on thier homes? Are they capable of paying off this in the space of 2 years? No?

Are they living a comfortable life while they continue to pay off this mortgage? They are?

Are you walking around moaning that they were so much better off before they took thier mortgage out because they weren't £200,000 in debt? Your not?... Why?.... Because it seems a bit silly doesn't it.

Are his friends now, instead of him just bringing some beer, charging him to come to their bbqs and if he misses 3 in a season he's not allowed back? That seems a bit silly doesn't it.

 

[Pexbo]

But the point is, you say people agree the Glazers are bad.

They wont believe that if you get hte likes of Roodboy and his cronies all making out that everything is fine, so theres nothing to worry about.

Any supporters from other clubs will be looking at this thread and thinking "this is so called rejection of the Glazers.. I'd call it more of an invitation to pop round for dinner"

You do realise what you are saying here is that you need to be spreading pure lies about what an awful financial state we are in just so anyone that might be ok with their ownership get's scared and starts wearing a green and gold scarf.

That's not what the G&G campain was suppsed to be about mate.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

But the point is, you say people agree the Glazers are bad.

They wont believe that if you get hte likes of Roodboy and his cronies all making out that everything is fine, so theres nothing to worry about.

Any supporters from other clubs will be looking at this thread and thinking "this is so called rejection of the Glazers.. I'd call it more of an invitation to pop round for dinner"

Why would they think that? GCHQ for example has explicitly stated he wishes the Glazers never got their hands on the club.

 

[GCHQ]

Whoa! While I agree that we're stable given the debt/condition we're in, you can never convince men or any fan that this situation isn't bad as compared to a non Glazer scenario.

I have defended the interpretation of accounts done by roodboy and you here. You can check that up, but are you seriously implying that we're not in a bad situation as compared to what it could've been minus us being a part of a leveraged takeover? If so, then you're wrong.

Yes, accepting the situation that we find ourselves in atm (ie, a part of a leveraged buyout), I agree that we're not financially precarious as some are suggesting. However, Glazer takeover hasn't been good for the club. If you don't agree with that then you need to rethink certain things.

Er, no. And I've never suggested that we wouldn't be in a better position without the leveraged takeover.

I said the results that have just been released aren't poor, in fact they're pretty good.

 

[Commadus]

Er, no. And I've never suggested that we wouldn't be in a better position without the leveraged takeover.

I said the results that have just been released aren't poor, in fact they're pretty good.

With respect to what?

In what context are they pretty good?

 

[Sir A1ex]

How many of your friends have taken out 6 figure mortgages on thier homes? Are they capable of paying off this in the space of 2 years? No?

Are they living a comfortable life while they continue to pay off this mortgage? They are?

Are you walking around moaning that they were so much better off before they took thier mortgage out because they weren't £200,000 in debt? Your not?... Why?.... Because it seems a bit silly doesn't it.

Again - core of the problem - we're not moaning because the Glazers are in debt. It's the football club we care about.

 

[Transfer United Till I Die]

It seems pretty simple to me. We've got a core of people who, for five years, have been arguing that the club is going bust, that the debt isn't sustainable, that ronaldo was sold to meet costs and that the £70m would be gone for the pics. None of it had happened and all they've got is those glazer bastards, we aren't as well of as we were. Fine, if that had been their point from the beginning but it wasn't and it's embarrassing. Instead of focusing on that and the financial effect on the fans they, and must, have lost all credibility shooting their load predicting the end if the world. Now, even when they highlight real issues, it doesn't ring true and looks like propaganda. Cringeworthy from s group of people who for the last few years have accused all those who didn't agree as burying their heads in the sand.

 

[GCHQ]

Contradiction where? Bit pompous arent you.

Well in one post you said the club is in a dangerous position and then in another you said that you've never felt that the club is threatened.

That struck me as a contradiction.

 

[Pexbo]

Are his friends now, instead of him just bringing some beer, charging him to come to their bbqs and if he misses 3 in a season he's not allowed back? That seems a bit silly doesn't it.

Haha well played, sir.

But again you are actually backing up the arguement's I have been making. Look at what I said above, I didn't claim they were good for the fans (friends) at any time.

Quite the opposite.

I just think it's important that people should be focusing on what the actual issue is here, not the mythical "shite financial state" the Glazer's have put United in, but the poor treatment of the fans.

They are not going to budge. Which is why in my opinion, the Green and Gold campaign should be replaced with a campaign to make the club more family oriented once again.

Over the last 132 years the supporters have played a huge role in building this club to what it is and the Glazers are ignoring this now.

The campaign should be about showing the supporters the resepect they deserve and making prices more reasonable once again. How many here got bought a season ticket by thier dad 15, 20, 30 or 40 years ago so they could go to the game and watch it together every other week. It just isn't financially viable any more and that rite of passage is being lost.

 

[GCHQ]

Is he defending the Glazers or is he dispassionately analysing the available information so we can try and see what will happen from here?

Everyone agrees that the Glazers have been bad for us, that goes without saying, what this thread should be about is understanding the exact situation we find ourselves in.

Precisely.

 

[Transfer United Till I Die]

No apology for making stuff up about me earlier in the thread fred?

 

[fredthered]

Well if you actually read what has been said you would understand.

You're pissed off they took over, yes, we understand that and so are we.

We're simply trying to explain that the financial side of things is well and truely under control.

How many of your friends have taken out 6 figure mortgages on thier homes? Are they capable of paying off this in the space of 2 years? No?

Are they living a comfortable life while they continue to pay off this mortgage? They are?

Are you walking around moaning that they were so much better off before they took thier mortgage out because they weren't £200,000 in debt? Your not?... Why?.... Because it seems a bit silly doesn't it.

Five years ago when they took over there were about 5 of us on here who were arguing back then that the club would get deeper and deeper in debt.

"OH NO" they cried "David Gill has promised us its managable.. they know what they are doing.. they are succesful businessmen.. They will clear off the debt in 10 years"

We took all the shit under the sun, being called traitors, anti United.. you name it...

Well as times gone by the things we said would happen have happened

Ticket prices rocketed
Debts going up.. not down
Interest payments getting higher and higher
Money being siphoned off into the Glazers own pockets
The team becoming reliant on youth because we cant afford to compete with Chelsea/City/ Spurs/Villa/Hull/Accrington Stanley

We said in 2005 that what they had proposed back then in the share offer would result in disaster. Guess what.. If they'd stuck to that plan it would have been disaster..

But no, they re-financed.. We said "It still aint good enough.. "

"you are wrong they cried"

Well what happened. Oh feck.. that plan wasnt working either so they went for another re-finance

"still too risky" we told them

"no its not.. look at all the money we're making.. we can easily cover it"

Three years later, oh feck me sideways, those plans didnt work either, and yet again, another re-finance, another increase in debts, more interest payments... AND THEY'RE STILL feckING AT IT..

"they can cope, we know.. you dont understand business, they know what they are doing... look at how they've helped raise the revenue streams"

How many times are we going to see the debts re-financed, the debts increased, the interest payments going up, before those people get their heads from up their assholes and understand that those feckers are a liability, and they are putting the club in real danger.

These are no ordinary businessmen we are talking about.

These are people who have been investigated time and time again by the SEC in the US for their business practises.
Have been labelled wolves in sheeps clothing by a senior US judge.
They tried to buy Harley Davidson with money they didnt have
They tried to instigate a takeover of a company that was worth more than their entire business empire
They sued their own fecking relatives for their mothers will FFS...
They got sued by their own fans at Tampa
They got sued by their own fans at United
They got sued by the people renting their caravans.
They've blown the shit out of a 100,000 waiting list at Tampa
They've blown the shit out of the waiting list at Old Trafford
The ground in Tampa in half empty now
They are the lowest spending owners in the entire NFL spending $34 million below the wage cap..

and the list goes on and on..

So forgive me for being just slightly sceptical when people tell me I should be objective and look at the facts..

I've looked at the facts, and the way I see it, he should be out on his ear and the sooner the better.

you lot can sit and wait to see if he has got his sums right if you want.. But me personally, i know enough about him and what hes done in hte past to form the opinion that whatever he does its going to end up in a mess.

 

[Transfer United Till I Die]

Haha well played, sir.

But again you are actually backing up the arguement's I have been making. Look at what I said above, I didn't claim they were good for the fans (friends) at any time.

Quite the opposite.

I just think it's important that people should be focusing on what the actual issue is here, not the mythical "shite financial state" the Glazer's have put United in, but the poor treatment of the fans.

They are not going to budge. Which is why in my opinion, the Green and Gold campaign should be replaced with a campaign to make the club more family oriented once again.

Over the last 132 years the supporters have played a huge role in building this club to what it is and the Glazers are ignoring this now.

The campaign should be about showing the supporters the resepect they deserve and making prices more reasonable once again. How many here got bought a season ticket by thier dad 15, 20, 30 or 40 years ago so they could go to the game and watch it together every other week. It just isn't financially viable any more and that rite of passage is being lost.

Amen brother.

 

[fredthered]

No apology for making stuff up about me earlier in the thread fred?

No because you are the biggest culprit for sucking up to the Glazers and screaming how its all gonna be OK.

You've defended them the whole way along.

 

[GCHQ]

As far as what I can make out, noone in this thread has the level of experience in Business Analysis to answer whether the club can bear shocks to the revenue streams. I suggest you get an independent opinion on that. On the other hand, you have less experience than others posting here and yet doesn't stop you from believing what you're saying is spot on and supporting it by definitions off the web.

Also, how did you get to Hitler from where you started? Perspective, fred.

I posted that JP Morgan research note yesterday which showed how much of an effect dropping out of the top 4 for two years over a five year period would have on the club's finances.

 

[Pexbo]

Can I just point out that the club is nothing without the fans..

See this:

Exactly my point.

I have been anti Glazer for a long time and I believed they were ruining the club so I took some time out to do my own research and form my own opinion and I was actually very surprised at what I found.

The fact is they are good for the club and bad for the fans.

Sadly thats how it is these days, the club and it's fans are seperate entities with different agenda's.

For me personally, money is not an issue yet and while the Cup Scheme might hit some where it hurts, the Season Tickets are in my opinion still value for money (that may change). So they are not bad for me but I am a supporter and I want to see my fellow supporters happy.

I do however think it's in both parties interest to see the Team do well which is why I think the Glazer's do have the money readily availible for Ferguson to spend.

I think the real issue for Ferguson is that he want's to get someone in that is worth the big bucks he's willing to spend on them.

Imagine if we signed another player for £30m that didn't fit the team a la Berbatov? I think spending nothing is better than spending too much on the wrong player in his eyes. We have a team that can hold it's own right now, it's about identfying the players who bring us back to the top level we should be at.

 

[peterstorey]

I posted that JP Morgan research note yesterday which showed how much of an effect dropping out of the top 4 for two years over a five year period would have on the club's finances.

Oh yeah, I still think that was out by about 100%.

 

[fredthered]

Are you walking around moaning that they were so much better off before they took thier mortgage out because they weren't £200,000 in debt? Your not?... Why?.... Because it seems a bit silly doesn't it.

Not silly at all. If they are paying the debt themselves and it goes badly wrong, the only people who suffer is themselves.

If however Glazer doesnt pay his mortgage then who suffers ?

Or correction, if Glazer doesnt use the clubs money to pay his mortgage then who suffers..

 

[fredthered]

oh yeah, i still think that was out by about 100%.

:d:d

 

[Transfer United Till I Die]

No because you are the biggest culprit for sucking up to the Glazers and screaming how its all gonna be OK.

You've defended them the whole way along.

No I haven't. I said let's wait and see and for that I was called an ostrich and accused of not being a proper fan. And your only response to that is to make up lies about me. You are full of fecking shit. Lies and shit. The same lies you have peddled for five years to turn people to your bitter vendetta. I don't want the glazers at united and we are worse off with them but I won't agree to spout your bile because you tell me to.

 

[fredthered]

I posted that JP Morgan research note yesterday which showed how much of an effect dropping out of the top 4 for two years over a five year period would have on the club's finances.

Is that the same JP Morgan who have acted as guarantor and who were paid copious amounts of money to organise the loans and the bond issues ??

 

[GCHQ]

Oh yeah, I still think that was out by about 100%.

What? The £15m reduction in EBITDA?

I know you hate me ''appealing to authority'' Peter but the report was written by professionals who were able to talk to the club and indeed they presented their own independent figures anyway.

 

[GCHQ]

Is that the same JP Morgan who have acted as guarantor and who were paid copious amounts of money to organise the loans and the bond issues ??

There's always some conspiracy involved with you Fred isn't there?

 

[fredthered]

No I haven't. I said let's wait and see and for that I was called an ostrich and accused of not being a proper fan. And your only response to that is to make up lies about me. You are full of fecking shit. Lies and shit. The same lies you have peddled for five years to turn people to your bitter vendetta. I don't want the glazers at united and we are worse off with them but I won't agree to spout your bile because you tell me to.

Yes you said wait and see.

Five years later we've found out what a fecking mess they would have been in if they didnt re-finance.. The plans they set out were fecked up, and if they had stuck to the original plans, we'd be doing a Portsmouth right now...

Now what are you saying ?

Well lets wait and see again...

Yes, lets just keep waiting and seeing...

when the debt hits £1.5 billion and theres no money to buy players, we're out the CL and finishing mid table.. Then what ?

Oh I know..

LETS WAIT AND SEE.

 

[Transfer United Till I Die]

Yes you said wait and see.

Five years later we've found out what a fecking mess they would have been in if they didnt re-finance.. The plans they set out were fecked up, and if they had stuck to the original plans, we'd be doing a Portsmouth right now...

Now what are you saying ?

Well lets wait and see again...

Yes, lets just keep waiting and seeing...

when the debt hits £1.5 billion and theres no money to buy players, we're out the CL and finishing mid table.. Then what ?

Oh I know..

LETS WAIT AND SEE.

they were always going to refinance you pillock. That's the point.

 

[fredthered]

There's always some conspiracy involved with you Fred isn't there?

Who said anything about a conspiracy...

I asked a question. Now would you mind answering it.

Is the report you cling to with dear life, prepared by the same company that got paid shit loads of money to help get Glazer a loan to buy the club with, and has since acted as guarantor against the rolling credit agreement and also been involved in selling the bonds..

Thats not a difficult question to answer.

 

[Garethw]

Worrying times.

 

[fredthered]

they were always going to refinance you pillock. That's the point.

Yes, and that went tits up,

So they re-financed AGAIN

And guess what..

They refinanced AGAIN

Guess whats coming in 2017......

Oh I suppose you knew that anyway...

 

[Transfer United Till I Die]

Oh, and given that you accept I in fact just said wait and see I expect an apology for the lies. Thank you.

 

[Kelvin]

EXCLUSIVE: Manchester United Spent £40m Refinancing Debt Following £80m Cristiano Ronaldo Sale
* Old Trafford club have £95m cash reserves and turnover has increased by £26m year-on-year * But club debt has grown by £12m from January to £520m * Overall debt set to exceed £750m for current financial year
By Wayne Veysey | Chief Correspondent

Manchester United spent the equivalent of half the proceeds from the £80 million Cristiano Ronaldo sale on refinancing their debt earlier this year, the club’s latest set of financial figures reveal today.

The quarterly results for the period January to end of March 2010 show an apparently buoyant economic picture, with cash reserves of £95.9m and a turnover that has increased £26m to £219m from the corresponding nine-month period last year.

But the Glazer family are continuing to increase the debt burden on the club.

Analysis of United’s accounts shows that the club made a one-off loss of £40.7m on interest rate swaps in the first quarter of the year, in order to change to a more favourable fixed deal after the club lost out to the sharp fall in interest rates.

This club have already paid off £12.7m of this – the equivalent of revenue from this season’s Champions League home games – and the remaining £28m will be absorbed by United over the next five years.

Despite the vast cash reserves, it is unlikely manager Sir Alex Ferguson will see too much of the money in the way of a summer transfer kitty. The £45m annual interest bill already soaks up half of the cash reserves.

Furthermore, although the overall debt in the club has decreased from £543.3m in March 30 2009 to £520m, it has increased by £12m since the Glazers took out a £500m bond in January to refinance what the club calls their “senior debt”.

The big mystery surrounds the notorious payment in kind (PIK) loans, which, although not revealed in the results posted by the football club, are estimated to have grown to £225m. They are set to rise even further with the interest rate due to jump to 16.25 per cent in August.

In the latest annual accounts, to July 2009, debts at the parent company Red Football Joint Venture increased to £716.5m. Based on today’s figures, that could comfortably exceed £750m by the end of the current financial year.

One City source told Goal.com UK: “This is a very well run football club with a scary bank sheet attached to it. If you take away the debt and look at the football club it is a resounding success story making huge amounts of money. Below the club sit some very nasty financial details.”

The last few months has witnessed a public battle between the club and the Red Knights, a group of wealthy individual supporters, with the two parties offering hugely differing estimates of United’s value.

The Glazers made a clear statement in the accounts today that the club is “not for sale and the owners will not entertain any offers”.

Earlier today, chief executive David Gill said that with the financing in place at the club and the growth in its commercial operations, United could “still be a top, top club”.

He told the Independent: “We can invest in players, invest in the training ground – we have plans for that – invest in the stadium and do those things. The money is definitely there. We are not in a situation where Alex is restricted in what he wants to do with the club.”

However, this is unlikely to placate the critics. Duncan Drasdo, chief executive of the Manchester United Supporters Trust (MUST), said: “The Glazers have said almost nothing for the last five years but all of a sudden with a supporter friendly takeover bid being assembled and supporters threatening not to renew season tickets they are in a real panic.

“Of course they won't say anything in person - they hide behind their Page Ranking people and club employees. David Gill wouldn't be defending them if he wasn't an employee. When the Glazers go perhaps we'll hear his true feelings.

“The fact is they've put no money in - not a single penny. The money used to purchase the club went to the shareholders, not the club and of course they borrowed the vast majority of that money and then transferred the debt to the club.”

 

[GCHQ]

In the absence of the Glazers and if we remained under the ownership structure prior to when the Glazers took over would we be a in a better position than we are now in?

I believe so, yes. Not massively better by any means, but yes, better shape nevertheless.

 

[fredthered]

they were always going to refinance you pillock. That's the point.

and your evidence for this is ?

When they took over, they promised us that the debts they had incurred was perfectly managable..

Now you are saying "they knew when they took over the debts couldnt be managed, so they had prior plans to re-finance"

So you openly admit they bought United using loans they couldnt cope with and you are happy with that...

And you wonder why I think you're a fecking dildo....

 

[fredthered]

I believe so, yes. Not massively better by any means, but yes, better shape nevertheless.

Be fecking serious..

almost £800 million in debt and you think thats "not massively" worse off than not owing a penny.. and we've paid out over £400 million for the privilige of running up that debt

You've just blown any chance you ever had of anyone taking you seriously with that comment.

 

[Sir A1ex]

The campaign should be about showing the supporters the resepect they deserve and making prices more reasonable once again. How many here got bought a season ticket by thier dad 15, 20, 30 or 40 years ago so they could go to the game and watch it together every other week. It just isn't financially viable any more and that rite of passage is being lost.

Yep, and there's only one way things will improve in that dept, and that is with the exit of the Glazers.

If you honestly believe they are just suddenly going to have a change of heart and start treating the supporters well, then sorry but you're living in a dream world.

They have more than adequately proved that they don't give a shit about the fans, or the negative P.R. generated by treating them like shit. That ain't going to change.

 

[Commadus]

I posted that JP Morgan research note yesterday which showed how much of an effect dropping out of the top 4 for two years over a five year period would have on the club's finances.

Was JP Morgan involved in the bond syndication or sale?

 

[fredthered]

Yep, and there's only one way things will improve in that dept, and that is with the exit of the Glazers.

If you honestly believe they are just suddenly going to have a change of heart and start treating the supporters well, then sorry but you're living in a dream world.

They have more than adequately proved that they don't give a shit about the fans, or the negative P.R. generated by treating them like shit. That ain't going to change.

But... but.. but.. but.. They increased EBITDA........

You hear what I said...

THEY INCREASED EBITDA

as far as I am concerned anyone who can increase EBITDA can stay as long as they like....