ALL issues relating to the bond issue and club finances

[Julian Denny]

It seems to me that the overall PR from the Glazers has been pitiful from the start. Ok they were given a hostile reception from certain fans from the start which was understandable given the aggressive nature of their bid and the fact that it was over leveraged - at least it was to many observers, including David Gill.

However, a majority of fans were prepared to give them a chance on a sort of wait and see basis. However, as far as I know, little or no attempt was made by the Glazers themselves or the club to engage with the mainstream. Even now with the possibility that the Glazers have substantially reduced the associated debt by possibly using their own funds, there has been no attampt to explain what has happened. This is an opportunity to build a bridge with the mainstream and perhaps get some of the more voiciferous antis on their side and yet we have complete silence. Maybe after today some attempt will be made.

 

[DanH]

You say that must's influence needs to die off before the Glazers could talk to the fans. I'm of the opinion that until te Glazers engage with the fans then Must's voice is the only one that will be heard in the media and by extension the wider fan base. I think it would only serve to lessen their influence to have an alternative more reasoned viewpoint which still focuses on fan issues.

 

[Sir A1ex]

I estimate it'll be a couple of seasons or so before MUST's influence drops to nil; we on here know that they're a joke, but the press are yet to fully acknowledge the reality of the situation and so for the wider fanbase it will likely take a lot longer to cast off those outdated prejudices and preconceptions.

Lucky we get to be members of the exclusive club of in-the-know fans with access to your wisdom, eh Cider?

If you have not done so already, cancel your MUST membership.

Nothing beats telling other fans how to behave, eh Cider?

 

[golden_blunder]

Personally I don't think it yet the right time to be setting up any new supporters groups. I estimate it'll be a couple of seasons or so before MUST's influence drops to nil; we on here know that they're a joke, but the press are yet to fully acknowledge the reality of the situation and so for the wider fanbase it will likely take a lot longer to cast off those outdated prejudices and preconceptions. It'll come though, and in a few seasons time MUST will be little more than a somewhat embarrassing memory; I think only then will it be fruitful to try and engage the owners in a civilised manner, because until then anyone attempting such will likely only be met with suspicion and a continuation of the seige mentality taken up by the Glazers to combat their over-zealous aggressors. In the meantime we should simply carry on what we've been doing and let the caf be our outlet; it seems to have worked thus far; the poisonous, blinding hatred has been isolated to a crackpot minority and, on the whole, people here seem much more open to reasoned discussion, understanding and analysis than has ever been the case in the past. This is a healthy, progressive midset that will need to be encouraged further if we hope to ever reach a point at which the fans and the owners can work together to ensure the club's future is a bright and successful one for all parties: fans, players, managerial staff and owners. The hate-campaign must come to an end, only then can we begin to repair the damage its caused. If you have not done so already, cancel your MUST membership.

Cider, please don't assume that you are speaking on behalf of our boards. We entertain the right for both sides to have their opinions but please don't mistake that for the forum having an official stance either way. All the admins and mods have seperate opinions

 

[Redlambs]

You say that must's influence needs to die off before the Glazers could talk to the fans. I'm of the opinion that until te Glazers engage with the fans then Must's voice is the only one that will be heard in the media and by extension the wider fan base.

Yes, but they make us all look like idiots on a regular basis. It's a big shame

 

[Redlambs]

:
Nothing beats telling other fans how to behave, eh Cider?

Indeed, that's a bit too close to Anders calling for boycotts for my liking.


I firmly believe that people really need to make their own choice, which is why I hate all this propaganda.

 

[anver]

Nobody expects MUST to sit around a table and talk with the Glazers. Nor can MUST ever expect the Glazers to sit around a table and talk with them. I expect MUST to go be quiet over in a corner somewhere whilst others do the talking. MUST played the game and lost; they can do the honourable thing now and back-down, or they can become increasingly ridiculous and desperate and fade out that way; which option they choose is up to them (my guess would be they'll go for option B). Either way though, their time has most certainly passed.

Wishful thinking of the Glazer Hurrah Boys.

 

[Sir A1ex]

Yes, but they make us all look like idiots on a regular basis.

I'd say this very forum does a better job of that than MUST ever could...

 

[Escobar]

Wishful thinking of the Glazer Hurrah Boys.

MUST certainly did a lot of things wrong, and the way the operated was not clever either. But they have a place and are important for the fans.

 

[ciderman9000000]

You say that must's influence needs to die off before the Glazers could talk to the fans. I'm of the opinion that until te Glazers engage with the fans then Must's voice is the only one that will be heard in the media and by extension the wider fan base. I think it would only serve to lessen their influence to have an alternative more reasoned viewpoint which still focuses on fan issues.

The press have no use for MUST anymore. Reports on the ACS aren't going to sell papers; the press wanted hardcore doom and gloom and from MUST they got that in abundance; scaremongering sells papers. It's by definition a very short-lived relationship though; scaremongering only sells for a relatively short period of time; once people begin to realise that all the fuss was about nothing they quickly tire of reading about it. The press doesn't give a feck about MUST, they'll stop printing their crap just as soon as they started. MUST rely on the press though. Tough luck. Bad tactics. I agree that the fans should have a voice (in MUST they've only ever had a big megaphone directed back on themselves with some dick behind it telling them all what to think), but that voice - a voice with which to reason rather than attack - can only come naturally through the general easing of attitude towards the owners as everyone begins to see for themselves that what they've been led to believe over the last five years has been largely a load of pessimistic bollocks. The process has begun, it's happening right now; do we really need another supporters group to officiate it? The problem with a group, as we've seen with MUST, is that they don't speak for the fans as a whole, rather, they speak only for the few fans in charge of the group and simply expect the rest to think like they do.

 

[Redlambs]

I'd say this very forum does a better job of that than MUST ever could...

I don't know about that, there are worse

 

[Sir A1ex]

in MUST they've only ever had a big megaphone directed back on themselves with some dick behind it telling them all what to think

MUST... simply expect the rest to think like they do.

If you have not done so already, cancel your MUST membership.

Carfeul not to turn into an irrelevant joke, there Ciderman...

 

[Rood]

They will never engage in conversations with MUST. How many of us can float an idea to form a group and try to engage in conversation with Glazers?

Firstly, I agree that the club will never engage with MUST because they have always been strongly against the owners so it is obvious that they wont want to have anything to do with them. I have said all along that I believe this is/was a mistake.

Secondly, there is already a Fans Forum (made up for ST holders, OU members etc) who the club do talk to - however I dont know too much about it all to be honest. I did see some minutes from one of their meetings at some point but I cant remember where now.

Lastly, we did have a half joking, half serious discussion about the need for a new fans group a couple of months ago - I think the name Manchester United Fans' Foundation (MUFF for short) was suggested

 

[ciderman9000000]

Cider, please don't assume that you are speaking on behalf of our boards. We entertain the right for both sides to have their opinions but please don't mistake that for the forum having an official stance either way. All the admins and mods have seperate opinions

Of course I wasn't speaking on behalf of the site.

 

[ciderman9000000]

Carfeul not to turn into an irrelevant joke, there Ciderman...

I believe that as individuals we are entitled to give our opinions whatever they may be; it's only when it becomes 'groups' attempting to give opinions in some semblance of official collective thinking that the problems arise. In my above post, which you've conveniently quoted sporadically from thus removing all context, I was advocating individual decision making and gradual change through open discussion and easing of extremism as opposed to MUST's propagandist hate-campaign of dubious soundbites and 'official' statements made with the pretence of collective opinion but which are more and more frequently encroaching on the downright absurd. If you cannot see the difference then more fool you.

 

[anver]

Firstly, I agree that the club will never engage with MUST because they have always been strongly against the owners so it is obvious that they wont want to have anything to do with them. I have said all along that I believe this is/was a mistake.

Secondly, there is already a Fans Forum (made up for ST holders, OU members etc) who the club do talk to - however I dont know too much about it all to be honest. I did see some minutes from one of their meetings at some point but I cant remember where now.

Lastly, we did have a half joking, half serious discussion about the need for a new fans group a couple of months ago - I think the name Manchester United Fans' Foundation (MUFF for short) was suggested

Get ready for some MUFF diving, mates.

 

[Pexbo]

Get ready for some MUFF diving, mates.

They were all done in that thread

 

[Sir A1ex]

I was advocating individual decision making

If you have not done so already, cancel your MUST membership.

I'm going to be quoting this one all day, aren't I?

 

[Sir A1ex]

They were all done in that thread

Much better too... there's not even a double entendre in "Get ready for some MUFF diving"

 

[Escobar]

So, all this banter aside, do we know now where the money is coming from?

 

[GCHQ]

I'm going to be quoting this one all day, aren't I?

Alternatively we could start quoting numerous posts in this thread from yourself. Now that really would be funny.

 

[Sir A1ex]

Alternatively we could start quoting numerous posts in this thread from yourself. Now that really would be funny.

Yeah go on then, I always like a laugh.

 

[ciderman9000000]

I'm going to be quoting this one all day, aren't I?

I wouldn't put it past you.

Perhaps though you'd be of more interest if you were to quote my posts in their entirety, context intact, and adress the points made within in a less childish manner?

 

[Sir A1ex]

I wouldn't put it past you.

Perhaps though you'd be of more interest if you were to quote my posts in their entirety, context intact, and adress the points made within in a less childish manner?

It's a nice idea, but we've been round those arguments a thousand times, and I'm pretty busy at work so I'll stick to laughing at individual instances of your hypocrisy for now.

Sorry.

 

[GCHQ]

Yeah go on then, I always like a laugh.

I will at some point. At least you had the decency to show your face this time when the MUST/anti-Glazer propaganda yet again proved to be utter bollocks. The same can't be said for one or two of your mates.

 

[Rood]

Yes - not seen Fred for a while, wonder why?

 

[Sir A1ex]

I will at some point.

I look forward to it - I really can't imagine what I've said that will be so funny, I'm not normally a very funny kind of guy.

At least you had the decency to show your face this time when the MUST/anti-Glazer propaganda yet again proved to be utter bollocks.

Has it? I hadn't noticed... some of us don't plan their time on internet forums according to percieved victories and defeats in these threads.

The same can't be said for one or two of your mates.

Mates? Didn't know I was so popular! You may count random strangers on forums that happen to agree with you on an issue as mates, but I've never thought of it that way, I'm afraid...

 

[ciderman9000000]

Firstly, I agree that the club will never engage with MUST because they have always been strongly against the owners so it is obvious that they wont want to have anything to do with them. I have said all along that I believe this is/was a mistake.

Secondly, there is already a Fans Forum (made up for ST holders, OU members etc) who the club do talk to - however I dont know too much about it all to be honest. I did see some minutes from one of their meetings at some point but I cant remember where now.

Does anyone know anything about this? I thought the club had no communication with the fans, at least, that's what we're always told. It'd be pretty fundamental to the discussion if it turns out that there is in fact a channel of communication already in place.

 

[GCHQ]

Does anyone know anything about this? I thought the club had no communication with the fans, at least, that's what we're always told. It'd be pretty fundamental to the discussion if it turns out that there is in fact a channel of communications already in place.

More info here: http://www.manutd.com/default.sps?pagegid={BB85B17F-A33F-4C18-8D6A-88B357BC1CEE}

 

[Rood]

"The Fans' Forum meets three times a year and consists of 15 members representing different sections of United's matchgoing support. To try and improve communication between fans and Forum members, the Club has set up some email addresses which will allow you to contact the relevant members directly."

The minutes from the meetings are on the official site

 

[Sir A1ex]

There is a fan's forum - minutes of its meeting have been posted on here before (in this very thread).

What nobody has been able to do, though, is figure out how the members of the fan's forum get to be on it.

 

[Sir A1ex]

"To try and improve communication between fans and Forum members..."

I lvoe the implication that the forum members aren't actually fans.

 

[Rood]

It quite obviously means fans who arent Forum members - trust you to see it another way !

 

[ciderman9000000]

More info here: http://www.manutd.com/default.sps?pagegid={BB85B17F-A33F-4C18-8D6A-88B357BC1CEE}

I can't get that link to work, GC, it just takes me to the club's title page. Can you post the content?

 

[GCHQ]

Has it?

Err, yes it has. You must have been too busy trying to score points against me to notice.

I can't say it any better than the Daily Mail's Martin Samuel. Here he is again:

Questions were asked this week after the Glazers repaid their controversial PIK loans (without using club money, the gloomy forecast of various experts and opportunists).

Some people are never satisfied, though. 'Where did they find £220million? At what interest rate did they borrow it? When does it need to be paid back?' asked a newspaper that was losing £100,000 a day last year, but somehow kept publishing.

The answer is simple: mind your own business. Since when was a say in the interest arrangements of a private company included in the price of a season ticket?

Turn up, don't turn up. Cheer the team, boo the team. But this level of interference was never part of the bargain, no more than the Glazers would have the right to ask any Manchester United supporter how he afforded the price of admission.

 

[GCHQ]

I can't get that link to work, GC, it just takes me to the club's title page. Can you post the content?

Rood posted part of the content.

Here's what you have to do to join the Fans' Forum:

Join the Fans' Forum

Got something you've been dying to say about United? Then why not apply for a place on the Fans' Forum for 2010/11.

The Fans’ Forum allows representatives of match-going supporters to debate club policies and suggest how to improve them. A total of 15 fans form the group, with one seat reserved for a member of the Manchester United Disabled Supporters’ Association. The other 14 people who are chosen to serve on the panel do so for two years.

Candidates are selected at random from fans’ applications. To reflect the varied sections of the Club’s fanbase, representatives are drawn from Season Ticket holders (3 places), Members (3), supporters club branches (3), box / executive members (1), 16-21 year olds (1), over 65s (1), adult Family Stand Season Ticket holders (1) and a resident of Manchester, Salford or Trafford (1).

The rules of the Forum dictate that seven seats are up for selection each year, and fans in the categories below are encouraged to send their details to the Manchester United Foundation at the address indicated. Following the success of last year’s pilot, we will also be accepting applications by email.

Forum meetings are held in the afternoons of non matchdays to give adequate time for discussions. The sessions are usually held the Friday before a weekend home fixture. Reasonable travelling expenses will be paid by the Club to allow members to attend meetings.

David Gill, chief executive of Manchester United, chairs the Forum. His involvement underlines the importance the Club attaches to these talks. All members are encouraged to speak on each issue.

If you want to be part of a body that has helped shape Club policy on matters such as away ticket allocations and discounted season tickets for the over 65s, please print and fill in the application form and post it to the Manchester United Foundation.

Alternatively, email the same details to muforum@mufoundation.org.

Applications must be in by 12pm (noon) on Friday 1 October 2010.

Join the Fans' Forum - Manchester United Official Web Site

 

[ciderman9000000]

That sounds reasonable enough. Why is the impression so often given then that there's no communication between the club and the fans?

 

[Pexbo]

That sounds reasonable enough. Why are we all under the impression then that there's no communication between the club and the fans?

I think we know why that is.

 

[ciderman9000000]

I think we know why that is.

Is this a new initiative though? Surely we've not been lied to about this too?!

 

[ciderman9000000]

There is a fan's forum - minutes of its meeting have been posted on here before (in this very thread).

What nobody has been able to do, though, is figure out how the members of the fan's forum get to be on it.

It seems to be simply a case of having to apply to be on it. Where's the confusion coming from?