So you want a stat that shows not only the amount of shots but also their difficulty. If only we’ve had one!
Which context aren’t they taking in account exactly?
Alisson Becker | Budding Target Man
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Which context aren’t they taking in account exactly?
I want people to stop relying on stats for comparison when they're affected by a load of other aspects that aren't considered. The wider context being what actually happens during singular additions to said stat and what happens during entire games. You're clearly a big fan of stats though, so I'll just leave it.
I don't want a stat!
Stats don't give you the full picture. That's what I'm saying. How hard is this?I mean if I'm arguing with people who think stats do give the full picture, there's no point is there? I shouldn't need to explain that they don't.
Actually there is a stat for that - PSxG (post shot expected goal), it puts a value on the quality of the shot and how likely its to result in a goal so it's an excellent tool to measure how good goalkeepers are at shot stopping.
https://thesporting.blog/blog/post-shot-expected-goals-what-is-it-and-why-does-it-matter
fbref use it in their shot stopping stats in the link below.
https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/keepersadv/Premier-League-Stats
Jesus Christ
Please read previous posts before jumping into a discussion. Also just use your bloody eyes for once. No one can point me to these amazing saves this stat alludes to. They’re all distinctly average. And before anyone else chimes in without reading, I’m aware great saves aren’t the be all and end all.
Please read previous posts before jumping into a discussion. Also just use your bloody eyes for once. No one can point me to these amazing saves this stat alludes to. They’re all distinctly average. And before anyone else chimes in without reading, I’m aware great saves aren’t the be all and end all.
So basically you want to make unjustified claims and then complain when the data show otherwise?
Unjustified, apart from actually watching the games, yes. Crazy that I’d point to watching football rather than just looking at stats.
IF you watched games you’d see stats point to big standard saves for the most part.
Jesus Christ
Please read previous posts before jumping into a discussion
I did read the previous page. What wider context on shot quality do you want?
I mean it’s obviously meaningless if you watched all Liverpool games. Especially during their heights. He rarely had to make a decent save. Yet his stats tell you he had to make brilliant ones?
His highlights posted just a bit back are full of bang average saves. That’s his highlight reel. So what exactly is this stat proving? If it’s positioning then that just proves the shots weren’t that great, because no positioning can continuously put you in a spot to not have to make a great save if the shot is good enough.
I don't want a stat!
It's not that hard. The issue is when we give you our own opinion that does include the full picture (at least going by your logic I would assume that watching football with your eyes gives you the full picture), you write it off because it's baseless. When we give you the facts that support our opinion (and, an important detail — our opinion isn't based on the stats, they support our opinion that was formed by watching him play), you say that they ignore a lot of details.
So if others disagree with you they simply haven't watched him play?
I wasn't talking about Alisson specifically but I do think he's the best keeper in the league and probably the best in the world currently. The PSxG SOT stat actually grades how hard the shots are on average for each keeper in the league. In this case the stats agree with you and Alisson faces less hard shot than DDG on average. In the league this season DDG has faced the hardest shots on average in the league whilst Alisson is in the average range. Of course you can argue that this is a symptom of DGG being planted on his line most of the time which gives players a lot of the goal to aim at so that is an area with futher context to be considered.
I’d suggest people are more influenced by the media and stats than what they are watching though. We’ve seen that time and time again. Many people here had DDG written off in his early days because of the media. People here have used stats to suggest Lukaku doesn’t feck things up any more than other players. They were both wrong.
And you're the only one who isn't? Interesting. By the way, I've completely backed De Gea in his early days and never been a big fan of Lukaku (even though he had certainly improved during his time in Italy) — yet I'm still surprised by the confidence with which you turn your personal opinion (that I agree on in those cases) into a non-debatable fact.
Because I pointed out people being wrong in the past using similar arguments, it means I think I'm the only one who isn't? Interesting.
And I haven't turned it in to a non-debateable fact. We've debated it here, but obviously I stand by what I've said. I gave reasons why the the argument against can be wrong despite them being given as conclusive. Bare in mind I came here to laugh at Alisson not being for the umpth time, and got called kneejerk by 5 different people, in true caf style. All I've done is defended my thought that Alisson is overrated, which is something I've always been open about here.
You can quantify the degree of difficulty in shots faced. That's reflected in post-shot xG as well.
I also always find it very funny when those who use stats are told to just "watch football" - you do realise that the people who develop these models are among the most passionate about football, right? No one has argued that stats are the be all end all, the whole point is to have objectivity collected over large samples that are obviously more meaningful than anyone's singular opinion.
But it doesn't correlate with what we see. Let's just agree to disagree. We'll go around in circles otherwise.
Mentioned it in the De Gea thread but a downside to being an aggressive sweeper (which is a net positive) is the increased risk of individual errors. It would be interesting to see how many of Alisson and Ederson's (who has also made quite a few) come from that or if they're error prone in terms of handling, etc.
Because in terms of the official "errors leading to chances/goals" stats, I remember being surprised at how relatively well DDG was faring compared to them over the last few years despite his poor form.
Because in terms of the official "errors leading to chances/goals" stats, I remember being surprised at how relatively well DDG was faring compared to them over the last few years despite his poor form.
Despite the error, he was outstanding today.
Yeah this is definitely true. I would guess that all of his errors have been due to his aggressive sweeper keeper approach.
I’ve always argued there is a benefit to a sweeper keeper but that it cancels itself out over time compared to a very solid goalkeeper who just stays on his line (like De Gea for example.)
But when you play such a high line the sweeper keeper arguably becomes a necessity regardless.
Depends how they define error. His performance against West Ham was wank. If they aren’t classed as errors then the stats aren’t worth considering.
That’s a good point, I hadn’t really made that link but it’s true. Even outside of statistical records, a mistake by an aggressive sweeper can look a lot more calamitous compared to a more conservative keeper, even if the end result is the same.
Is there a bit of subjectivity in what is counted as an error in the stats? A lot of De Gea's errors over the last 3 years have been conceding from shots he should be saving. City's 2nd goal this season for example, Atalanta opener right after that. I'm wondering if either of them are either counted as errors?
His form at the end of 18/19 was bordering on throwing the ball in his own net every time someone had a shot at him.
That theory doesn’t make sense when both keepers started so well as a sweeper. Even Ederson has calmed down a lot and he isn’t any less of a sweeper keeper.
It’s not only coming out of the box but he’s a liabailty on the line ad well
It’s not only coming out of the box but he’s a liabailty on the line ad well
There must be. I'm very sure De Gea had incidents which were generally considered errors on this forum which didn't register on the OPTA stats, for example. And I can't think of how you'd classify something as an error without some degree of subjectivity.
Another factor was that of their official errors that led to either a chance/goal, a greater proportion of De Gea's were resulting in goals, which by definition meant they were more impactful. Which might have been down to the type of errors they were making (i.e. a handling error might be more likely to results in a goal than a misplaced pass, for example) or simple bad luck, with De Gea being disproportionately punished for his mistakes compared to Alisson/Ederson.
Side note but as we're talking about goalkeepers being aggressive coming off their line, you can see an interesting difference in De Gea & Ederson in this regard when it comes to 1v1s as well as they often have the exact opposite approach:
De Gea's reluctance to leave his line hurts him when the 1v1 is too close for relying on reflex saves to be viable and needs to be smothered aggressively instead. But it also helps him when the attacker is approaching from distance, as patiently holding back denies the attacker an easy finish and forces them to instead try to beat an excellent shot stopper from a distance in which he can actually make a save.
Whereas Ederson's aggression sees him more easily snuff out the sort of close range chances we've accused De gea of bottling out of it the past. But the flip side is that he too often runs out when the attacker is approaching from distance, giving them a much easier finish.
De Gea's reluctance to leave his line hurts him when the 1v1 is too close for relying on reflex saves to be viable and needs to be smothered aggressively instead. But it also helps him when the attacker is approaching from distance, as patiently holding back denies the attacker an easy finish and forces them to instead try to beat an excellent shot stopper from a distance in which he can actually make a save.
Whereas Ederson's aggression sees him more easily snuff out the sort of close range chances we've accused De gea of bottling out of it the past. But the flip side is that he too often runs out when the attacker is approaching from distance, giving them a much easier finish.
What? He was also extremely lucky that Kane got a weird touch sending the ball away from goal when Allisson and TAA miscommunicates
His save from Alli was outstanding and we’d have been a few goals down early on today.
It’s hard for keepers. They can be really good then in one moment make a mistake that costs the team. Strikers can miss sitters like Kane did today and no one cares.
And the punch out right after
Poor KepaSide note but as we're talking about goalkeepers being aggressive coming off their line, you can see an interesting difference in De Gea & Ederson in this regard when it comes to 1v1s as well as they often have the exact opposite approach:
De Gea's reluctance to leave his line hurts him when the 1v1 is too close for relying on reflex saves to be viable and needs to be smothered aggressively instead. But it also helps him when the attacker is approaching from distance, as patiently holding back denies the attacker an easy finish and forces them to instead try to beat an excellent shot stopper from a distance in which he can actually make a save.
Whereas Ederson's aggression sees him more easily snuff out the sort of close range chances we've accused De gea of bottling out of it the past. But the flip side is that he too often runs out when the attacker is approaching from distance, giving them a much easier finish.
That too was quite terrible. If that was a good game, then I am stunned. He's OK, but he's overrated.
I used to be a goalie, so I would know - and I was rubbish and had my stinkers. However, he regularly has these terrible decisions. Wasn't it only two matches ago against Villa where he was lucky as hell to escape two terrible mistakes. He is quite prone to mistakes, and sure he has some good saves, but he's not as good a shot stopper as DDG. He's no more than decent at commanding the box - especially obvious when VVD is not playing (he is world class btw), and he's only slightly above average with his feet.
But despite that, he's been crucial in getting Liverpool to a Champions League and Premier League title. It helps that he replaced a pair of lampposts but he's the best keeper we've had in ages. He does make saves on one on ones where you'd back the attacker to score.
De Gea is a better shot stopper though.
He’s been doing a lot of really stupid stuff recently. I’d love a keeper like him with his confidence off his line and on the ball, but his judgment has been pretty terrible on that front for a while now.
KepaSide note but as we're talking about goalkeepers being aggressive coming off their line, you can see an interesting difference in De Gea & Ederson in this regard when it comes to 1v1s as well as they often have the exact opposite approach:
De Gea's reluctance to leave his line hurts him when the 1v1 is too close for relying on reflex saves to be viable and needs to be smothered aggressively instead. But it also helps him when the attacker is approaching from distance, as patiently holding back denies the attacker an easy finish and forces them to instead try to beat an excellent shot stopper from a distance in which he can actually make a save.
Whereas Ederson's aggression sees him more easily snuff out the sort of close range chances we've accused De gea of bottling out of it the past. But the flip side is that he too often runs out when the attacker is approaching from distance, giving them a much easier finish.
He's definitely not a bad goalie, probably amongst the top ten in the world or thereabouts, but people rave about him being twice the goalie DDG is, or indisputably the best goalie in the world, and I feel a little sick in my mouth. He's got too many clangers in him to be the best in the game, and I don't see him having that one standout quality to elevate him - he is good one on one though, agree with that. I even think that for Kane's goal, he gets sucked far too much to the post - not saying he should have saved it, but his positioning was poor.
Your best goalie in forever though - agreed!
This is the part that I think a lot of people don't get. You have to have a keeper that suits the style of play, even when Barcelona were at their very best, Valdes was never really considered the best goalkeeper in the world, but he suited the team.
Alisson might not be the best of the lot out there, but he is the best there is for how Liverpool want to play. Now he may make a few mistakes, but his benefit to the team overall is largely positive, 9 times out of 10 he gets to that ball before Son.
If you put Alisson or Ederson into the Norwich team there's a fair chance they'd not do any better than Krul. But if you put Krul into either of those teams he wouldn't be as good for City and Liverpool as they are. It would be the same for De Gea, if you swap him into either Liverpool or City teams, he'd be a massive negative on the overall team. But either of them would be more of a positive for Utd than he is.
The man is a walking punchline.
Walking implies that he can move and there is ample evidence that this is not the case!