Alex Telles - SIGNED for United

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georgipep said:
And you think football clubs aren't businesses?
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There was a time when United were the gold standard of how clubs should be run. Juventus used Lippi's connections with Sir Alex to learn and pretty much copy our administration. That turned them into the Serie A financial juggernaut they are today. Inter used to hire our own people (Bolingbloke) and the term manager alla Ferguson (manager Ferguson's like) is still used to the very day. However it rested heavily on Sir Alex Ferguson to champion the football side of things. His influence and his record made him virtually untouchable, certainly from the bankers. He came from an era when the manager did everything himself (DOF, head of scouts, head of recruitment, Clough served as the club bus driver in some occasion etc). He also grew with the club so he knew it inside out. There isn't one square CM at OT or Carrington that Sir Alex didn't knew about.

No manager on earth will ever be able to do that simply because no manager on earth has SAF's influence + his exposure. Top managers are raised having DOFs, Football CEOs and data analysts helping them. They are totally unprepared to face a football environment without such people to rely on. It's like giving a navy seal a Sarissa and demand from him to fight in phalanx formation minutes before facing a charge. He'll die simply because he never fought in that way and there's little time for him to learn how to do it. Its time we learn from others JUST as others had previously learnt from us. There's no shame in that. Sacchi's system was heavily influenced by Cruyff, LVG' system was influenced by Sacchi, Guardiola's system was heavily influenced by LVG and so on. It's how football work. Actually its how the world works as a whole. We build upon the success of others.
 
devilish said:
There was a time when United were the gold standard of how clubs should be run. Juventus used Lippi's connections with Sir Alex to learn and pretty much copy our administration. That turned them into the Serie A financial juggernaut they are today. Inter used to hire our own people (Bolingbloke) and the term manager alla Ferguson (manager Ferguson's like) is still used to the very day. However it rested heavily on Sir Alex Ferguson to champion the football side of things. His influence and his record made him virtually untouchable, certainly from the bankers. He came from an era when the manager did everything himself (DOF, head of scouts, head of recruitment, Clough served as the club bus driver in some occasion etc). He also grew with the club so he knew it inside out. There isn't one square CM at OT or Carrington that Sir Alex didn't knew about.

No manager on earth will ever be able to do that simply because no manager on earth has SAF's influence + his exposure. Top managers are raised having DOFs, Football CEOs and data analysts helping them. They are totally unprepared to face a football environment without such people to rely on. It's like giving a navy seal a Sarissa and demand from him to fight in phalanx formation minutes before facing a charge. He'll die simply because he never fought in that way and there's little time for him to learn how to do it. Its time we learn from others JUST as others had previously learnt from us. There's no shame in that. Sacchi's system was heavily influenced by Cruyff, LVG' system was influenced by Sacchi, Guardiola's system was heavily influenced by LVG and so on. It's how football work. Actually its how the world works as a whole. We build upon the success of others.
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Totally agree. And football clubs are definitely businesses.

As for being successful and our model, it helps a lot if you have only one strong competitor in the league to deal with. Since Mourinho's arrival the number of title contenders increased to three, then the Abu Dhabi City takeover made it four and Klopp's progress at Liverpool now made it 5 (realistically four as Arsenal are no longer a contender).

It's a completely different story in Italy, Germany, Spain and France. The competition for the title year over year is just on a much lower level.
 
I hope the deal happens and Porto takes Rojo the other way.. would solve two problems in one go.
 
devilish said:
United's incompetence is quite predictable though.
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Possibly, there is a lot to point to that but the majority is exaggerated by the media for clicks and attention.

Maybe I'm in the minority here but iI do not see the problem with leaving transfers for the last possible moment and saving a few million pounds in the process.

People now push the narrative that we should've signed Cavani earlier if he was truly a target. Well, OK, but what if he was one of X number of targets and we were evaluating options? I think most people equate United's dealings with inadequacy because of their own limitations to see the wider context.
 
Slysi17 said:
Yes they are but Manchester City or Liverpool and a host of other clubs don't operate from primarily a business point of view. Manchester United are rather worried about saving a few quid than winning trophies. Don't you fecking get that or something
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City who refused to pay the price for Maguire even though their manager publicly stated he wanted him?

Or Liverpool who were accused of not investing in their title winning squad because they didn't buy a megastar? And who also are the envy of the whole league for their ability to sell their players for great prices?

Both clubs are ran like businesses. Every club in the world is a business.
 
georgipep said:
Totally agree. And football clubs are definitely businesses.

As for being successful and our model, it helps a lot if you have only one strong competitor in the league to deal with. Since Mourinho's arrival the number of title contenders increased to three, then the Abu Dhabi City takeover made it four and Klopp's progress at Liverpool now made it 5 (realistically four as Arsenal are no longer a contender).

It's a completely different story in Italy, Germany, Spain and France. The competition for the title year over year is just on a much lower level.
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United is like a race car racing with 2 busted tyres. We don't know its full potential and if it can or cannot compete unless we repair the damage and fine tune the darn thing first
 
georgipep said:
Possibly, there is a lot to point to that but the majority is exaggerated by the media for clicks and attention.

Maybe I'm in the minority here but iI do not see the problem with leaving transfers for the last possible moment and saving a few million pounds in the process.

People now push the narrative that we should've signed Cavani earlier if he was truly a target. Well, OK, but what if he was one of X number of targets and we were evaluating options? I think most people equate United's dealings with inadequacy because of their own limitations to see the wider context.
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I disagree. What we've seen in the past 7 years border to a parody. That's not how a club should be run
 
devilish said:
United is like a race car racing with 2 busted tyres. We don't know its full potential and if it can or cannot compete unless we repair the damage and fine tune the darn thing.
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No argument there. But the question is what do you think needs repairing and what is actually possible.

Statements like "get rid of Glazers/Woodward" are pointless. That's just not going to happen or if it does, it isn't going to be for the reasons people believe or under the circumstances they want.

For me, the best scenario is for a manager and his staff to take this transformation very personally and deal with it under the context of limited options and resources. I feel that Ole, Phelan, Butt are doing exactly that.
 
georgipep said:
No argument there. But the question is what do you think needs repairing and what is actually possible.

Statements like "get rid of Glazers/Woodward" are pointless. That's just not going to happen or if it does, it isn't going to be for the reasons people believe or under the circumstances they want.

For me, the best scenario is for a manager and his staff to take this transformation very personally and deal with it under the context of limited options and resources. I feel that Ole, Phelan, Butt are doing exactly that.
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I feel that this is one of the last few silver linings we have right now in terms of the football side of things.
 
georgipep said:
Why not? The point of a business is to make profits for its owners. United is very good at that.
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A business scope is to make as much money as possible. If it is able to make 60m in profit and it only makes 20m then that's not good enough. United have the second highest wage bill in the EPL with little to show off. It repeatedly squander huge fees for meah players and is constantly pissing off its own clients. That's not the result of an effective business
 
I think we need a few more out of the door before this guy comes in.
Time is ticking though.
 
Slysi17 said:
Yes they are but Manchester City or Liverpool and a host of other clubs don't operate from primarily a business point of view. Manchester United are rather worried about saving a few quid than winning trophies. Don't you fecking get that or something
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You couldn't get it more wrong. "Liverpool and a host of other clubs" operate just like we do. City is a bit different case since they are funded by a country. We back our managers more than pretty much any club in the world. Biggest issue is that since SAF we have to buy a world class XI to carry the manager while at some other clubs the manager carries the team.
 
Feed Me said:
Have you watched him a lot?
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yes mate i genuinely have because I thought he was coming to us, he’s a very good player, a lot more to his game than defending, he’d be a superb signing and I can’t believe United are squabbling over a few million euros when they could pay that and he’d be the difference in a couple of places, they’d make the extra fee back in prize money for 2/3 places in the league
 
devilish said:
A business scope is to make as much money as possible. If it is able to make 60m in profit and it only makes 20m then that's not good enough. United have the second highest wage bill in the EPL with little to show off. It repeatedly squander huge fees for meah players and is constantly pissing off its own clients. That's not the result of an effective business
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Absolutely, and you can't say that spending more on transfers would guarantee earning more, can you?

Like every big business, there is investment budget and there is a fine balance between ambition and profit certainty.
 
Higgy74 said:
yes mate i genuinely have because I thought he was coming to us, he’s a very good player, a lot more to his game than defending, he’d be a superb signing and I can’t believe United are squabbling over a few million euros when they could pay that and he’d be the difference in a couple of places, they’d make the extra fee back in prize money for 2/3 places in the league
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This is how we’re run which is why so many fans are tearing their hair out.
 
tombombadil said:
I feel that this is one of the last few silver linings we have right now in terms of the football side of things.
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For some reason people believe that a different manager would do that (and better) and not fcuk off at the first moment when they don't get the support from the club they think they deserve.

I can't find one legitimate reason to believe that.
 
pratyush_utd said:
Why? That is perfectly reasonable approach. He will be up for pre contract in 3 months and might even get him for less than 10m in January as Porto won't risk losing him for free. Thiago went for 25m for context.

We complain about overpaying. If we want to correct that, then be prepared to miss out on few targets.
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We need a LB. Nobody is going to complain if we sign a really good one for £18m. Mental how yous have been brainwashed into thinking every transfer should be a financial decision. We need a LB is the headline.
 
georgipep said:
Absolutely, and you can't say that spending more on transfers would guarantee earning more, can you?

Like every big business, there is investment budget and there is a fine balance between ambition and profit certainty.
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Well it depends. If we spend 100m on a young player who would rake 300m to the club in merchandise, trophies and future fees then we are better off then with a free transfer on huge salary that will probably spend his time in the treatment room
 
georgipep said:
Possibly, there is a lot to point to that but the majority is exaggerated by the media for clicks and attention.

Maybe I'm in the minority here but iI do not see the problem with leaving transfers for the last possible moment and saving a few million pounds in the process.

People now push the narrative that we should've signed Cavani earlier if he was truly a target. Well, OK, but what if he was one of X number of targets and we were evaluating options? I think most people equate United's dealings with inadequacy because of their own limitations to see the wider context.
Click to expand...

If want the target then make sure we secure the signings, if they are unreachable then don't waste time and sign the alternative that can be signed.

Liverpool wanted Lewis, they couldn't meet Norwich demand and week later they switched to Tsimikas and secured the signing.
Liverpool wanted Thiago, they dragged it too long but still managed to sign him.
Liverpool wanted Werner, they couldn't afford his release clause and they switched to Jota and secured the signing.
On top of it, they managed to sell some of their players that are no longer in the manager's plan anymore with also good fees.

We are the opposite. If VDS isn't at Ajax, Donny's saga will be dragged too long until now. The club should have gone with Telles as soon as Real asked that buy back option for Reguilon, but we decided to wait for 3 weeks until Spurs came in. We're dragging this too long.
 
georgipep said:
For some reason people believe that a different manager would do that (and better) and not fcuk off at the first moment when they don't get the support from the club they think they deserve.

I can't find one legitimate reason to believe that.
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Yeah for sure. We've seen just recently that most good managers will tell the club to feck off the moment they know they are getting screwed by the management. Few will stand by and try to salvage what they can. And one thing is for sure. The carousel of managers cannot keep turning forever as the club cannot afford to keep rebuilding every other year.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
If want the target then make sure we secure the signings, if they are unreachable then don't waste time and sign the alternative that can be signed.

Liverpool wanted Lewis, they couldn't meet Norwich demand and week later they switched to Tsimikas and secured the signing.
Liverpool wanted Thiago, they dragged it too long but still managed to sign him.
Liverpool wanted Werner, they couldn't afford his release clause and they switched to Jota and secured the signing.
On top of it, they managed to sell some of their players that are no longer in the manager's plan anymore with also good fees.

We are the opposite. If VDS isn't at Ajax, Donny's saga will be dragged too long until now. The club should have gone with Telles as soon as Real asked that buy back option for Reguilon, but we decided to wait for 3 weeks until Spurs came in. We're dragging this too long.
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I think your assessment is based on assumptions that are not backed with facts.

If Cavani was target #1, then yeah, we wasted a lot of time but also, did we need him from the first day he was available? Would he have made the difference against Palace? Maybe, maybe not.
 
devilish said:
Well it depends. If we spend 100m on a young player who would rake 300m to the club in merchandise, trophies and future fees then we are better off then with a free transfer on huge salary that will probably spend his time in the treatment room
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Both parts of your comment, however, are assumptions with no factual evidence.
I would have agreed with the first part for the merch if we weren't in the middle of a global pandemic which caused an economic contraction we've never seen before.

Why are you so sure people will buy merchandise like before when they are unemployed, can't socialise and even get together with their friends?
 
georgipep said:
I think your assessment is based on assumptions that are not backed with facts.

If Cavani was target #1, then yeah, we wasted a lot of time but also, did we need him from the first day he was available? Would he have made the difference against Palace? Maybe, maybe not.
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I've made zero assumption in that post.

Please highlight it for me where is this assumption I've made.

And I'm not sure how whether or no we need Cavani available for Palace game has anything to do with what I just posted. You're not reading mate and that's the reason why you still can't see the incompetence of our negotiator dealing with transfer.
 
Slysi17 said:
Yes they are but Manchester City or Liverpool and a host of other clubs don't operate from primarily a business point of view. Manchester United are rather worried about saving a few quid than winning trophies. Don't you fecking get that or something
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City are not as they are state backed but Liverpool are exactly like us, pure business.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
If want the target then make sure we secure the signings, if they are unreachable then don't waste time and sign the alternative that can be signed.

Liverpool wanted Lewis, they couldn't meet Norwich demand and week later they switched to Tsimikas and secured the signing.
Liverpool wanted Thiago, they dragged it too long but still managed to sign him.
Liverpool wanted Werner, they couldn't afford his release clause and they switched to Jota and secured the signing.
On top of it, they managed to sell some of their players that are no longer in the manager's plan anymore with also good fees.

We are the opposite. If VDS isn't at Ajax, Donny's saga will be dragged too long until now. The club should have gone with Telles as soon as Real asked that buy back option for Reguilon, but we decided to wait for 3 weeks until Spurs came in. We're dragging this too long.
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All of the transfers you mention and the reasoning for their sequence are based on media articles and assumptions.

Same for VdB, VDS and Ajax.

You cannot just write something and claim it is true. You don't know if Lewis was target #1 for Liverpool and where Tsimikas was on that list.
You don't know if Werner was ever really a target for Liverpool (by the way, Chelsea took their time to get it done too, same for Havertz).
How is waiting for last week to get Jota signed not considered being slow again? Why didn't they sign him when they signed Tsimikas?

UNITED ACADEMY said:
I've made zero assumption in that post.

Please highlight it for me where is this assumption I've made.

And I'm not sure how whether or no we need Cavani available for Palace game has anything to do with what I just posted. You're not reading mate and that's the reason why you still can't see the incompetence of our negotiator dealing with transfer.
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I wrote about the Palace game as that's the only game we haven't won and it could be used as argument to say earlier transfers could have changed that.

You have absolutely no insight into how our negotiations are going so I don't get what makes you a better judge of our club's ability than me or anyone else?
 
We all expect this every year in transfer window, but we still hope beyond hope that we pull something out of the fire.
We need to replace Woodward and Judge and get someone with football knowledge to do our transfer business, or we will just keep falling further and further behind until we won't even be a top 10 side.
I really can see us going down that road, if we don't change very soon.
 
devilish said:
Well it depends. If we spend 100m on a young player who would rake 300m to the club in merchandise, trophies and future fees then we are better off then with a free transfer on huge salary that will probably spend his time in the treatment room
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you are better than this. Such wild speculation, and assumptions. Individual players don’t make a great deal of difference in terms of merchandise. You know that.
 
georgipep said:
All of the transfers you mention and the reasoning for their sequence are based on media articles and assumptions.

Same for VdB, VDS and Ajax.

You cannot just write something and claim it is true. You don't know if Lewis was target #1 for Liverpool and where Tsimikas was on that list.
You don't know if Werner was ever really a target for Liverpool (by the way, Chelsea took their time to get it done too, same for Havertz).
How is waiting for last week to get Jota signed not considered being slow again? Why didn't they sign him when they signed Tsimikas?
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Ornstein has reported that United have had talked with Real for Reguilon, we didn't move on to Telles or another alternative for weeks until Spurs finally reached an agreement with Real. That's not assumption.

BBC reported Liverpool bid on Lewis was rejected. https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/53662264
This is for Werner news reported by Ornstein. https://theathletic.com/1817509/2020/05/16/werner-liverpool-transfer-talks-klopp-ornstein/
The reason why Liverpool was hesitate to sign Werner due to financial in doubt which was reported by Ornstein. As soon as they sealed Thiago, next day they sealed Jota. Simple, Thiago first before Jota.

BBC & Ornstein are the most reliable source out there. In other word, my assessments were backed with the most proven reliable source out there not based on my own assumption.

georgipep said:
I wrote about the Palace game as that's the only game we haven't won and it could be used as argument to say earlier transfers could have changed that.

You have absolutely no insight into how our negotiations are going so I don't get what makes you a better judge of our club's ability than me or anyone else?
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Whatever happens during the preparation & negotiation has nothing to do with us losing to Palace.

However, the fact (not assumption) that United dragged transfer too long before moving on to alternative without realising that they couldn't seal the deal show the incompetence and it's down to lack of understanding, & preparation in transfer business.
 
roonster09 said:
City are not as they are state backed but Liverpool are exactly like us, pure business.
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Truth, they are just better than us at running the football side but I'd say we are more prepared to push the boat out for a big signing than them. We are just atrocious at identifying the right players to spend big money on.
 
AneRu said:
Truth, they are just better than us at running the football side but I'd say we are more prepared to push the boat out for a big signing than them. We are just atrocious at identifying the right players to spend big money on.
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Like Sancho? We havent paid up so...
 
AneRu said:
Truth, they are just better than us at running the football side but I'd say we are more prepared to push the boat out for a big signing than them. We are just atrocious at identifying the right players to spend big money on.
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Exactly.
 
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