Alex Telles - SIGNED for United

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Cassidy said:
Too simplistic. You dont have to cross to assist. You can make clever passes etc
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But what does the team need given that we have a LW who likes to cut in to position himself for a short or quick intricate passes into and around the box? This team needs a left back who can cross the ball and is a big enough threat with that crossing ability to stretch a defense which inevitably creates space for the forwards.
 
Don't know who is coaching our defenders, but he needs to show them how to defend properly. Schoolboy stuff..
 
AneRu said:
But what does the team need given that we have a LW who likes to cut in to position himself for a short or quick intricate passes into and around the box? This team needs a left back who can cross the ball and is a big enough threat with that crossing ability to stretch a defense which inevitably creates space for the forwards.
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Christ is a general point about Shaws weaknesses. I think you will find Telles probably has assists from passes.
 
AneRu said:
But what does the team need given that we have a LW who likes to cut in to position himself for a short or quick intricate passes into and around the box? This team needs a left back who can cross the ball and is a big enough threat with that crossing ability to stretch a defense which inevitably creates space for the forwards.
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Yeah but we need forwards who are good at anticipating his crosses too.

The majority of Martial, Rashford and Greenwoods goals come from central play or individual efforts.

We play with attacking fullbacks but we, funnily, dont really utilize them.

Sure, AWB and Shaw have poor deliveries but can you confidently say that even with good balls into the box our forwards would take total advantage of them ?

In my view, we could sign Telles and watch him put good cross after good cross into the box but if none of our forwards create the movement inside the area then its practically pointless.
If this deal does go through, I think that is what will happen.

Its like signing Pogba and not giving him a more defensive minded partner. Or like signing Maguire and partner him alongside someone equally as slow.
We dont do sensible.

So, in a nutshell: You buy Telles, you need another type of forward.
 
FrankDrebin said:
Yeah but we need forwards who are good at anticipating his crosses too.

The majority of Martial, Rashford and Greenwoods goals come from central play or individual efforts.

We play with attacking fullbacks but we, funnily, dont really utilize them.

Sure, AWB and Shaw have poor deliveries but can you confidently say that even with good balls into the box our forwards would take total advantage of them ?

In my view, we could sign Telles and watch him put good cross after good cross into the box but if none of our forwards create the movement inside the area then its practically pointless.
If this deal does go through, I think that is what will happen.

Its like signing Pogba and not giving him a more defensive minded partner. Or like signing Maguire and partner him alongside someone equally as slow.
We dont do sensible.

So, in a nutshell: You buy Telles, you need another type of forward.
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It then becomes a coaching issue, if Martial won't run into the box in anticipation of crosses then drop him and play Ighalo who does.

My point was that having a good crosser overlapping Rashford will create space in central areas because the defense will get stretched to stop a dangerous cross from coming in. That presents more options for players like Bruno, Martial and Rashford.
 
AneRu said:
It then becomes a coaching issue, if Martial won't run into the box in anticipation of crosses then drop him and play Ighalo who does.

My point was that having a good crosser overlapping Rashford will create space in central areas because the defense will get stretched to stop a dangerous cross from coming in. That presents more options for players like Bruno, Martial and Rashford.
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Or you can do what good coaches generally do which is build a game plan that fits the players. If you take Klopp as an example, the team that he built with Liverpool is different to the one he built with Dortmund because he has different players.
 
I read his defending is mediocre at best, his best talents come from attacking.

Aren’t we just buying another Dalot?
 
Castia said:
I read his defending is mediocre at best, his best talents come from attacking.

Aren’t we just buying another Dalot?
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Telles not a dribbler also but a player who is very good at crossing only. If people expecting him to dominate the left flank then you will be disappointed.
 
JPRouve said:
Or you can do what good coaches generally do which is build a game plan that fits the players. If you take Klopp as an example, the team that he built with Liverpool is different to the one he built with Dortmund because he has different players.
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But we are already geared towards play centrally if you watch most of our goals. What we now need is a different option to bring variety and unpredictability into our play, an offensive LB who is a great crosser certainly brings that.
 
JPRouve said:
My issue is with the dig at United. PSG have been linked to Telles for months and for some reason when United are linked with the same players for a little bit more than a month, United are useless and can't seal a deal while the other club that has been linked with the same player is the one that is run properly or act swiftly even though nothing happened.
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I actually agree with your take on the situation. Telles might not be the best example though.

It's possible to cite Koulibaly for city. Or Thiago for Liverpool.

Thiago wanted Liverpool, for a couple of months now. Bayern wanted to sell. The price was not high. It still took a month to be finalised.

Koulibaly is a good example as well. Wants the move, City wants him and wanted him for half a year now and still nothing.

Transfers take time. Let's judge at the end of the window.
 
Mr H said:
I actually agree with your take on the situation. Telles might not be the best example though.

It's possible to cite Koulibaly for city. Or Thiago for Liverpool.

Thiago wanted Liverpool, for a couple of months now. Bayern wanted to sell. The price was not high. It still took a month to be finalised.

Koulibaly is a good example as well. Wants the move, City wants him and wanted him for half a year now and still nothing.

Transfers take time. Let's judge at the end of the window.
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A watched pot never boils.
 
AneRu said:
But we are already geared towards play centrally if you watch most of our goals. What we now need is a different option to bring variety and unpredictability into our play, an offensive LB who is a great crosser certainly brings that.
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But what has that got to do with swapping Martial and Ighalo or coaching issues regarding the type of runs that your striker is comfortable with? If you want to add to our game, you don't swap our top scorer and a player that is central to our attacking game for Ighalo. Also I'm always surprised by how the caf fascination for being unpredictable and having a plan B. Look around at top teams, none of them are unpredictable and none of them actually has a plan B, they excel at their plan A and hammer you with it.

And to go back to Telles, if he is a great crosser he will find one of Martial, Rashford, Greenwood, Bruno or the runners from midfield, that's what makes a great crosser.
 
JPRouve said:
But what has that got to do with swapping Martial and Ighalo or coaching issues regarding the type of runs that your striker is comfortable with? If you want to add to our game, you don't swap our top scorer and a player that is central to our attacking game for Ighalo. Also I'm always surprised by how the caf fascination for being unpredictable and having a plan B. Look around at top teams, none of them are unpredictable and none of them actually has a plan B, they excel at their plan A and hammer you with it.

And to go back to Telles, if he is a great crosser he will find one of Martial, Rashford, Greenwood, Bruno or the runners from midfield, that's what makes a great crosser.
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I was responding to a poster who said we would need a different type of forward if we get a great crosser in because Martial doesn't anticipate crosses or make the runs. I responded saying that it's a coaching issue, a manager just can't accept that his player wont make runs into the box or isn't comfortable with making those runs, surely. It's something that can easily be worked on during training or when doing video analysis and would gradually escalate to a disciplinary issue where dropping becomes necessary to force the player out of his comfort zone.
 
AneRu said:
I was responding to a poster who said we would need a different type of forward if we get a great crosser in because Martial doesn't anticipate crosses or make the runs. I responded saying that it's a coaching issue, a manager just can't accept that his player wont make runs into the box or isn't comfortable with making those runs, surely. It's something that can easily be worked on during training or when doing video analysis and would gradually escalate to a disciplinary issue where dropping becomes necessary to force the player out of his comfort zone.
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And I offered an alternative to changing the striker.
 
JPRouve said:
And I offered an alternative to changing the striker.
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Like I explained above, changing the striker is the extreme option when all else fails. The manager shouldn't just accept that his striker can't be bothered to make runs to meet crosses and shrug it off when it's such a potent weapon against well dug in defences that we struggle against.
 
AneRu said:
Like I explained above, changing the striker is the extreme option when all else fails. The manager shouldn't just accept that his striker can't be bothered to make runs to meet crosses and shrug it off when it's such a potent weapon against well dug in defences that we struggle against.
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It has nothing to do with not being bothered, players don't see everything and have tendencies that they have built since their childhood. Not two strikers are similar and will make or see the same runs, on that topic I always mention Klose who explained that Van Gaal would ask him to make certain runs, he would show those runs on videos but Klose explained that on the field he couldn't see them. It's baffling that people seem to think that players are just not bothered or are some sort of machines:

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...l-news/klose-couldnt-fulfil-van-gaals-7679466


"It was a tough time, particularly working with Van Gaal," Klose told Germany's Die Zeit newspaper.

"I didn't feel free. It was very difficult for me to fulfil his expectations. He was asking me to make runs I just couldn't see.

"I gave it all I could, but sometimes it just wasn't enough."
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A manager is supposed to ask his players to do what they are good at, he is supposed to take into account their decencies, he should never organize his tactics based on what his players can't/won't see on the field.
 
JPRouve said:
It has nothing to do with not being bothered, players don't see everything and have tendencies that they have built since their childhood. Not two strikers are similar and will make or see the same runs, on that topic I always mention Klose who explained that Van Gaal would ask him to make certain runs, he would show those runs on videos but Klose explained that on the field he couldn't see them. It's baffling that people seem to think that players are just not bothered or are some sort of machines:

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...l-news/klose-couldnt-fulfil-van-gaals-7679466




A manager is supposed to ask his players to do what they are good at, he is supposed to take into account their decencies, he should never organize his tactics based on what his players can't/won't see on the field.
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So you are basically saying players can't add new things to their game once their style of play is set? Isn't that the difference between the very best and the mediocre?

For what it's worth we have already seen Martial score two or three goals from a cross into the box. It's not something that's strange for a player to adapt to.
 
AneRu said:
So you are basically saying players can't add new things to their game once their style of play is set? Isn't that the difference between the very best and the mediocre?

For what it's worth we have already seen Martial score two or three goals from a cross into the box. It's not something that's strange for a player to adapt to.
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It's difficult for players to add new things to their style when they reach a certain point in their careers because it's based on repetition, few manage to do it but most don't. And no it's not the difference between the very best and mediocre players, the difference between these two categories is how they excelled at their strength and if anything you will find more jacks of all trades, masters of none among mediocre players.
 
I thought talking to players before a fee was agreed and the club gave permission was against the rules? Yet pretty much every transfer these days personal terms seem to get agreed first?
 
esmufc07 said:
I thought talking to players before a fee was agreed and the club gave permission was against the rules? Yet pretty much every transfer these days personal terms seem to get agreed first?
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Because its usually with the clubs permission. You dont have to agree a fee for that
 
esmufc07 said:
I thought talking to players before a fee was agreed and the club gave permission was against the rules? Yet pretty much every transfer these days personal terms seem to get agreed first?
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Must say I thought the same. Obviously you should be able to sound out players/agents to see if they'd be receptive to a move, but when you see reports suggesting wages/timescale having been agreed ahead of a bid, I tend to think the story is bull.
 
esmufc07 said:
I thought talking to players before a fee was agreed and the club gave permission was against the rules? Yet pretty much every transfer these days personal terms seem to get agreed first?
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It has never been against the rules. You can't speak to a player that isn't a free agent without the agreement of his employer though.
 
JPRouve said:
It's difficult for players to add new things to their style when they reach a certain point in their careers because it's based on repetition, few manage to do it but most don't. And no it's not the difference between the very best and mediocre players, the difference between these two categories is how they excelled at their strength and if anything you will find more jacks of all trades, masters of none among mediocre players.
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We will have to agree to disagree on this one but if I am a manager I am not accepting mu chief striker lumbering around the 18 yard line whilst balls are being whipped in with no one attacking him. It's such a basic skill that only requires effort not much else.
 
It’ll be nice to finally have an attacking full back again. Luke Shaw was always lacking in that area, the trade off was that he was supposed to be great defensively. But when he’s nowhere to be seen as Andros fecking Townsend mugs you off for the Nth time, what’s the point? Might as well sign someone who actually gets forward.
 
esmufc07 said:
I thought talking to players before a fee was agreed and the club gave permission was against the rules? Yet pretty much every transfer these days personal terms seem to get agreed first?
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I think the easiest way to sidestep this rule is just speaking to the player's agent. It's impossible to enforce what an agent discusses with any club since they arent signed with any particular club. The urgent then relays the offer so it's a difficult rule to enforce.
 
AneRu said:
We will have to agree to disagree on this one but if I am a manager I am not accepting mu chief striker lumbering around the 18 yard line whilst balls are being whipped in with no one attacking him. It's such a basic skill that only requires effort not much else.
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Sorry to say it but that's why you are not a manager. And no it's not a skill that only requires effort which is also a baffling claim, whether a player will see certain runs or not is based on spatial awareness, vision and anticipation also there is generally more than one run available, so the one a player will pick depends also on tendencies.

Edit: To illustrate my point here you have a great interview of SAF:

Are these changes related to the need to accommodate exceptional talents like a Cantona, a Giggs, a Ronaldo or a Rooney?

No. Although I’ve always strongly believed in possession, because of my development as a coach, and because I’ve come to a club which can embrace players of that type—which has always had them: Think of Bobby Charlton, think of George Best—then you learn that you’ve got to let people express themselves. That is development [for a coach]. That was the same at Aberdeen, where I had very, very talented players like Peter Weir and Gordon Strachan. A player like Giggs is a godsend for a manager. He got into the first team when he was 16 years of age, and [for 22 years] he’s played for that same team! It takes a lot to do that; it takes an exceptional player to do that. And yes, from time to time, his form has fluctuated, but, when you put it in perspective … it’s sensational. We’ve always had to encourage that part of expression. There’s no way Eric Cantona would have been a great player if we hadn’t allowed him to express himself, to be Eric Cantona. I think we were a perfect club for him, a club where he was able to stick his chest out and say, “I’m the man here, I’m the king here.” Because he had this aura, this presence, this belief in himself …

And you like that in a player …

Well, yes! If you’ve got that great belief—do it! It was the same with Ronaldo. Don’t discourage him at any time to beat men, because he’s the player you’re looking for. When we were building the ’99 team, I wanted Dwight Yorke, because he was the only player in England that I could see who could beat his man in the last third as a centre-forward. He could turn a man and beat him. There’s always a balance of thoughts and a balance of instruction through all teams. To some players, you say: Keep your game simple, because they’re better when they’re uncomplicated. And there are players who can take the game to a different level, a level which I can’t see myself, because I do not have their vision, and they see things that I, as a coach, don’t see. Ronaldo, Scholes, Cantona, Giggs. … They have that exceptional vision of the game. Giggs has this gift of pure balance … you know, he never earns penalty kicks! Do you know why? Because he never goes down. He stumbles, and carries on; because when he gets hit, his balance is so good that he stumbles through. Unbelievable! The key is also to create teams who trusted each other, are committed to each other. The best teams are always the ones which have a good bond with each other, and can understand when a player is having a bad time, and will support each other.
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Mr H said:
I actually agree with your take on the situation. Telles might not be the best example though.

It's possible to cite Koulibaly for city. Or Thiago for Liverpool.

Thiago wanted Liverpool, for a couple of months now. Bayern wanted to sell. The price was not high. It still took a month to be finalised.

Koulibaly is a good example as well. Wants the move, City wants him and wanted him for half a year now and still nothing.

Transfers take time. Let's judge at the end of the window.
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I would say that they are all good examples because people get upset about loose links and actual transfers, they seemingly can't chill and understand that not only most transfers take time but also that papers link players with clubs all the time and sometimes for very long period of times.
 
FrankDrebin said:
If we get Telles I also believe we need a forward who's going to anticipate his deliveries. I love Martial but he's very flat footed in the box at times.

By all accounts Telles has a good partnership with Marega, who looks like quite a dominant figure. Double deal ?

The football cliché of :it takes two to make a successful pass comes to mind.
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Jimenez would benefit from his type of crossing
But we’re broke
 
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