Alas poor Carrick...WTF has happened?

[Annihilate Now!]

I'm not sure about top 10 midfielders, but he's probably one of the better defensive midfielders in Europe, and definitely is when you restrict it further to ball-playing defensive midfielders.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

All stats show that Carrick is one of the best passers in Europe. He makes more forward passes than Xavi, so I'm not sure what you are on about. They are different passers and play diffeently, and Xavi is also a better player, but Carrick's stats say that he is certainly up there.

Use your eyes. There is no way Carrick is on the same level in terms of passing (and otherwise) as Xavi. It's a ludacrous claim.

As usual, opinions on Carrick flunctuate from one extreme to another. He's not shit and he's not one of the best. There are players who fall in the middle as well. He's one of them. He's a very good player who isn't up there with the best midfielders.

Vidic is in the bracket of best defenders (for me he is the best) when fit, Rooney and RVP among the best stikers, Evra used to be among the best fullbacks. Carrick is isn't of the same quality as them with respect to his position.

The top tier, from the players I see (and I don't watch as many leagues as many others so the sample is small) would include players like Iniesta, Xavi, Alonso, Fabregas, Toure etc, although I'd argue that some of these are in a seperate bracket even from that group.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It goes from one extreme to the other on here though.

When he's playing poor everyone thinks he's rubbish and not worthy of being our main man in midfield, when he's playing at his best suddenly he becomes one of the best midfielders in European football.

Carrick is a very good midfielder in the best form of his career but "one of the best in Europe" he is not.

Agree. It's a bit like when people here thought Fletcher was world class or whatever. He was very good at the job he did but he was never among the top midfielders in the world. Carrick is better than Fletcher but it's a similar thing.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

"He is just Carrick", what the feck does that mean anyway?

Pretty obvious. Carrick is never going to be among the best midfielders in the world. He hasn't got it in him. He is a support player, he keeps things ticking and does an effective job. The top players influence games big time and take control, like Toure when he made us his bitch last season or like Alonso did for Madrid last season or Iniesta and Xavi for the last half a decade. Or Fabregas can do. Or Wilshere will do pretty soon.

 

[KM]

Pretty obvious. Carrick is never going to be among the best midfielders in the world. He hasn't got it in him. He is a support player, he keeps things ticking and does an effective job. The top players influence games big time and take control, like Toure when he made us his bitch last season or like Alonso did for Madrid last season or Iniesta and Xavi for the last half a decade. Or Fabregas can do. Or Wilshere will do pretty soon.

Bullshit.

Have you even watched him this season?

He has outplayed two of that players in that list this season alone. But yeah let's keep talking in cliches.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Bullshit.

Have you even watched him this season?

He has outplayed two of that players in that list this season alone. But yeah let's keep talking in cliches.

City and Arsenal were largely shit against us though, it's hard to blame Wilshire or Yaya.

More often than not, Yaya has totally bossed the midfield against us, one bad game doesn't against us doesn't change the fact that he's a better midfielder than Carrick.

 

[Revan]

The best midfielder in the league this season, without a doubt.

 

[KM]

City and Arsenal were largely shit against us though, it's hard to blame Wilshire or Yaya.

More often than not, Yaya has totally bossed the midfield against us, one bad game doesn't against us doesn't change the fact that he's a better midfielder than Carrick.

Well considering they're the midfield and engine room of their teams, why it's hard to blame them?

Carrick took control and influenced those games.

Also when has Yaya bossed the game against us apart from the matches in the last season(PL only). I remember Scholes bossing him in the boring 0-0 draw at Emirates two years ago.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Bullshit.

Have you even watched him this season?

He has outplayed two of that players in that list this season alone. But yeah let's keep talking in cliches.

Wilshere? He plays for Arsenal. We always beat Arsenal, and that was one of his first games back from injury. Put them in similar teams and make Wilshere a bit older and he'd piss on Carrick. They abilities are not on the same level, which is kind of my point.

City have been crap this season. Do you remember how crap Carrick was before last season? He was through a pretty terrible phase after the CL finals. Not sure we should take just a season (or half of it) to define a player.

 

[KM]

Yeah just because Carrick was average in the 10-11 season, that means we should disregard the good performances in the three seasons before that and now one and half seasons after that. That's sound logic.

Let's define him as a player on the basis of that 10-11 season.

 

[kouroux]

Who has been better than Carrick at CM this season in the PL ?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Yeah just because Carrick was average in the 10-11 season, that means we should disregard the good performances in the three seasons before that and now one and half seasons after that. That's sound logic.

I didn't do that. You did that with Toure. I'm trying to tell you your logic is daft.

Anyway, we all know the seasons he played well and the ones he didn't. But even his "well" doesn't match the top midfielders. He's one level below them, which is still a very good level to be at.

Also, if United outplay Arsenal, it doesn't necessarily mean Carrick has outplayed Wilshere. Being in a better team that as a whole plays better plays a big part in that. Otherwise, Fletcher used to dominatevFabregas, which wasn;t the case at all.

 

[KM]

I didn't do that. You did that with Toure. I'm trying to tell you your logic is daft.

Anyway, we all know the seasons he played well and the ones he didn't. But even his "well" doesn't match the top midfielders. He's one level below them, which is still a very good level to be at.

Also, if United outplay Arsenal, it doesn't necessarily mean Carrick has outplayed Wilshere. Being in a better team that as a whole plays better plays a big part in that. Otherwise, Fletcher used to dominate Fabregas, which wasn;t the case at all.

When did I say Yaya Toure was average on the basis of this season?
You're making things up.

Also your last point is wrong. Even peterstorey admitted that Carrick was the best player on the pitch during the match.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

When did I say Yaya Toure was average on the basis of this season?
You're making things up.

Also your last point is wrong. Even peterstorey admitted that Carrick was the best player on the pitch.

What's the relevance of Carrick having a better game than Toure then? Is Toure not allowed to have a bad game? All our players do. City have been disfunctional this season. We've been flying. Perspective, and all that.

I'm not disputing that Carrick was the best player on the pitch. I'm saying that we generally win against Arsenal and that it's harder for Wilshere to perform well agianst us than it is for Carrick/Cleverley to do so against Arsenal.

Anyway, this won't go anywhere. I just don't see how he's in that top bracket. Even when he plays well I don't see how he matches the top level of those players. For me, he's just a step below.

 

[Brightonian]

I didn't do that. You did that with Toure. I'm trying to tell you your logic is daft.

Anyway, we all know the seasons he played well and the ones he didn't. But even his "well" doesn't match the top midfielders. He's one level below them, which is still a very good level to be at.

It depends what you mean by 'top midfielders', but the way he's playing now, which I think is a level above anything he's produced before, matches the quality of 'top midfielders'. Ok, he's not Iniesta or Xavi, but I'd say he's playing as well as any midfielder in the PL, for example.

 

[KM]

You said "The top players influence games big time and take control", I pointed to you an example of Carrick taking control of the big game at Etihad and outplaying Yaya Toure who's once again a top midfielder.

How's that not relevant to what you posted?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

You said "The top players influence games big time and take control", I pointed to you an example of Carrick taking control of the big game at Etihad and outplaying Yaya Toure who's once again a top midfielder.

How's that not relevant to what you posted?

I don't mean in one game, of course. You make these judgements over what a player does week in week out. Anyway, I rate his upper level differently to yours. So we're not going to agree. When he's in form I see a very good player. You see one of the best midfielders in the world. I simply can't agree with that assessment.

 

[Sarni]

I don't mean in one game, of course. You make these judgements over what a player does week in week out. Anyway, I rate his upper level differently to yours. So we're not going to agree. When he's in form I see a very good player. You see one of the best midfielders in the world. I simply can't agree with that assessment.

Yaya doesn't influence games on a weekly basis. At Barcelona he was pretty anonymous while other players did the offensive work. You're juding him on a few impressive games towards the end of last season and the FA Cup goal against United.

 

[Brightonian]

I don't mean in one game, of course. You make these judgements over what a player does week in week out. Anyway, I rate his upper level differently to yours. So we're not going to agree. When he's in form I see a very good player. You see one of the best midfielders in the world. I simply can't agree with that assessment.

Over the last 3 months or so, we've got ourselves 12 points ahead at the top of the Premier League table. Carrick's consistently excellent form over that time has probably been the biggest contributory factor. Is that a judgement of 'what a player does week in week out'?

Honestly, even the Carrick-blind English media is currently praising him more than you are.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Yaya doesn't influence games on a weekly basis. At Barcelona he was pretty anonymous while other players did the offensive work. You're juding him on a few impressive games towards the end of last season and the FA Cup goal against United.

Bit of a weird thing to say, seeing as he was told to do the defensive work at Barca and sit back, it's not like he was given the choice. When he went to City he was given far more license to go forward and really showed how good he can be.

Also, last season he was very much playing quality on a week-by-week basis.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Over the last 3 months or so, we've got ourselves 12 points ahead at the top of the Premier League table. Carrick's consistently excellent form over that time has probably been the biggest contributory factor. Is that a judgement of 'what a player does week in week out'?

Honestly, even the Carrick-blind English media is currently praising him more than you are.

Firstly our lead has been build over the course of the season, not the last three months. Secondly, he's been the BIGGEST contributory factor? He's been as good as Van Persie then? Seriously, he's a good player he's not that good. Rafael has probably been our second best player. Then there is Rooney who even at 70-80% is a better player than Carrick at a 100%.

Like I said, he's very good. What more praise is he getting outside the caf/United fans? Who outside of that group thinks he's up there with the best in the world?

 

[Massive Spanner]

Over the last 3 months or so, we've got ourselves 12 points ahead at the top of the Premier League table. Carrick's consistently excellent form over that time has probably been the biggest contributory factor. Is that a judgement of 'what a player does week in week out'?

Honestly, even the Carrick-blind English media is currently praising him more than you are.

Has anyone not said he's been excellent this season? Just because he doesn't regard him as one of the best midfielders in Europe doesn't mean he hasn't been praising him!

Also surely RvP and Rafael have had larger impacts than him?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Has anyone not said he's been excellent this season? Just because he doesn't regard him as one of the best midfielders in Europe doesn't mean he hasn't been praising him!

Also surely RvP and Rafael have had larger impacts than him?

This one of those cases where a player is so underrated that others start overrating him in return. It was like this with Fletcher too. He was such an "unsung hero", he suddenly turned into the new Roy Keane overnight. With him we'd have suddenly been able to take Barca on according to a few. Sigh.

 

[Rossa]

Firstly our lead has been build over the course of the season, not the last three months. Secondly, he's been the BIGGEST contributory factor? He's been as good as Van Persie then? Seriously, he's a good player he's not that good. Rafael has probably been our second best player. Then there is Rooney who even at 70-80% is a better player than Carrick at a 100%.

Like I said, he's very good. What more praise is he getting outside the caf/United fans? Who outside of that group thinks he's up there with the best in the world?

Rooney better than Carrick this season? Well, that says it all then - you are blind to the truth, mate. Rooney has been rubbish compared to Carrick this season. I would agree that I would put RVP and Rafael ahead of Carrick, but that does imply that Carrick has been our third best player in a team that is leading by 12 points and doing well in Europe. RVP is the best striker in the PL and probably to three or four in the world whereas Rafael is arguably the best fullback in the league this season.

Carrick's calmness on the ball and his vision is what makes him a top midfielder. His passing is sublime, and if you can't see that because he isn't as attack-minded as others, then you really need to watch him more closely. Particularly after Scholes is playing less, we see Carrick as opening up defenses with lovely long range passing and finding Cleverley and Rooney with some lovely one and two touch passing. He is much better than Gerrard at this, but Gerrard would stilll get the praise because he runs about more and creates more goal scoring opportunities (admittedly, he has been in good form recently too)

 

[Massive Spanner]

When did he say Rooney has been better this season, exactly?

 

[Rossa]

When did he say Rooney has been better this season, exactly?

"Then there is Rooney who even at 70-80% is a better player than Carrick at a 100%. "

If anything, that certainly implies that he thinks so...

 

[Massive Spanner]

No it doesn't, he's saying when Rooney plays at 80% he's better than Carrick. He didn't say "Rooney has been 70/80% this season and that's been better than Carrick." It was clearly just in reference to people overrating Carrick, and pointing out that Rooney is a better player than him.

 

[Rossa]

No it doesn't, he's saying when Rooney plays at 80% he's better than Carrick. He didn't say "Rooney has been 70/80% this season and that's been better than Carrick." It was clearly just in reference to people overrating Carrick, and pointing out that Rooney is a better player than him.

OK, if so that was me misunderstanding. Still, I think it is a bizarre statement because if anything, Carrick has been much more important and clearly better than Rooney this season. With RVP, Rooney's importance has drastically diminished, whereas we have no other players to fill Carrick's boots, so to speak.

I think Rooney plays at 80% atm, and I think he is clearly worse than Carrick. That is a case of overrating Rooney and underrating Carrick. I never said Carrick was level with Xavi; I said his passing stats are and that because he sits deeper and doesn't offer those penetrative passes as often he isn't recognised for it. What he does is that he keeps us ticking and binds our defense and attack together.

Who do you think would do a better job than Carrick atm?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Rooney better than Carrick this season? Well, that says it all then - you are blind to the truth, mate. Rooney has been rubbish compared to Carrick this season.

Carrick has probably been better than Rooney this season but my point is that I don't rate Carrick's top level is as high as you do. Even his top level would just about match Rooney's 70% or something like that. Even this season while Carrick has been in much better form than Rooney, the latter has noway been "rubbish" in comparison to Carrick. Carrick simply isn't that good a footballer for me. And Rooney is too much better than him for that to happen.

Carrick's calmness on the ball and his vision is what makes him a top midfielder. His passing is sublime, and if you can't see that because he isn't as attack-minded as others, then you really need to watch him more closely. Particularly after Scholes is playing less, we see Carrick as opening up defenses with lovely long range passing and finding Cleverley and Rooney with some lovely one and two touch passing. He is much better than Gerrard at this, but Gerrard would stilll get the praise because he runs about more and creates more goal scoring opportunities (admittedly, he has been in good form recently too)

I think his passing is good but again, sublime passing is what I see Xavi, Pirlo, Iniesta, Alonso do. And what do you mean it's because he isn't as attack minded as others? He plays sublime defensive passes??

 

[Massive Spanner]

OK, if so that was me misunderstanding. Still, I think it is a bizarre statement because if anything, Carrick has been much more important and clearly better than Rooney this season. With RVP, Rooney's importance has drastically diminished, whereas we have no other players to fill Carrick's boots, so to speak.

I think Rooney plays at 80% atm, and I think he is clearly worse than Carrick. That is a case of overrating Rooney and underrating Carrick. I never said Carrick was level with Xavi; I said his passing stats are and that because he sits deeper and doesn't offer those penetrative passes as often he isn't recognised for it. What he does is that he keeps us ticking and binds our defense and attack together.

Who do you think would do a better job than Carrick atm?

That's the fault of our manager and staff for not sorting out our midfield, more than anything. We shouldn't be so stupidly reliant on Carrick in the middle of the park.

Also, when Rooney is on his game he is a far more influential player than Carrick, regardless of whether RvP is in the team.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Firstly our lead has been build over the course of the season, not the last three months. Secondly, he's been the BIGGEST contributory factor? He's been as good as Van Persie then? Seriously, he's a good player he's not that good. Rafael has probably been our second best player. Then there is Rooney who even at 70-80% is a better player than Carrick at a 100%.

Like I said, he's very good. What more praise is he getting outside the caf/United fans? Who outside of that group thinks he's up there with the best in the world?

At the end of November we were only 1 point ahead of City.

Also, without Carrick, we'd have had some massive problems in midfield. He's a great player and you're seriously underrating him, for what reason I have no idea. He's been the best midfielder in the country this season... and yet he's only a "good" player? He's played central midfielder for Manchester United for the past however many years and he's not a top player? Give me a fecking break.

 

[Nathan]

When will we come to accept the value of Michael Carrick, the players who line up alongside him appreciate his role and importance to the team. Im not sure what we expect him to do, he is not in the Toure mould but he offers something vast different.

Let's give him the respect he deserves.

 

[finneh]

At the end of November we were only 1 point ahead of City.

Also, without Carrick, we'd have had some massive problems in midfield. He's a great player and you're seriously underrating him, for what reason I have no idea. He's been the best midfielder in the country this season... and yet he's only a "good" player? He's played central midfielder for Manchester United for the past however many years and he's not a top player? Give me a fecking break.

The first sentence is more to do with City's failure than anything else. We've "only" gained 5 extra points in our last 13 games vs our first 13, whereas we're 11 points better off in respect of City.

I'm pretty sure everyone is agreeing that Carrick is a very good player. He is absolutely vital to United firstly because he's a very good player (particularly in the last 15-16 months) and secondly because he is the only player in our squad who can perform well in his role.

Most people seem to be stating the not-so-contentious point that he isn't one of the best midfielders in the world, he is in the category below. Not sure how this seemingly contentiousness view is being contended so vehemently.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Bit of a weird thing to say, seeing as he was told to do the defensive work at Barca and sit back, it's not like he was given the choice. When he went to City he was given far more license to go forward and really showed how good he can be.

Also, last season he was very much playing quality on a week-by-week basis.

Yep he had Busquets' role back then. Which was bizarre for him, cos prior to that he was an AM, and more or less reverted back to this position with City. He's a top CM in that he can definitely influence games bursting from midfield and being decisive in important games (which a mark of big players, I'm not downplaying it one bit), but the aftershock is pretty bad, especially nowadays, when he goes on those runs, you can tell that for a few minutes after that, he's completely knackered, not in his position and not of any use to the team. I guess it's worth it when those runs are paying off, but he seems less effective this season.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

The first sentence is more to do with City's failure than anything else. We've "only" gained 5 extra points in our last 13 games vs our first 13, whereas we're 11 points better off in respect of City.

I'm pretty sure everyone is agreeing that Carrick is a very good player. He is absolutely vital to United firstly because he's a very good player (particularly in the last 15-16 months) and secondly because he is the only player in our squad who can perform well in his role.

Most people seem to be stating the not-so-contentious point that he isn't one of the best midfielders in the world, he is in the category below. Not sure how this seemingly contentiousness view is being contended so vehemently.

Regardless of what City have done, we still have to win the games to get clear, and it is in this period of time that we have raced ahead of City. Regardless, whether due to City or us, the 12 point lead has been established in this time period... I'm not even sure thats up for debate?

Anwyay, I contend the idea that he isn't a "top player" and that he's just a "good player" (two things which have been said over these last two pages.. sure, it's all just abstract words, but I still take issue). As I previously said, I wouldn't say he;s one of the best midfielders in Europe... but he'd be worth a mark for top 10 defensive midfielders, and certainly in the conversation for top 10 ball-playing defensive midfielder.

Also, lets be honest, there are only 3 or 4 players in our whole squad that would be in the conversation for "best player in Europe" in their respective positions.

 

[finneh]

Regardless of what City have done, we still have to win the games to get clear, and it is in this period of time that we have raced ahead of City. Regardless, whether due to City or us, the 12 point lead has been established in this time period... I'm not even sure thats up for debate?

Anwyay, I contend the idea that he isn't a "top player" and that he's just a "good player" (two things which have been said over these last two pages.. sure, it's all just abstract words, but I still take issue). As I previously said, I wouldn't say he;s one of the best midfielders in Europe... but he'd be worth a mark for top 10 defensive midfielders, and certainly in the conversation for top 10 ball-playing defensive midfielder.

Also, lets be honest, there are only 3 or 4 players in our whole squad that would be in the conversation for "best player in Europe" in their respective positions.

My point was that we've played equally well in the first (much more difficult) 13 games than we have in the last 13 games. I felt that your statement implied that the last 3 months was the reason we are doing so well, which isn't really the case.

I think most people would agree with the bolded to be honest. Quotes like the following is what is slightly baffling:

If he played for Arsenal he'd have won a player of the year award by now.

United players are usually underrated due to the team mentality. You can see that evidently from simple things like FIFA 13 where United players really are shit compared to most other teams. You hear it from pundits who year after year say that United's starting XI is weaker than the other top four contenders.

Carrick is one of the best midfielders in the league, and arguably one of the finest in Europe. He's not a flashy dribbler or an acrobatic player like Iniesta, but his passing is up there with Xavi in terms of accuracy. He doesn't assist as much, but he sits lower and is probably better at defending...

All stats show that Carrick is one of the best passers in Europe. He makes more forward passes than Xavi, so I'm not sure what you are on about. They are different passers and play diffeently, and Xavi is also a better player, but Carrick's stats say that he is certainly up there.

The best midfielder in the league this season, without a doubt.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

... Has there been a better central midfielder in the league this season? I can't think of one...

 

[amolbhatia50k]

, I contend the idea that he isn't a "top player" and that he's just a "good player" (two things which have been said over these last two pages.. sure, it's all just abstract words, but I still take issue). As I previously said, I wouldn't say he;s one of the best midfielders in Europe... but he'd be worth a mark for top 10 defensive midfielders, and certainly in the conversation for top 10 ball-playing defensive midfielder.

Also, lets be honest, there are only 3 or 4 players in our whole squad that would be in the conversation for "best player in Europe" in their respective positions.

Apart from the considering him a top player bit, I agree with the rest of your post, which means we just define a top player differently. And good, very good, there's not that much difference really.

 

[finneh]

... Has there been a better central midfielder in the league this season? I can't think of one...

"Without a doubt" was my point. I'm sure if you asked 20 fans of the 20 Premier League teams who's been the best midfielder in the league this season you'd get 4-5 maybe saying Carrick.

Obviously I account for Cafe bias, but it is still very much debatable.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Carrick's got a good case for that, but the quality of CMs in the league this season has been appalling.