Alarming statistics of David de Gea in our hammerings from this season so far, and last season

[The Oracle]

Goalkeeper has to be more than a shot stopper. He has to be actively involved in the build up.

You see Allison become almost an extra CB when he has the ball.

Dea Gea limits us severely in that facet of play.

I agree that De Gea excelling at another area of goalkeeping such as being involved in build up play which you mention, would be massive for us if his shot-stopping ability was what it used to be.

I would argue that any other facet of goalkeeping that he excelled at would be massive for us... even if the facet was that he was excellent at organising our defence.

It is depressing when there are keepers out there who excel at maybe 3 or 4 facets of goalkeeping, and we're wishing that De Gea excelled at just two of them.

 

[The Oracle]

Both stats and the eye test tells you that De Gea is not a good keeper apart from the odd wonder save

I agree.

 

[The Oracle]

I dont get why OP would feel a burning need to be dishontest about the statistics though. He wouldnt go online and make something up to fit his own narrative?

OP: Your argument directly accuses De Gea of being at fault for at least a majority of the goals conceded in these losses. Arguments like this that completely ignore shotquality, the team in front of him and all other relevant variables that contribute to a goal conceded become complely irrelevant to your argument when you try to shoehorn in an opinin that can be disproven by a 4 second google search.

There is nothing dishonest about the statistics.

I looked at our biggest defeats from what has been less than 2 seasons (as this season hasn't finished yet), and I sourced the shots on target faced in those matches and they looked like this:
9 matches... 72 shots on target... 30 saves... 42 goals conceded

I then called into question De Gea's greatest attribute, his shot-stopping ability.

 

[The Oracle]

Or is it that we should've had more thrashings but he's managed to prevent a few of them?

He does do this annoying thing when we're getting battered where he just stands rooted for the last few goals though.

Which says that De Gea is not closing down the angle to give himself a higher chance of preventing a goal.

 

[GifLord]

You could have 3 goalkeepers in the goal and we'd still lose all those games.
Why don't you single out the true clowns in the team.
Fred, McTominay, AWB, Dalot, Weighorst

 

[The Oracle]

The point about this below 50% saves rate is that when we are being soundly beaten, he is definitely not pulling even an average game by his own standards. I don't see anywhere in the OP any accusation that De Gea is at fault for the loss. But he certainly didn't help.

This.

The angle of the thread is about De Gea's shot-stopping ability. If he excelled at just one other facet of goalkeeping - such as organising his defence for example, then the results of the games may not have changed, i.e. we still may have lost the match, however there is every possibility that the goals conceded could have been reduced.

 

[The Oracle]

Drops a shit thread. fecks off without reply

I'm here

You are entitled to your opinion.

 

[The Oracle]

@The Oracle I don’t think you’re a United fan.

You last posted on the forum in December about the World Cup. Your last post about United was in October around the time we were beaten by City.

Since Christmas United have been the form team in Europe, beating Barca, City and winning a first trophy in 6 years yet you’ve not posted once.

Then United get beaten by Liverpool Sunday and you’ve created five different threads to discuss the topic in the United forum and posted multiple times in three days.

Why do people like you bother with this kinda rubbish? No idea what you get out of it if I’m honest.

What is very clear from your post is that emotions are running high.

I have noticed on the forum other posters' allegiances being called into question, with one poster being accused of being a rival fan because he had his posting history set to private - so no-one could see his previous postings. It then transpired that he was a Utd fan all along and had even been to matches with fellow posters. It was quite bizarre what the poster was subjected to.

Now I find myself in a similar situation to the poster who was being accused of something that wasn't true.

For your information my post history is there in full for you to see, and always has been (not that it matters if it is set to private or not). If you can't ascertain the information that you are seeking to find throughout my posting history, i.e. which club I support, then that will be because the delusion you have exists only with you, and doesn't exist in reality - therefore what you are trying to seek you shall not find... because your delusion is not real.

I have no issue with someone having an opinion because that is what this forum is about, and is what makes it great.
However because your opinion is similar to the bizarre one that another poster was subjected to just recently, I am directing you to look through my whole posting history, and with a bit of a calm head and less emotion, it should transpire to you the team I support. I'm not going to spell the team out for you, but even now it should be really obvious.


Oh and by the way, can I book some time off the Cafe in the future, I just wanted to clear it with you that I am OK to do so, and you won't accuse me of anything upon my return?

 

[The Oracle]

Problem with him is we're put in danger in many situations that shouldnt happen but we allowed them to happen because he's not a proactive GK. He was great 4 years ago, now he's more of a liability than a worldclass keeper. We need to move on from him as sad as that sounds because he was an absolute start for many years.

There is a recurring theme in this thread, and that is that of the many facets of goalkeeping (in your example the facet of being proactive), De Gea only excels at shot-stopping, and when that shot-stopping becomes less than elite, and even down to levels of being average; it highlights De Gea's deficiencies in every other aspect of goalkeeping even more.

 

[SAFMUTD]

There is a recurring theme in this thread, and that is that of the many facets of goalkeeping (in your example the facet of being proactive), De Gea only excels at shot-stopping, and when that shot-stopping becomes less than elite, and even down to levels of being average; it highlights De Gea's deficiencies in every other aspect of goalkeeping even more.

Exactly, when was the last time De Gea made an amazing save? at this point he's only making average/good saves nothing espectacular so all the other deficiencies of his game are more prone to be critiziced. Specially his lack of aerial game he stays roots to his line even with floated crosses. Opportunities that should be an easy grab for him become chances as he's really poor in that aspect.

 

[The Oracle]

You could have 3 goalkeepers in the goal and we'd still lose all those games.
Why don't you single out the true clowns in the team.
Fred, McTominay, AWB, Dalot, Weighorst

Well in that case, De Gea must be the Ringmaster then, and he is not organising the 'True clowns' as he doesn't organise his defence, a facet of goalkeeping that he is deficient at.

However this thread is about the one area of goalkeeping that De Gea does excel at, and that is shot-stopping.
Whether that shot-stopping ability is anywhere near as good as it used to consistently be is up for debate; and in my opinion he no longer consistently excels at shot-stopping.

 

[TheReligion]

What is very clear from your post is that emotions are running high.

I have noticed on the forum other posters' allegiances being called into question, with one poster being accused of being a rival fan because he had his posting history set to private - so no-one could see his previous postings. It then transpired that he was a Utd fan all along and had even been to matches with fellow posters. It was quite bizarre what the poster was subjected to.

Now I find myself in a similar situation to the poster who was being accused of something that wasn't true.

For your information my post history is there in full for you to see, and always has been (not that it matters if it is set to private or not). If you can't ascertain the information that you are seeking to find throughout my posting history, i.e. which club I support, then that will be because the delusion you have exists only with you, and doesn't exist in reality - therefore what you are trying to seek you shall not find... because your delusion is not real.

I have no issue with someone having an opinion because that is what this forum is about, and is what makes it great.
However because your opinion is similar to the bizarre one that another poster was subjected to just recently, I am directing you to look through my whole posting history, and with a bit of a calm head and less emotion, it should transpire to you the team I support. I'm not going to spell the team out for you, but even now it should be really obvious.


Oh and by the way, can I book some time off the Cafe in the future, I just wanted to clear it with you that I am OK to do so, and you won't accuse me of anything upon my return?

Confirmation that you’ve been rumbled.

 

[Longshanks]

What you're implying there in a roundabout way, is that De Gea's facets of goalkeeping (other than shot-stopping), actually lead to him facing more attempts at his goal.

So in essence he is the creator of his own problems, with those problems resulting in him having to make more saves, and the more saves he's having to make, the more chance there is of him conceding.... from many chances that he is responsible for creating!

Yes the 'De Gea paradox' thriving in the cahos and confusion that he is partially responsible for creating anyway.

Or sometimes not thriving on a off day for his shot stopping and we take a hammering.

Even more prevalent under braver managers willing to play more open and attacking football.

 

[justsomebloke]

Nor does it imply the opposite. It depends on the model, the margin for error, the degree of confidence you're looking for and what kind of conclusion you're trying to draw from the data.

Of course it doesn't imply the opposite. If it's pointless, it's pointless - it doesn't tell you anything much, one way or the other. Second point, yes. For instance, if a player has a 1 stat for crosses made in a game, then that would disprove a claim that the player contributed with a lot of good crosses in that game. But in this particular case, you are clearly making a point - De Gea's qualities as a shot-stopper - about which a particular stat (Sv%) for a single game cannot say anything meaningful.

 

[Gio]

Here's the expected save-% for the Liverpool goals using said PSxG:

1st goal (Gakpo): 45%
2nd goal (Nunez): 27%
3rd goal (Gakpo 1): 4%
4th goal (Salah): 73%
5th goal (Nunez): 74%
6th goal (Salah): 33%
7th goal (Firmino): 55%

Here's the City game:

1st goal (Foden): 85%
2nd goal (Haaland): 86%
3rd goal (Haaland): 12%
4th goal (Foden): 12%
5th goal (Haaland): 97%
6th goal (Foden): 21%

Looking at the replay of these goals you can easily just write off post-shot xG as pure non-sense.

Good analysis. Think the stat is arse-over-tit really.

1st goal (Gakpo): 45% - this is too high, it's a good finish, bent round the keeper into the far corner with decent pace from close range.
2nd goal (Nunez): 27% - this one was unsaveable, it's a 1% Banks-esque chance.
3rd goal (Gakpo 1): 4% - more saveable than the first two, but he does everything right and it's just a very clean finish.
4th goal (Salah): 73% - totally unsaveable
5th goal (Nunez): 74% - totally unsaveable
6th goal (Salah): 33% - chaos in front of him
7th goal (Firmino): 55% - most saveable, but he's unlucky.

It's pretty useless here, more just indicates some great finishing and some woeful defending. He has no right to save any of those goals, with only the 7th open for debate.

1st goal (Foden): 85% - no chance, top corner from about 10 yards
2nd goal (Haaland): 86% - no chance, free header from 6 yards
3rd goal (Haaland): 12% - no chance (albeit a very proactive keeper could possibly have intercepted the cross)
4th goal (Foden): 12% - no chance
5th goal (Haaland): 97% - keeper can only get lucky here, arguably he should have been positioned more centrally and it would have hit him. Again it's 1 City player getting a free shot in a box with 7 other United players.
6th goal (Foden): 21% - no chance

Again I can't really fault him.

 

[Oranges038]

But I find it interesting when multiple outlets run with a similar theme. In this case that De Gea has been saving United via saves recently.

Plenty of outlets out there running with the idea that he's actually a hindrance to the team as a whole and needs to be replaced.

People see saves and think he's doing a good job and isn't a problem, just like people looked at Ronaldo's goals and didn't think he was a problem. They were ignoring his style of play and overall suitability to the team.

The issue with DDG is his contribution to the collective unit, which outside of making to odd top class save just isn't good enough. All the stuff he just doesn't do as a keeper, or shall we we say just isn't good enough at is not good for the team.

He's basically in the same position as Ronaldo only at the other end of the pitch. Yes he's been a great player and yes he still produces in moments but he just doesn't do enough outside of that to make him worth keeping.

 

[Champ]

Plenty of outlets out there running with the idea that he's actually a hindrance to the team as a whole and needs to be replaced.

People see saves and think he's doing a good job and isn't a problem, just like people looked at Ronaldo's goals and didn't think he was a problem. They were ignoring his style of play and overall suitability to the team.

The issue with DDG is his contribution to the collective unit, which outside of making to odd top class save just isn't good enough. All the stuff he just doesn't do as a keeper, or shall we we say just isn't good enough at is not good for the team.

He's basically in the same position as Ronaldo only at the other end of the pitch. Yes he's been a great player and yes he still produces in moments but he just doesn't do enough outside of that to make him worth keeping.

I haven't seen any article on De Gea being a hindrance in the past 4/5 weeks, in fact most if not all have been the complete opposite, happy to be pointed towards one but every search I've tried comes back with overwhelming positive news regarding the Spaniard.

I am not here to debate whether we can get a better keeper than De Gea (we can), this thread was about his shot stopping and scapegoating De Gea for heavy defeats by trying to use stats. Something which isn't true.

I don't think De Gea is a poor keeper, in fact he's a brilliant keeper, just at times he is lacking, but reaction saves and shot stopping is still a huge asset to his game.

 

[Oranges038]

I haven't seen any article on De Gea being a hindrance in the past 4/5 weeks, in fact most if not all have been the complete opposite, happy to be pointed towards one but every search I've tried comes back with overwhelming positive news regarding the Spaniard.

I am not here to debate whether we can get a better keeper than De Gea (we can), this thread was about his shot stopping and scapegoating De Gea for heavy defeats by trying to use stats. Something which isn't true.

I don't think De Gea is a poor keeper, in fact he's a brilliant keeper, just at times he is lacking, but reaction saves and shot stopping is still a huge asset to his game.

I can't find any of the ones I did read right now.

I don't agree with how these stats are being used. You could take big defeats on their own for any part of the team to try and make them look bad.

 

[Champ]

I can't find any of the ones I did read right now.

I don't agree with how these stats are being used. You could take big defeats on their own for any part of the team to try and make them look bad.

For sure you're right, anyone can take near enough any stat and twist it to fit a narrative.

That's my biggest issue with this thread and how stats are used on this forum in general I guess.

 

[The Oracle]

Confirmation that you’ve been rumbled.

I think the overriding point you are trying to make is that I have been focusing more on negative aspects rather than positive ones.

So for that reason I will overlook your tagline of 'Abusive' and respond with a positive reply:
I am Manchester United through and through. I love the club.
Whenever things aren't going well I try to defend them as much as I can, and explore areas where it could be going wrong - which I am now aware to some posters can come across as being negative - especially when a number of threads are being created, when the topics of discussion can be achieved via a smaller number of threads; or part of the discussion in an already existing thread.

 

[TheReligion]

I think the overriding point you are trying to make is that I have been focusing more on negative aspects rather than positive ones.

So for that reason I will overlook your tagline of 'Abusive' and respond with a positive reply:
I am Manchester United through and through. I love the club.
Whenever things aren't going well I try to defend them as much as I can, and explore areas where it could be going wrong - which I am now aware to some posters can come across as being negative - especially when a number of threads are being created, when the topics of discussion can be achieved via a smaller number of threads; or part of the discussion in an already existing thread.

I wouldn’t look too much in to taglines. Especially when you see the state of some of them. That said I don’t think I’ve been abusive to you, simply pointed out that your posting style, and history, looks quite unusual given the lack of posting when the club is doing well and the high levels of activity when suffering poor form or results. Perhaps I was a little direct but certainly not abusive.

I’m sure you can see how that might look to others especially when the forum is littered with posters pretending to support United when they are really here to wind us all up.

There’s only so much of the same thing that can be said.

Thanks for your positive reply and self reflection.

 

[Rightnr]

@The Oracle I don’t think you’re a United fan.

You last posted on the forum in December about the World Cup. Your last post about United was in October around the time we were beaten by City.

Since Christmas United have been the form team in Europe, beating Barca, City and winning a first trophy in 6 years yet you’ve not posted once.

Then United get beaten by Liverpool Sunday and you’ve created five different threads to discuss the topic in the United forum and posted multiple times in three days.

Why do people like you bother with this kinda rubbish? No idea what you get out of it if I’m honest.

This man has the right idea. WUM thread from a WUM poster probably posting on Blue Moon and RAWK how he's winding United fans.

 

[The Oracle]

I wouldn’t look too much in to taglines. Especially when you see the state of some of them. That said I don’t think I’ve been abusive to you, simply pointed out that your posting style, and history, looks quite unusual given the lack of posting when the club is doing well and the high levels of activity when suffering poor form or results. Perhaps I was a little direct but certainly not abusive.

I’m sure you can see how that might look to others especially when the forum is littered with posters pretending to support United when they are really here to wind us all up.

There’s only so much of the same thing that can be said.

Thanks for your positive reply and self reflection.

No problem.

 

[The Oracle]

This man has the right idea. WUM thread from a WUM poster probably posting on Blue Moon and RAWK how he's winding United fans.

I think the overriding point you are trying to make is that I have been focusing more on negative aspects rather than positive ones.

So for that reason I will overlook your tagline of 'Abusive' and respond with a positive reply:
I am Manchester United through and through. I love the club.
Whenever things aren't going well I try to defend them as much as I can, and explore areas where it could be going wrong - which I am now aware to some posters can come across as being negative - especially when a number of threads are being created, when the topics of discussion can be achieved via a smaller number of threads; or part of the discussion in an already existing thread.

 

[GifLord]

Well in that case, De Gea must be the Ringmaster then, and he is not organising the 'True clowns' as he doesn't organise his defence, a facet of goalkeeping that he is deficient at.

However this thread is about the one area of goalkeeping that De Gea does excel at, and that is shot-stopping.
Whether that shot-stopping ability is anywhere near as good as it used to consistently be is up for debate; and in my opinion he no longer consistently excels at shot-stopping.

It's got nothing to do with De Gea but the players around him. The same players some of you overrate to oblivion every time they have 1 decent game.