Afghanistan

Among the history of pointless things, this war is probably highest up the ladder. 20 years of untold expenditure, soldiers coming home with all kinds of PTSD and it all falls apart within two weeks. How fecking spineless are the forces the coalition army trained over the past two decades that they couldn't even hold firm longer than that?

A lot of these guys are not being paid salaries on time, they don't have proper equipment, enough ammunition, even shortages of food.

https://observers.france24.com/en/20200218-afghanistan-corruption-rations-soldiers-army-eat

Can you really expect them to defend the govt?
 
The first part of this post is spot on, but I think you're missing the point a bit with the spineless comment. I don't think it's a matter of cowardice in people, but a corrupt and collapsing state failing to inspire any amount of loyalty.

A lot of these guys are not being paid salaries on time, they don't have proper equipment, enough ammunition, even shortages of food.

https://observers.france24.com/en/20200218-afghanistan-corruption-rations-soldiers-army-eat

Can you really expect them to defend the govt?

That sucks, I was under the impression that the US is paying their salaries but if the government is siphoning off that money, there's really no good motivation for the soldiers to fight.
 
The CBC had an interesting piece this morning that looks at the resurgence of the Taliban from an organizational point of view, suggesting that their transformation from chaos to war machine in just two years must be due to foreign support. Here is the key bit (link):
CBC said:
A little less than two years ago the Taliban was a fragmented — albeit lethal — collection of competing interests, a group at war with itself as often as it was at war with the Afghan government.

It had been beaten down by nearly two decades of war and stumbled along following the death of its infamous leader Mullah Omar.

That was then, this is now.

Today's Taliban — the juggernaut which has swept across much of northern, western and southern Afghanistan this summer — is a cohesive, well-organized insurgency that in the opinion of some experts could only have had its fractured parts bolted back together with outside help.

The breathless collapse in recent days of provincial capitals — including the southern city of Kandahar where so much Canadian blood and treasure was spilled — may have come as a shock to many Western nations.

In many ways, it does not surprise those who are steeped in the shifting politics and alliances of Afghan tribal culture.

Sean Maloney, a professor of history at the Royal Military College in Kingston, Ont., has taken to calling them "The New Taliban" — a sophisticated, vicious force with 40 per cent of its ranks filled with foreign fighters, he estimates.

Many of the Afghan troops who've encountered the Taliban 2.0 have noticed that they are not the traditional Pashtuns who filled the original militant ranks, but include many Urdu speakers among the insurgents. Urdu is a language more common to Pakistan and northern India.

"There's no way, I believe, the disparate elements inside Afghanistan worked together to create this coalition we're confronted with right now," said Maloney, who served as an expert adviser on Afghanistan to the commander of the Canadian Army. "There had to be external support for that."

Perhaps more significantly, the melting away of NATO-trained Afghan National Army units, especially in Kandahar, is likely being driven by the complex web of tribal politics and allegiances - something Western military commanders struggled to understand and appreciate through nearly two decades, said Maloney.

Some of the more important tribes who could have stood in the way of the Taliban have declared themselves neutral and that could have only been achieved through negotiation and perhaps even buying them off ahead of time.

"They had to do months of preparation to get some of that," said Maloney. "This isn't like some Nazi blitzkrieg in the same way, with tanks overrunning everything. There had to be significant preparations for this."

Pashtun tribes always back a winner — someone that looks like a winner, he said.

One tribe apparently sitting on the sidelines is the Popalzai, which counts former Afghan president Hamid Karzai among its luminaries.
So as always with Afghanistan, this may be way more complex than just 'of course the Taliban are back now the US has left'.
I thought Santayana 's quote was... "those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it". Whereas Churchill's quote went a bit further, beyond remembering to ... "those who do not learn from history..".etc; however thats being churlish, Santayana was first out of the blocks, so well done! ;)
You're right, Churchill did change it a little to make it snappier. I knew I wouldn't get away with my fake pedantry! :D
 
The CBC had an interesting piece this morning that looks at the resurgence of the Taliban from an organizational point of view, suggesting that their transformation from chaos to war machine in just two years must be due to foreign support. Here is the key bit (link):

So as always with Afghanistan, this may be way more complex than just 'of course the Taliban are back now the US has left'.

You're right, Churchill did change it a little to make it snappier. I knew I wouldn't get away with my fake pedantry! :D

Doesnt take much to side with the only enemy once your buddy left you to die.

They cant win in 20 years with the US what chances do they have without them.

Conciliation and submission is the only way. Maybe they're just tired of war and looking for something new

The US might only officially pulled out lately but the news would have broken out much sooner than the actual date
 
Doesnt take much to side with the only enemy once your buddy left you to die.

They cant win in 20 years with the US what chances do they have without them.

Conciliation and submission is the only way. Maybe they're just tired of war and looking for something new

The US might only officially pulled out lately but the news would have broken out much sooner than the actual date

The Taliban however horrible they are mostly their own people. Not invaders.
However I don't think this is the end. It's going to be a long civil war.
 
Despite everyone telling him this is what would happen with such a total and sudden withdrawal, he seems to have been caught by surprise.

Everyone seemed to know that the so called afghan government will fold like a cheap tent, except the intelligence agencies that advice potus.

More likely they decided to just not carry on fighting an unwinnable war, let nature run its course and win points back home, etc. They'll be back in some fashion no doubt if it becomes a safe harbour for the ISIS lot.
 
More likely they decided to just not carry on fighting an unwinnable war, let nature run its course and win points back home, etc. They'll be back in some fashion no doubt if it becomes a safe harbour for the ISIS lot.

I don’t entirely agree with that because if they foresaw the collapse being this swift they would have had exit plans for the staff there immediately, instead they/we are having to send troops back after extracting them to help get them out safely.
 
I don’t entirely agree with that because if they foresaw the collapse being this swift they would have had exit plans for the staff there immediately, instead they/we are having to send troops back after extracting them to help get them out safely.

Yeh likely true, the speed of this certainly seems a surprise, but then probably also a surprise to the commanders and advisors to Biden.
 
The Taliban however horrible they are mostly their own people. Not invaders.
However I don't think this is the end. It's going to be a long civil war.
Actually, from my post just above, it appears that a lot of Taliban fighters are now coming from Pakistan and maybe India. I don't know the percentage of that though, and anyway, the Taliban at its core are obviously indeed an Afghan organization that's focused on Afghanistan exclusively.
 
Yeh likely true, the speed of this certainly seems a surprise, but then probably also a surprise to the commanders and advisors to Biden.

Yeah, but I think that’s where they arguably shouldn’t be surprised. I’m not enough of an expert, but Rory Stewart was saying weeks/months ago this would be the inevitable outcome and others with experience there were agreeing so it’s certainly not the case no one could have predicted this.

Has just felt shambolic to be honest. Even if you think total withdrawal is the right policy, I think the way they’ve done it has been particularly hurried and played straight into the Taliban’s hands.

I can’t imagine how bleak things must feel if you’re a woman in Afghanistan right now, or someone who worked with us, or a grieving relative. It’s so depressing when we see things like women’s rights going backwards from this point in history. I feel very thankful that I was born in the part of the world I was where I can live freely.
 
Actually, from my post just above, it appears that a lot of Taliban fighters are now coming from Pakistan and maybe India. I don't know the percentage of that though, and anyway, the Taliban at its core are obviously indeed an Afghan organization that's focused on Afghanistan exclusively.

They've been using Pakistan as a base to wage a protracted, low-intensity insurgency for much of the past 15 or so years, with some degree of assistance from Pakistani intelligence. The plan was always to be as disruptive as possible inside Afghanistan to thwart the Government from gaining legitimacy with the public, then attempt to come back after the US inevitably left. That's what happening now.
 
They've been using Pakistan as a base to wage a protracted, low-intensity insurgency for much of the past 15 or so years, with some degree of assistance from Pakistani intelligence. The plan was always to be as disruptive as possible inside Afghanistan to thwart the Government from gaining legitimacy with the public, then attempt to come back after the US inevitably left. That's what happening now.
That's their general continuity. But clearly something has changed plre foreign support per the CBC article I quoted above.
 
That's their general continuity. But clearly something has changed plre foreign support per the CBC article I quoted above.

Not sure about the article 40% number, but there have been Pakistani and Punjabi Taliban groups such as Tehrik i Taliban Pakistan and members of the Haqqni network (a Taliban splinter group), as well as Tehrik i Taliban Punjab, who may be involved as well.
 
ISI was always involved in it from the days of The Mujahideen. That border has been uncontrollable for ever even if the Pakistanis want to control it. This current government has tilted towards India and it is obvious that ISI would be involved in this in some way. In reality the Pakistani government has not much control over the ISI and the military. That place is a mess with every Tom, Dick and Harry involved, including the Americans, Pakistanis, Indians, The British and now The Chinese. The Soviets were of course involved before.
 
taken from the tweet thread posted above by @milemuncher777 ..

this sums up the situation perfectly:

>>>The US, on the other hand, created the Afghan government, brought its warlords into the country, and funded and armed them. The Kabul ruling class is therefore ultimately beholden to its patrons and not to its constituents. Therein lies the difference between the two sides. 13/ <<<<
 
Yeah, but I think that’s where they arguably shouldn’t be surprised. I’m not enough of an expert, but Rory Stewart was saying weeks/months ago this would be the inevitable outcome and others with experience there were agreeing so it’s certainly not the case no one could have predicted this.

Has just felt shambolic to be honest. Even if you think total withdrawal is the right policy, I think the way they’ve done it has been particularly hurried and played straight into the Taliban’s hands.

I can’t imagine how bleak things must feel if you’re a woman in Afghanistan right now, or someone who worked with us, or a grieving relative. It’s so depressing when we see things like women’s rights going backwards from this point in history. I feel very thankful that I was born in the part of the world I was where I can live freely.

See vietnam. Same thing. Maybe not with the iconic last chopper from Vietnam.

And yes... it'll very ugly for the traitors, they'll probably got killed swiftly or tortured for days for Intel. Shit way to be kicked in the guts.

But i can see why it needs to be swift, and why they can't take everyone with them. War is brutal.

That's why I'm very vocal about the US playing big brother and invade countries with just dicks on their hands thinking they can fix things that are clearly unfixable. It's as if vietnam never taught them anything. And to make things more lamentable is that this whole shenagigans is only for the profit of some selected elites back home, it's not even a real cause like world war 2. I dont even know if their intel is legit. I just feel they pick the hardest to win war of all war just to prolong the whole processes and siphoning the taxpayers money
 
See vietnam. Same thing. Maybe not with the iconic last chopper from Vietnam.

And yes... it'll very ugly for the traitors, they'll probably got killed swiftly or tortured for days for Intel. Shit way to be kicked in the guts.

But i can see why it needs to be swift, and why they can't take everyone with them. War is brutal.

That's why I'm very vocal about the US playing big brother and invade countries with just dicks on their hands thinking they can fix things that are clearly unfixable. It's as if vietnam never taught them anything. And to make things more lamentable is that this whole shenagigans is only for the profit of some selected elites back home, it's not even a real cause like world war 2. I dont even know if their intel is legit. I just feel they pick the hardest to win war of all war just to prolong the whole processes and siphoning the taxpayers money

I agree with the sentiment of your post but calling them ‘traitors’ is unnecessary, and doesn’t even apply to all the groups I mentioned.
 
You have to differentiate between Pakistan government and ISI and their military. Probably the government has no control over them as they say.

That would have been true of the past. Not of Khan. He'll resign before being told what to do by someone else.
 
That would have been true of the past. Not of Khan. He'll resign before being told what to do by someone else.

Let's be honest. Imran is PM simply because the Army let him be. If he does his own thing and if he becomes a problem they will simply remove him.
 
I'm so angry and furious about this whole situation, I'd love to make a huge post about it all but I'm not sure how interested people are in the nuances. Needless to say, every western country including (and especially) fecking Israel should go feck themselves up the behinds with a rusty pole over this. It's the trash that creates terrorism in the first place, not to mention empowers nations interested in stirring hornets nests.

Surprised Mazar has fallen so quickly. I wonder what Dostum and Atta defected since their troops were the ones who were supposed to defend the city after the Afghan Army decided not to fight.

Dostum and Atta and Ismail Khan etc have had their power eroded and disintegrated by central government with the approval of the Americans. You can't be marginalized for 2 decades then expect to mobilize in a week once the clowns decide to arm you. Can you even imagine the Taliban holding fecking Kunduz for more than like a week??? Ismail Khan surrendering???

They are old men. Political pawns. The US and scum like Ghani have stopped young lions from emerging while the media fawn over the 'surprise' that these warlords survive and thrive. They don't, they subsist. Just like the NA did a bit after the transition.
 
Surprised Mazar has fallen so quickly. I wonder what Dostum and Atta defected since their troops were the ones who were supposed to defend the city after the Afghan Army decided not to fight.

That place has been a mess and will be in a mess because the Americans (at least at the top level) do not seem to understand the ground reality. And as you said the place is up to its forehead in corruption. Corruption alone is not the problem but no leadership either. The Taliban could be beaten. Just like the LTTE was beaten in Sri Lanka. All they need was good leadership at the national level and leadership of the national military. The current regime antagonized Pakistan who has a tremendous land border with them and went India's way. It is bound to get a reaction from Pakistan. The Taliban alone against the whole World is not going to survive. Give them a better country so they would not accept the Taliban.
 
I'm so angry and furious about this whole situation, I'd love to make a huge post about it all but I'm not sure how interested people are in the nuances. Needless to say, every western country including (and especially) fecking Israel should go feck themselves up the behinds with a rusty pole over this. It's the trash that creates terrorism in the first place, not to mention empowers nations interested in stirring hornets nests.



Dostum and Atta and Ismail Khan etc have had their power eroded and disintegrated by central government with the approval of the Americans. You can't be marginalized for 2 decades then expect to mobilize in a week once the clowns decide to arm you. Can you even imagine the Taliban holding fecking Kunduz for more than like a week??? Ismail Khan surrendering???

They are old men. Political pawns. The US and scum like Ghani have stopped young lions from emerging while the media fawn over the 'surprise' that these warlords survive and thrive. They don't, they subsist. Just like the NA did a bit after the transition.

I was surprised to know that Dostum is still alive? You are absolutely spot on.
 
That place has been a mess and will be in a mess because the Americans (at least at the top level) do not seem to understand the ground reality. And as you said the place is up to its forehead in corruption. Corruption alone is not the problem but no leadership either. The Taliban could be beaten. Just like the LTTE was beaten in Sri Lanka. All they need was good leadership at the national level and leadership of the national military. The current regime antagonized Pakistan who has a tremendous land border with them and went India's way. It is bound to get a reaction from Pakistan. The Taliban alone against the whole World is not going to survive. Give them a better country so they would not accept the Taliban.

Bolded is somewhat or very true. Or was in 2020. I disagree with the analysis that ' All they need was good leadership at the national level and leadership of the national military. ' though. It strongly disregards cultural and tribal affiliations and the need for some kind of autonomy from Central Government for many provinces. American strategic analysis has seemingly been based on trumps colouring book that says 'WE GET OUT, WE WIN VOTES.' Corruption was a huge problem in many regions, but not all, until central government took over.

Edit: Apologies for shortish snappy replies. The whole thing makes me so sad and angry.
 
Bolded is somewhat or very true. Or was in 2020. I disagree with the analysis that ' All they need was good leadership at the national level and leadership of the national military. ' though. It strongly disregards cultural and tribal affiliations and the need for some kind of autonomy from Central Government for many provinces. American strategic analysis has seemingly been based on trumps colouring book that says 'WE GET OUT, WE WIN VOTES.' Corruption was a huge problem in many regions, but not all, until central government took over.

Edit: Apologies for shortish snappy replies. The whole thing makes me so sad and angry.

I am actually agreeing with you on the national government. They messed it up. I am not saying it has be all controlled by Kabul. But it is the lack of leadership at National level that is very lacking. A good national leader would understand the situation as you have mentioned about the autonomy and the cultural and tribal affiliations.
 
I am actually agreeing with you on the national government. They messed it up. I am not saying it has be all controlled by Kabul. But it is the lack of leadership at National level that is very lacking. A good national leader would understand the situation as you have mentioned about the autonomy and the cultural and tribal affiliations.

I'd say its a lack of good national leaders as well as at the provincial level. There's also a persistent mistrust across ethnicities of leaders from other ethnicities. Example, many Pashtuns didn't like Abdullah Abdullah because of his affiliation with Mas'oud, despite the fact that Abdullah is technically half Pashtun. Likewise Tajiks didn't care much for Pashtun leaders, to where ultimately, ethnic and tribal interests frequently took precedence over national interests. Its nearly impossible to run a successful country under such circumstances.
 
Let's be honest. Imran is PM simply because the Army let him be. If he does his own thing and if he becomes a problem they will simply remove him.

Not a chance. He's there because he won an election. He had the support of the masses. Visit Pakistan sometime and ask the people on the street.

The army is a convenient bogeyman. In reality in Pakistan the military, judiciary, politicians, journalists, fuedal Lords, media moguls and business tycoons are all cut from the same cloth. They are all from an elite social circle. They're like the brown version of the British Raj.

Imran Khan is a glitch in the matrix. Maybe he'll be our Neo.
 
Fighting reported in Kabul. I expect Kabul to fall as soon as the Westerners are out. Maybe even sooner.
 
Not a chance. He's there because he won an election. He had the support of the masses. Visit Pakistan sometime and ask the people on the street.

The army is a convenient bogeyman. In reality in Pakistan the military, judiciary, politicians, journalists, fuedal Lords, media moguls and business tycoons are all cut from the same cloth. They are all from an elite social circle. They're like the brown version of the British Raj.

Imran Khan is a glitch in the matrix. Maybe he'll be our Neo.

I have many times. In fact I was there two days after the coup of Musharraf too. I do agree that he is not corrupt like previous PMs. But if he creates any trouble for the army they will remove him.
 


Tweets like that are so deceitful. If you want to be critical of his handling then it's the fact he seemingly underestimated badly the Taliban's capability and now with them running rampant he has to send in more troops to evacuate his own countrymen and also as many Afghan refugees as possible. Many who would be slaughtered if left to fend for themselves. That tweet deliberately excludes that information or any actual link to create a false narrative.
 
There is a very good article by Lt. Col. Daniel L Davis. He wrote it around 2010 and it is going exactly as he wrote then. He has written a new one yesterday too.
 
I am actually agreeing with you on the national government. They messed it up. I am not saying it has be all controlled by Kabul. But it is the lack of leadership at National level that is very lacking. A good national leader would understand the situation as you have mentioned about the autonomy and the cultural and tribal affiliations.

Definitely agree with you there. While Karzai was 'okay' for a time, it's important to note that he was essentially the bitch of warlords like Khan who (as well as far more conservative than he was pre 2001) was essentially running a fiefdom and brutalizing his own citizens and political activists whilst enacting 'taliban like' policies and scaring the shit out of everybody. So the central government (or the USA, or both) decided to decimate these fiefdoms without either trying to properly discern between them or attempting to usurp warlords with more progressive regional 'leaders.' Because without a viable alternative, public support will always maintain high for such people.

I also don't like the article above much; it basically argues that Afghans are intrinsically corrupt and barbarian and that 'the Afghan security forces would never be up to the task.' That is, utter bullshit. Literal verifiable utter bullshit. The guy is probably a right wing Minimalist who doesn't approve of 'nation building' or 'risking american lives for others. He was an aide to Kay Bailey Hutchinson, a senator at the time and Trumps pick for Ambassador to NATO. (Yes, the Ambassador to the organisation they wanted to dismantle.) He wrote this nice 86 page rant in 2012 or so: https://info.publicintelligence.net/USArmy-Dereliction-of-Duty-II.pdf (Not saying that none of it has value, but overall it's terrible. He spends pages literally recanting personal experiences about how shit the Afghans are at war.) I mean, fecks sake he doesn't even mention the ISI or the lack of control from Washington over them. Nor any other external influences.
 
Tweets like that are so deceitful. If you want to be critical of his handling then it's the fact he seemingly underestimated badly the Taliban's capability and now with them running rampant he has to send in more troops to evacuate his own countrymen and also as many Afghan refugees as possible. Many who would be slaughtered if left to fend for themselves. That tweet deliberately excludes that information or any actual link to create a false narrative.
If Biden or anyone cared enough about Afghans and their plight we would be have been granting them asylum years ago. Instead of this pathetic performative gesture of ‘saving refugees’ at the final hour.