Aaron Wan-Bissaka | The Ornacle speaks: It is done.

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bond19821982 said:
Can people stop pretending that they know how transfer works because you have signed players in fifa and FM ?

Feck - this moaning is way too much. Criticise Ed for not getting things done. But when it comes to financial things, let him do as per the books. Not all the clubs pay everything upfront.

Atleast be happy, things are moving in the background.
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Its a good point. But we do need to hurry up if we want to get the majority of our business done before pre-season begins.
 
Celoti23-81 said:
Another reason Ole doesn't have a clue what he is doing! Yeah, lets go for young hungry British players that will cost 50% more than the equivalent abroad!
If Dan James was foreign, the price would have been closer to 7 million
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We had success with that in the past though so maybe it's worth the premium? Proof will be in the pudding tough.

Either way, it makes negotiating a shit load harder.
 
Celoti23-81 said:
Another reason Ole doesn't have a clue what he is doing! Yeah, lets go for young hungry British players that will cost 50% more than the equivalent abroad!
If Dan James was foreign, the price would have been closer to 7 million
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Ole does not have much influence over how much the club pays for a player.
 
Celoti23-81 said:
Another reason Ole doesn't have a clue what he is doing! Yeah, lets go for young hungry British players that will cost 50% more than the equivalent abroad!
If Dan James was foreign, the price would have been closer to 7 million
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This guy thinks Ole is involved with valuing and negotiating transfers...
 
Fox outside the box said:
Is it maybe our lack of experience with this sort of thing that makes it seem like a pointless gap, when in actual fact there are things going on that we're unaware of?

I get really dubious about critisicing things like this because I've never been involved in the process. There's a good chance my ignorance makes it seem like someone is incompetent.

I know from personal experience how lengthy minor processes can be to get put through at work. Someone puts a proposal for something fairly basic forward but it gets rejected for may number of reasons. They don't just quickly scribble out any amendments and return the same day. The changes to the proposal take time, you usually have to re-evaluate the risks and financial implications, get sign off from other places yet again because the new proposal will be different etc. It can take a while.

I don't imagine Ed is sat there, picks up the phone, speaks to Palace, makes an offer, puts the phone down once its rejected, then has a think and calls back half hour later and bangs another 10 million on. I assume there is some form of process for an offer being drafted baring in mind things like agent, commercial and marketing implications etc. All of this potentially needs reviewing, amending in places etc, particularly if you're dealing with conditional add ons. Once the original offer is rejected, it probabaly needs reconsidering and going back through legal, finance, whoever to be re-drafted, signed off on any increases or changes and then proposed again.

I've seen fans saying things like this for years, from all different clubs and I'd lean towards our ignorance than so many clubs and ceos simply being useless. I could be totally wrong, if anyone has a decent level of experience in anything even remotely close to this type of negotiation, I'd be interested to hear their thoughts. People talk about this sort of thing like it's Fifa style negotiating and Monopoly money is used.
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I have no experience of negotiating transfers but the fact that the whole process can take place in a day (final day of the window) shows us that it can't be as complicated as you suggest.

Also when Ed is making these phone calls, he should know beforehand the maximum amount he is willing to spend on a player. I wouldn't expect him to have to ask the glazers permission for every single bid he makes but I am only presuming. Maybe it's a negotiation tactic, to wait ten days to make the next bid, seems risky to me. Makes sense to get the player in before other clubs make bids and to help your manager have his squad ready as soon as possible. Especially when this has been a complaint of the last three managers.
 
Just when you thought Ed couldn't be a bigger cnut, offer 45m plus 5m add ons, no wonder palace rejected it.
 
Is there any documentaries or articles on the transfer process? Seems like the process itself is a secret... can't imagine Woody sitting there on MSN messenger nudging members of the board at Palace while snorting grounded noodles of our next sponsor.
 
Neil_Buchanan said:
I have no experience of negotiating transfers but the fact that the whole process can take place in a day (final day of the window) shows us that it can't be as complicated as you suggest.

Also when Ed is making these phone calls, he should know beforehand the maximum amount he is willing to spend on a player. I wouldn't expect him to have to ask the glazers permission for every single bid he makes but I am only presuming. Maybe it's a negotiation tactic, to wait ten days to make the next bid, seems risky to me. Makes sense to get the player in before other clubs make bids and to help your manager have his squad ready as soon as possible. Especially when this has been a complaint of the last three managers.
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Then every club in the world is incompetent.
 
45 million plus 20 million in add ons would be fair with the stipulations for the add ons being sensible ones so that if we do pay the full 65 million at least it will turn out to be money well spent with like 5 million for 10 caps for England, 5 million for champions league qualification etc..
 
Verminator said:
We paid £30m for Shaw 5 decking years ago, and we are trying to low-ball Palace for a better fullback.
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How dare he negotiate! If he doesn't overspend, then how can we blame him for overspending. Like it.
 
ivaldo said:
This guy thinks Ole is involved with valuing and negotiating transfers...
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Who's change of transfer strategy is it this window? If I'm not mistaken, it's Ole's and Phelan's! Not that it was a good strategy anyway! Woodward will pull the plug on Wan-Bissaka now, and I wouldn't blame him one bit.
 
He’s not worth £50m. The offer rejected was a good offer.

People in here saying to just pay him will be the same ones shouting at the kid on the last day of the season when we finish 6th.

We’re being taxed badly simply for being UTD. Relax. The only way we’re not getting him is if someone comes in with £50m + in cash.
 
If crystal palace want 50m up front then we should pay the fee. He's the best option available and a right side with Daniel James and Wan-Bissaka would go a long way to solving our inept right hand side.
 
Celoti23-81 said:
Who's change of transfer strategy is it this window? If I'm not mistaken, it's Ole's and Phelan's! Not that it was a good strategy anyway! Woodward will pull the plug on Wan-Bissaka now, and I wouldn't blame him one bit.
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You're right! Why would he move away from the wildly successful transfer strategy of recent years. More Sanchez' and Di Maria's please.
 
Verminator said:
If we can believe what we have heard, we started at 35, them at 70.
They've moved, and we are pissing about.

I've barely posted about this, but if you want to take the high horse, crack on. It makes you look so cool.
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Or reasonable. They've come down £20mil by your accounts. But yeah, why bother negotiating...
 
Most people on here have the patience of a 4 year old child, some even act like a 4 year old child.

It's fun to read though. The press seem to have no idea who were after and post loads story's and "according to our sources" crap for clicks* according to the papers we are in for about 20+ players, preparing a bid, player wrapped up in 1,2,3,4 days, next week, after the internationals and after their holidays.

Interesting times ahead.
*copyright cos I like it.
 
Kapardin said:
If that's the case then why do clubs like Real finish transfers without fuss?.
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They don't. They've wanted Hazard for several windows now and other deals didn't just happen. Do you not recognize that because you don't pay as much attention to other clubs it seems that way?
 
ivaldo said:
Erm, yes, it is. That's my point? What part are you struggling with?
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Your idea of negotiating is repeatedly making the same offer?
They don't have to sell, or need to, unless they are happy with the offer.

As I said above, we paid £30m for Shaw five years ago. Do people not think inflation for the best in position, in the league, should go up more than £5m in five years?
Was Shaw even that in 2015?
 
Verminator said:
Your idea of negotiating is repeatedly making the same offer?
They don't have to sell, or need to, unless they are happy with the offer.

As I said above, we paid £30m for Shaw five years ago. Do people not think inflation for the best in position, in the league, should go up more than £5m in five years?
Was Shaw even that in 2015?
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Feel free to show me any report that suggests that, or where I've said that. Take your time.


He was literally voted the best left back in the league, something AWB was not, but by all means, continue to reimagine history.
 
Verminator said:
Your idea of negotiating is repeatedly making the same offer?
They don't have to sell, or need to, unless they are happy with the offer.

As I said above, we paid £30m for Shaw five years ago. Do people not think inflation for the best in position, in the league, should go up more than £5m in five years?
Was Shaw even that in 2015?
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There was a lot of interest in Shaw, at the very least Chelsea were very seriously interested. Shaw was the world’s most expensive teenager in the world at the point was he not?

As far as I can see, there’s no other club that is going to pay top money for AWB - hence we can afford to wait. Contrary to popular belief, Utd don’t have a bottomless pot of money - and clearly there are other areas that also need addressing as well.

There is no straight-line formula for calculating a transfer fee.
 
Kapardin said:
If that's the case then why do clubs like Real finish transfers without fuss? Look at the number of players they have signed in a window that is similar to the sort of transition we should have conducted since 2013. The only clubs remaining inactive are those like Liverpool and City who have somewhat settled squads already, or cheapskates like Spurs and Arsenal. And us.

And its' not like Woodward actually has a good track record that we can give the benefit of the doubt. Let's not sugarcoat things, he is clearly incompetent.
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Which transfers are those? Every club has some deals that are concluded quicker than others and there are a lot of factors to that being the case. They also have their fair share of failed pursuits or drawn out transfer sagas but unless you're a Madrid fan and putting the time and attention into their dealings that you do ours, then it's going to seem more out of the blue. Hazard wasn't wrapped up without fuss, they've been pushing at that for ages (years?). Haven't they been after Jovic for months as well? They've wrapped up a fair amount of business this Summer, sure, but they have had poor windows previously and there's nothing to suggest they've fixed their problems. Jovic could end up a flop, Hazard struggles, Mendy ends up being bang average and suddenly everyone uses hindsight to change the narrative from 'Madrid show how a rebuild should be done' to 'Perez hasn't got a clue, he's just gone around and signed up a bunch of divas without planning properly' - seen this line much? Or something fairly similar? I have and I've seen it from Liverpool fans, Arsenal fans, Madrid, United etc. At least something similar. Go and see on how many other forums people are complaining that their club's board is incompetent. We've pretty much stolen the 'we need a football man' line from Arsenal fans. They've been saying it for years and I'm pretty sure it started gaining popularity after a pundit had said it.

You're choosing to ignore every time it goes badly for them. I assume it's because you aren't emotionally invested in them. My frustrations when I was younger and thought about things less were fairly similar. They have had a Summer similar to ours in LVG's first year. When we signed Rojo, Herrera, Di Maria etc. In hindsight, it didn't really work out for us, just as it may not for them. They haven't concluded all these without fuss either but they are throwing money at it. We could have wrapped up AWB by now but whether it was 2 weeks ago or in 2 weeks, it doesn't really matter. Of course for you it does, you're sat refreshing internet pages every 5 minutes. We all are. But for the people within the club, they are doing the fairly sensible thing of negotiating. Also, the fact we are totally in the dark about the process makes it more frustrating for us than it likely is for them.

Regarding Woodward, sure, he seemingly has his faults, I'd happily debate his successes and failings but I really get the impression that you wouldn't be interested in that.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
There was a lot of interest in Shaw, at the very least Chelsea were very seriously interested. Shaw was the world’s most expensive teenager in the world at the point was he not?

As far as I can see, there’s no other club that is going to pay top money for AWB - hence we can afford to wait. Contrary to popular belief, Utd don’t have a bottomless pot of money - and clearly there are other areas that also need addressing as well.

There is no straight-line formula for calculating a transfer fee.
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Only flaw in that logic is that Palace don't need the money and don't particularly want to sell so the lack of other suitors is irrelevant. If we are not going to make some effort to meet their asking price we won't get anywhere by trying to wait them out, they simply keep a player they see as a prize asset and we will left with Ashley Young.

I don't think we should be held to ransom on these deals but the fact is that so far as has been reported AWB was identified by the manager as the solution to the RB problem long before the end of the season. It doesn't say much for the future of Ole and his relationship with Ed if such a cornerstone signing does not get done in his first window. People are saying why can't we get our business done like Real and so far as this deal is concerned they have a point.

In the current market, coming off the season he has just had the asking price is steep but not unrealistic. We need to be willing to meet it or at least seriously negotiate and not dick around for months with lowball offers. Now I don't know if we have made those offers or not and if we can get this over the line before pre-season begins on July 1st then its job done, I am not demanding an immediate signing. I do just hope that Ed is not simply waiting. Internally we should know if we are going to eventually meet their demands if that is what it takes and if not then we should be on to other targets by this point.
 
ivaldo said:
Feel free to show me any report that suggests that, or where I've said that. Take your time.


He was literally voted the best left back in the league, something AWB was not, but by all means, continue to reimagine history.
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You were the condescending twat, when I suggested we were low-balling Palace.
Having just joined the conversation about negotiations, you insinuated that I was losing composure about it, and that I don't understand the concept of negotiating.

If you have issue with increasing an offer during negotiations, which your disagreement with me infers, then it is in your own posts. You find it.

While you're at it, tell me where I have "re-imagined history". I'll wait.
 
If we don't want to pay for him we should look at atal from Nice.
I have watched him for years now and he has improved every year since he was 17.
 
Neil_Buchanan said:
I have no experience of negotiating transfers but the fact that the whole process can take place in a day (final day of the window) shows us that it can't be as complicated as you suggest.

Also when Ed is making these phone calls, he should know beforehand the maximum amount he is willing to spend on a player. I wouldn't expect him to have to ask the glazers permission for every single bid he makes but I am only presuming. Maybe it's a negotiation tactic, to wait ten days to make the next bid, seems risky to me. Makes sense to get the player in before other clubs make bids and to help your manager have his squad ready as soon as possible. Especially when this has been a complaint of the last three managers.
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I suppose that's the difference between us - I haven't suggested it is anything. I don't claim to know. What I am doing though is opening my mind up to the fact that I don't really have a clue and I'm just throwing some things out there to suggest why it could be. I'm not arrogantly asserting that I know what I'm talking about. Have you ever played Devil's advocate on a position you hold? If something really frustrates me, I try to look at it from the complete opposite point of view and see if I'm missing something or there's something I need to go and look into.

I'm not saying things can't be done quickly. I agree that if we threw £50 million in cash at Palace then they would probably have accepted this now and he likely would have signed. We haven't done that though, we submitted a bid and we're in the position of now negotiating around that. I don't imagine he would go to the Glazers for permission, I also never suggested he would, that would be ridiculous. But these sorts of things don't just follow a literal chain of command. I have no idea what you do for a living but have you worked in a position where you need to get budgets or anything signed off? In my experience, that sort of process can involve getting sign off from a different department and someone who may be lower in the overall chain to you but are still a required signature.

A CEO isn't just some dictator who does what he wants, when he wants. There will be other people involved that would need to be engaged from a finance, risk, marketing, legal side etc.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
There was a lot of interest in Shaw, at the very least Chelsea were very seriously interested. Shaw was the world’s most expensive teenager in the world at the point was he not?

As far as I can see, there’s no other club that is going to pay top money for AWB - hence we can afford to wait. Contrary to popular belief, Utd don’t have a bottomless pot of money - and clearly there are other areas that also need addressing as well.

There is no straight-line formula for calculating a transfer fee.
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I don't remember if Shaw was the most expensive teenager, at the time. It's possible.
However, competition for a player is only part of what determines a players value.
If it isn't sufficiently worthwhile, the selling club is within their rights to say no.

I personally think Palace will have set a minimum price, and we need to increase to get there. £50m if reports are to be believed, and my opinion is, that is probably fair, considering what they will lose from the team.

Maybe we have others irons in the fire, that means it isn't necessarily AWB or bust.
 
ivaldo said:
You're right! Why would he move away from the wildly successful transfer strategy of recent years. More Sanchez' and Di Maria's please.
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Di Maria was actually one of Real's best players in their champions league win the season before! Playing in centre mid! Sanchez, wasn't a bad signing at the time was it! Hindsight and all that!
Veron and Berbatov didn't actually set the world alight either did they! Yet, yes let's sign British players for extortionate prices because they are hungry! And let sell our best players like Pogba and end up having a worse team on paper than Leicester! And a worse manager to boot.
Do you realise signing Wan Bissaka and Daniel James is also a risk that could massively backfire. When we signed rio Ferdinand, he had had 4 great seasons before joining us, not one!
Any signing we make will look bad if we don't sort the problem right wing position we have had since selling Ronaldo!
Name me at least 2 or 3 great English players we signed from premier league teams under Sir Alex?
 
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