Aaron Wan-Bissaka | The Ornacle speaks: It is done.

[Adnan]

I'm not sure if it was quite as revolutionary back then tbh. For example, Mourinho then came in and played Gallas at LB. So having a flat defensive back 4 was still a viable strategy.

This is not the case now. Post Dani Alves at Barcelona we've seen the likes of Carvajal, Marcelo, Trent, Robertson, Kimmich, Jordi Alba, Alaba, Sergi Roberto being permanent fixtures in the best teams in the world. It's quite an obvious step change in my opinion.

Having a flat back 4 in those days was a viable strategy of course. The difference was, that Wenger wanted his fullbacks to play like wingers and get involved in attack as much as possible. So his coaching in that respect went against the norm as far as traditional fullbacks go.

 

[UpWithRivers]

Ironically if we get Wan and Harry we would be best suited to a deep defensive/counter attack style. Ala Mourinho. He would have loved these two players and in fact asked for Harry but instead the board refused to sanction buying Harry then sacked Mourinho, then brought in Ole who buys him. At the same time the same could be said about Pogba - if he leaves because he is a bad influence then why didnt they back Pogba over Mourinho?
Just saying....

 

[Rendezvous with Ronaldo]

Waited 5 years to make the post and it was a good one. Irwin really was a complete footballer.

I repsectfully disagree. Irwin was not a particularly offensive fullback at all. He wasn't often seen around the penalty area, he never crossed from anyway near the byline like the Liverpool full backs - any crossing he did do was from deep. Finally, when he was up the pitch he would cut into the penalty area - he was there to provide a goalscoring threat, not to assist. If he were playing today he would have to prove more from an attacking standpoint.

 

[Allas8]

Amazing. He is so explosive and so well balanced!

Already a better dribbler than Rashford.

Saying stuff like that makes me not take AWB very seriously.

Also AWB looks clumsy on the ball, like he is about to fall, but through excellent balance he is able to stay on his feet, tricking the defenders. Atleast from the clips I seen on here.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I'm not sure if it was quite as revolutionary back then tbh. For example, Mourinho then came in and played Gallas at LB. So having a flat defensive back 4 was still a viable strategy.

This is not the case now. Post Dani Alves at Barcelona we've seen the likes of Carvajal, Marcelo, Trent, Robertson, Kimmich, Jordi Alba, Alaba, Sergi Roberto being permanent fixtures in the best teams in the world. It's quite an obvious step change in my opinion.

That's mainly due to the increase of "inside forwards" and them needing to provide the width.

We could quite happily switch back to the wide winger right, fullback supporting and over/underlapping like Rafael and Valencia used to do very well.

 

[roonster09]

I repsectfully disagree. Irwin was not a particularly offensive fullback at all. He wasn't often seen around the penalty area, he never crossed from anyway near the byline like the Liverpool full backs - any crossing he did do was from deep. Finally, when he was up the pitch he would cut into the penalty area - he was there to provide a goalscoring threat, not to assist. If he were playing today he would have to prove more from an attacking standpoint.

So you disagree because he crossed from deep than byline and also when he was in final third he went for cut backs rather than crossing?

 

[Adnan]

So you disagree because he crossed from deep than byline and also when he was in final third he went for cut backs rather than crossing?

Irwin was a steady eddy who you could depend on. But he wasn't great going forward as far as attacking the opposing defender. Wasn't bad though, just not great in that aspect.

 

[Skills]

That's mainly due to the increase of "inside forwards" and them needing to provide the width.

We could quite happily switch back to the wide winger right, fullback supporting and over/underlapping like Rafael and Valencia used to do very well.

And that's mainly for the reason that the top managers in the world, have managed to reach the conclusion that they're better off having their most technically gifted and dangerous attackers much closer to the goal than stuck out wide. And that it's more efficient having your full backs produce the width that you need.

For some reason it's working, and we're seeing a record number of goals and attacking teams dominate.

 

[SiRed]

This is basically 35 pages of people saying the same thing. So on the subject of final balls, lets take a moment to remember our £8m man Bebe and his final ball.

 

[redzer]

Irwin was a steady eddy who you could depend on. But he wasn't great going forward as far as attacking the opposing defender. Wasn't bad though, just not great in that aspect.

You must be joking? Cantona said his favourite goal was not one he scored but one he assisted in that Irwin came up the wing, passed to Cantona, continued on with an overlapping run in behind the defence, Cantona chipped the defence and Irwin smashed it home.

 

[acnumber9]

And that's mainly for the reason that the top managers in the world, have managed to reach the conclusion that they're better off having their most technically gifted and dangerous attackers much closer to the goal than stuck out wide. And that it's more efficient having your full backs produce the width that you need.

For some reason it's working, and we're seeing a record number of goals and attacking teams dominate.

I’m sure that has nothing to do with the fact that top clubs can stockpile the best players more than they ever could before.

 

[golden_blunder]

I repsectfully disagree. Irwin was not a particularly offensive fullback at all. He wasn't often seen around the penalty area, he never crossed from anyway near the byline like the Liverpool full backs - any crossing he did do was from deep. Finally, when he was up the pitch he would cut into the penalty area - he was there to provide a goalscoring threat, not to assist. If he were playing today he would have to prove more from an attacking standpoint.

Don’t agree at all. Irwin was one of the best overlapping fbs around. Just because he was surrounded by the best wingers around (on both flanks) you think he didn’t overlap but he did. He just also happened to be good at ‘give and go’ bursts into the box

 

[Skills]

I’m sure that has nothing to do with the fact that top clubs can stockpile the best players more than they ever could before.

Are Liverpool one of those clubs? Is that why they obliterated Barcelona in the CL semi final this season? Or Man City in the QF last season?

Their ability to stockpile talent compared to the likes of Barcelona and Man City.

 

[acnumber9]

Are Liverpool one of those clubs? Is that why they obliterated Barcelona in the CL semi final this season? Or Man City in the QF last season?

Their ability to stockpile talent compared to the likes of Barcelona and Man City.

I’m sure the £200m plus they spent last year didn’t improve them as a team at all. Of course, the fact Barcelona couldn’t defend didn’t help. Liverpool scored more goals the season before. It was tightening up at the back that improved their form.

 

[Adam-Utd]

And that's mainly for the reason that the top managers in the world, have managed to reach the conclusion that they're better off having their most technically gifted and dangerous attackers much closer to the goal than stuck out wide. And that it's more efficient having your full backs produce the width that you need.

For some reason it's working, and we're seeing a record number of goals and attacking teams dominate.

Of course, but there isn't much difference between having 3 forwards in the box from LW/CF/RW or say LW/STRIKER/CAM and keeping the RW out wide to receive the ball and feed the box. There is many different ways to skin a cat as they say.

 

[Skills]

Of course, but there isn't much difference between having 3 forwards in the box from LW/CF/RW or say LW/STRIKER/CAM and keeping the RW out wide to receive the ball and feed the box. There is many different ways to skin a cat as they say.

I agree (and Man City and Guardiola do this with Sane). But I can't think of a RW equivalent to Leroy Sane in football at the moment and especially one who's available for us. The ones who come inside seem to be a lot more abundant.

 

[reelworld]

Don’t agree at all. Irwin was one of the best overlapping fbs around. Just because he was surrounded by the best wingers around (on both flanks) you think he didn’t overlap but he did. He just also happened to be good at ‘give and go’ bursts into the box

Yeah, I don't know where that comes from. Irwin was really good offensively. He may not dribble much, but he timed his runs perfectly and can put in decent crosses with both feet

 

[SirAF]

Don’t agree at all. Irwin was one of the best overlapping fbs around. Just because he was surrounded by the best wingers around (on both flanks) you think he didn’t overlap but he did. He just also happened to be good at ‘give and go’ bursts into the box

There was a move against Juventus in the 99 SF that is a perfect example of just this.

 

[Adnan]

You must be joking? Cantona said his favourite goal was not one he scored but one he assisted in that Irwin came up the wing, passed to Cantona, continued on with an overlapping run in behind the defence, Cantona chipped the defence and Irwin smashed it home.

It was a FA Cup game if I'm not mistaken when we wore the green and gold kit?

Still doesn't mean he was a attacking fullback. He was a steady eddy that you could depend on. He scored 18 goals and got 25 assists in his United career. Compare that to players like Trent and Robertson who look like they'll easily smash Irwins goal contributions. But that's due to the fullbacks in the modern game being coached to attack, much more than defend.

 

[golden_blunder]

Are Liverpool one of those clubs? Is that why they obliterated Barcelona in the CL semi final this season? Or Man City in the QF last season?

Their ability to stockpile talent compared to the likes of Barcelona and Man City.

Wait, you think man city don’t stockpile?

 

[Celoti23-81]

I agree (and Man City and Guardiola do this with Sane). But I can't think of a RW equivalent to Leroy Sane in football at the moment and especially one who's available for us. The ones who come inside seem to be a lot more abundant.

Wilf Zaha is one, but I think he lacks discipline to stay there!

 

[Skills]

Wait, you think man city don’t stockpile?

I was talking about Liverpool.

 

[Adnan]

I was talking about Liverpool.

You said compared to Man City, who also stock pile players.

 

[Skills]

You said compared to Man City, who also stock pile players.

I was asking if it was Liverpool's ability to stockpile talent, that made the difference when they destroyed Man City and Barcelona in the CL (2 clubs who actually do stockpile talent).

 

[Adnan]

I was asking if it was Liverpool's ability to stockpile talent, that made the difference when they destroyed Man City and Barcelona in the CL (2 clubs who actually do stockpile talent).

I see..

 

[caleb2003]

There was a difference between what was expected of a fullback in those days playing in a flat back 4 in comparison to what Wenger did when he arrived in 1996. The Telegraph article I posted in this thread earlier touches upon that with quotes from high profile scouts/Dof to back those claims and explain the difference. As a result, Wenger's Arsenal played the best football in the league according to most neutrals at the time.

Pfft..The London press were in no way Neutral, Arsenal were made out as being much better than they were (and they were good). Fergie used overloading attacking fullbacks who played more like wingbacks of today rarely on the inside channel but average position over the half way line towards last 3rd. Neville and Beckham swapped positions constantly for instance in attack.

 

[golden_blunder]

It was a FA Cup game if I'm not mistaken when we wore the green and gold kit?

Still doesn't mean he was a attacking fullback. He was a steady eddy that you could depend on. He scored 18 goals and got 25 assists in his United career. Compare that to players like Trent and Robertson who look like they'll easily smash Irwins goal contributions. But that's due to the fullbacks in the modern game being coached to attack, much more than defend.

Theres a huge difference in the way the teams played. This Liverpool team plays with their width coming from their fullbacks.

United played with 2 wingers, sharpe and kanchelskis then giggs. Irwin didn’t have to do the same amount of attacking but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t capable of it.

“Steady Eddie” was one of the best fullbacks in world football. Defensive ability, quick, good passer, good crosser, score goals, cracking free kick AND amazing consistency

 

[Skills]

Theres a huge difference in the way the teams played. This Liverpool team plays with their width coming from their fullbacks.

United played with 2 wingers, sharpe and kanchelskis then giggs. Irwin didn’t have to do the same amount of attacking but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t capable of it.

“Steady Eddie” was one of the best fullbacks in world football. Defensive ability, quick, good passer, good crosser, score goals, cracking free kick AND amazing consistency

And there's no evidence that he was capable of it. I don't see what's wrong with saying that.

Is it offensive to say that Ryan Giggs was never as good a goal scorer as Mohammad Salah? Giggs also never had to carry his teams goal scoring burden, scored a fair few goals but I wouldn't bet that he could put up Salah's numbers over the last couple of seasons.

 

[Real Madras]

You what?

You said you’d imagine you’d see a lot more from AWB when he arrives and I quite simply stated - if he arrives as it’s Woodward who’s in charge of getting players over the line. Basically me saying I have no belief in Ed that he can deliver.

 

[golden_blunder]

And there's no evidence that he was capable of it. I don't see what's wrong with saying that.

Is it offensive to say that Ryan Giggs was never as good a goal scorer as Mohammad Salah? Giggs also never had to carry his teams goal scoring burden, scored a fair few goals but I wouldn't bet that he could put up Salah's numbers over the last couple of seasons.

Oh jog on. I suggest you spend your time getting out old United dvds from the late 90s - the noughties,

 

[Cassidy]

And there's no evidence that he was capable of it. I don't see what's wrong with saying that.

Is it offensive to say that Ryan Giggs was never as good a goal scorer as Mohammad Salah? Giggs also never had to carry his teams goal scoring burden, scored a fair few goals but I wouldn't bet that he could put up Salah's numbers over the last couple of seasons.

Not true

 

[Adnan]

Theres a huge difference in the way the teams played. This Liverpool team plays with their width coming from their fullbacks.

United played with 2 wingers, sharpe and kanchelskis then giggs. Irwin didn’t have to do the same amount of attacking but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t capable of it.

“Steady Eddie” was one of the best fullbacks in world football. Defensive ability, quick, good passer, good crosser, score goals, cracking free kick AND amazing consistency

He was a good fullback but I think you're over rating him slightly. I saw Liverpool's McManaman give him a torrid time on plenty of occasions and he just quite frankly couldn't deal with him. He was a very good fullback in a English league that wasn't even close to being the best in Europe at the time. I think you'll find the best fullbacks of the era played in Italy at the time which was a true test of a defender/fullbacks ability. Des Walker who was lauded in England as potentially one of the best in the world was exposed at Sampdoria.

 

[The Nani]

I’ve watched the AWB videos posted a few times now and still can’t see what’s so impressive. Not exactly skillful.

I mean, it’s just a few moments picked out from the course of over a year. And they seem random rather than deliberate or just totally pedestrian although he definitely has a great burst of acceleration on him.

 

[dwd]

So are we getting him or Irwin?

 

[Adam-Utd]

I’ve watched the AWB videos posted a few times now and still can’t see what’s so impressive. Not exactly skillful.

I mean, it’s just a few moments picked out from the course of over a year. And they seem random rather than deliberate or just totally pedestrian although he definitely has a great burst of acceleration on him.

What's impressive is practically no attacker gets passed him? We aren't signing him to be Cafu.

 

[roonster09]

So are we getting him or Irwin?

AWB for RB, Irwin for LB. Sorted.

 

[duffer]

He was a good fullback but I think you're over rating him slightly. I saw Liverpool's McManaman give him a torrid time on plenty of occasions and he just quite frankly couldn't deal with him. He was a very good fullback in a English league that wasn't even close to being the best in Europe at the time. I think you'll find the best fullbacks of the era played in Italy at the time which was a true test of a defender/fullbacks ability. Des Walker who was lauded in England as potentially one of the best in the world was exposed at Sampdoria.

Des Walker was a centre back.

 

[Adnan]

Des Walker was a centre back.

I know..

 

[cyberman]

Irwin was fantastic for feck sake. 7 league titles, a few double doubles and a CL title to his name.
Fantastic defensively and going forward, A right footer at left back who could play a cross and be fluid on transitions.
Why do United fans play down everything to do with Utd?

 

[devilish]

United's defence is in shambles, our CBs aren't clearly good enough, DDG might leave and Matic will be 1 year older next year. Adding a fullback whose pacey and great in defending is a non brainer unless of course we're bringing in Koulibaly, Oblak and Ndidi at one go. I also think that the criticism surrounding his attacking side is a bit OTT as well. First of all he played with Palace whose a defensive side. Secondly he had 3 assists this year which is more then the likes of Walker, at par with Trippier and Rose and 1 less then Luke Shaw. All these players are older then AWB and play in better teams