Aaron Wan-Bissaka | The Ornacle speaks: It is done.

Status
Not open for further replies.
GDaly95 said:
Top 5 most dispossessed Premier League players 2018/2019:

1. Zaha - 141 times
2. Salah - 119 times
3. Mitrovic - 97 times
4. Josh King - 96 times
5. Richarlison - 90 times

Scored the same amount of Premier League goals as Rashford but played 669 more minutes. Rashford with 1 more assist.

Martial matched him for goals in 1,417 less Premier League minutes.

Not trying to derail the thread, but Zaha is a fraud for me.

Also, I reckon there's no chance Palace sell Zaha and AWB in the same window.
Click to expand...

Tbf the fact Salah's up there just means that attacking need to take chances, and will inevitably give away the ball.

I don't think any of those players would thrive here. We have a really impatient home crowd and they hate players who give away the ball. Pogba gets a lot of shit, so did someone like Nani despit being quite productive.
 
Looks fast and energetic, with good potential... but how is his decision making? or will he be another headless chicken?
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
Just get it done, its a position that needed reinforcing since Neville retired and other than a season each for Rafael and Valencia, we've never had consistency there. Guardiola set the price for fullbacks when he started paying 50M for Walker, Mendy etc. AWB stays fit, consistent and has more positives than shortcomings plus the necessary attitude to work on them.
Click to expand...

Barcelona got semendo for like 30 m, have no clue how much cancelo costed but pretty sure not that much.

City full backs can attack and provide great crosses as well. This is just taken for cleaners.
 
Allas8 said:
If that actually was true, I would say sign him up!
I don't like sharing our players.
Click to expand...

Im greedy with our players too

GDaly95 said:
Top 5 most dispossessed Premier League players 2018/2019:

1. Zaha - 141 times
2. Salah - 119 times
3. Mitrovic - 97 times
4. Josh King - 96 times
5. Richarlison - 90 times

Scored the same amount of Premier League goals as Rashford but played 669 more minutes. Rashford with 1 more assist.

Martial matched him for goals in 1,417 less Premier League minutes.

Not trying to derail the thread, but Zaha is a fraud for me.

Also, I reckon there's no chance Palace sell Zaha and AWB in the same window.
Click to expand...

You're wrongly interpreting those stats to fit an agenda. Attackers are always going to be the most dispossessed players, particularly those who attempt more dribbles. They can afford to and its expected unlike other positions like CMs and CBs. If those players don't take chances with the ball they'll never be as productive as they are, and if they were dispossessed much less then defenses would be rendered redundant. Those players would be contributing to way more goals than we're seeing and scores like 3-0 would probably be more common than 1-0. Neymar was the most dispossessed player across the top five leagues in 2017/18 and at the 2018 world cup. Messi was one of the most dispossessed players in La Liga in 2017/18 as well and he was dispossessed 17 times alone against Liverpool in their CL loss.

Zaha was the second best dribbler in the premier league behind Hazard, and he was the 6th best dribbler in Europe and furthermore he was the second most fouled player in the league after Hazard. Richarlison was the fourth most fouled player. You're also comparing his stats to players in a better team without further context, like how much more productive he was than any other player on his own team, a club that finished 12th and only scored 51 goals. 10 goals and 5 assists is an impressive return which represents a 29.4% contribution towards their PL goals, he was their talisman and Milivojevic wasn't far behind. Richarlison, King and Zaha were some of the most impressive forwards outside the top 6
 
Skills said:
Tbf the fact Salah's up there just means that attacking need to take chances, and will inevitably give away the ball.
Click to expand...

Yeah that excuse works when his production is anywhere near Salah's orbit. Zaha is a buyer's remorse waiting to happen and he'll probably end up with Newcastle if they get bought out or Everton.
 
Patrick08 said:
Barcelona got semendo for like 30 m, have no clue how much cancelo costed but pretty sure not that much.

City full backs can attack and provide great crosses as well. This is just taken for cleaners.
Click to expand...
Every single FB they have signed we have scoffed at and now neither Walker or Mendy are first choice.
There was no value there for them.
Walker cant cross a ball to save his life
 
Patrick08 said:
Barcelona got semendo for like 30 m, have no clue how much cancelo costed but pretty sure not that much.

City full backs can attack and provide great crosses as well. This is just taken for cleaners.
Click to expand...

Playing for Barcelona and City is an entirely different proposition from playing for United. For instance, neither of those sides lose the ball cheaply and then have to defend counters, defenders at United do.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
Playing for Barcelona and City is an entirely different proposition from playing for United. For instance, neither of those sides lose the ball cheaply and then have to defend counters, defenders at United do.
Click to expand...

So prepare to play without the ball rather than improve with the ball and improve efficiency in final third?
 
Ekeke said:
There are and he didnt give it away most

53512c79484aa7441fffec054cb33e03.png


You can also factor in pass success %

Thats where he clearly comes undone

c8dfee4bb7a3f3727d701f09228fd7bb.png
Click to expand...

I suspect that some of his first touches were so bad, they have been logged by the statisticians as failed passes.
 
cyberman said:
Every single FB they have signed we have scoffed at and now neither Walker or Mendy are first choice.
There was no value there for them.
Walker cant cross a ball to save his life
Click to expand...

We didn't scoff at them, we had different priorities and limited budgets. We should rather take someone like Thomas from psg and wait on wan bissaka until he runs his contract down to single year and then sign a even more proved full back than just a 21 year old on the back of one good season for a world record price for a full back, use the money more wisely in other areas.
 
Patrick08 said:
So prepare to play without the ball rather than improve with the ball and improve efficiency in final third?
Click to expand...

Sure, if Ole can coach a midfield of Pogba, Matic, McTominay and Fred into not losing the ball or replacing them all with better technical players at once, he can go and buy a player like Trippier for 25M and have him overload the flanks, until then he needs a defensively sound fullback who has recovery pace and physical strength to snuff out danger.
 
Loublaze said:
Im greedy with our players too



You're wrongly interpreting those stats to fit an agenda. Attackers are always going to be the most dispossessed players, particularly those who attempt more dribbles. They can afford to and its expected unlike other positions like CMs and CBs. If those players don't take chances with the ball they'll never be as productive as they are, and if they were dispossessed much less then defenses would be rendered redundant. Those players would be contributing to way more goals than we're seeing and scores like 3-0 would probably be more common than 1-0. Neymar was the most dispossessed player across the top five leagues in 2017/18 and at the 2018 world cup. Messi was one of the most dispossessed players in La Liga in 2017/18 as well and he was dispossessed 17 times alone against Liverpool in their CL loss.

Zaha was the second best dribbler in the premier league behind Hazard, and he was the 6th best dribbler in Europe and furthermore he was the second most fouled player in the league after Hazard. Richarlison was the fourth most fouled player. You're also comparing his stats to players in a better team without further context, like how much more productive he was than any other player on his own team, a club that finished 12th and only scored 51 goals. 10 goals and 5 assists is an impressive return which represents a 29.4% contribution towards their PL goals, he was their talisman and Milivojevic wasn't far behind. Richarlison, King and Zaha were some of the most impressive forwards outside the top 6
Click to expand...
I don't have an agenda, and I'm interpreting the stats just fine. I also understand that attackers give it away most often, I assume its a given that everyone knows that. Was I comparing to him to a player in a different position?

Getting dispossessed is absolutely forgivable - but when you're going to be giving the ball away as often as he does (its staggering), then you need the output to do it justice. His output does not do it justice. It just doesn't. Why are you even bringing Neymar and Messi up? Even relatively speaking, even given the fact that Zaha is in a far inferior team, his output isn't doing the wastefulness justice. Neymar and Messi have the output.

If he was the second best dribbler, I'll assume he had the second most successful amount of dribbles, and if so.. he mustn't have been doing very much at the end of those dribbles? Maybe decision making is yet another issue of his.

For the price he'd cost, he'd be a very unworthy risk.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
Sure, if Ole can coach a midfield of Pogba, Matic, McTominay and Fred into not losing the ball or replacing them all with better technical players at once, he can go and buy a player like Trippier for 25M and have him overload the flanks, until then he needs a defensively sound fullback who has recovery pace and physical strength to snuff out danger.
Click to expand...

That's the area money is most required at the moment, the midfield, not wasting major chunk of it on a defensive full back. If we can use that additional 50 m euros in landing another cdm and luring rabiot here for free with someone like Bruno too coming in that is wise use of money than blowing it on a 21 year old on the back of one season in an overly defensive team.

If you just want recovery pace and physical strength just use TFM on right flank, why spend 60 m on slightly better version of him?
 
Patrick08 said:
That's the area money is most required at the moment, the midfield, not wasting major chunk of it on a defensive full back. If we can use that additional 50 m euros in landing another cdm and luring rabiot here for free with someone like Bruno too coming in that is wise use of money than blowing it on a 21 year old on the back of one season in an overly defensive team.

If you just want recovery pace and physical strength just use TFM on right flank, why spend 60 m on slightly better version of him?
Click to expand...

TFM couldn't hold down a place on a Fulham team that got relegated. Stop equating him to Wan Bissaka. Wan Bissaka is young enough to still improve in attack while playing on a better team.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
TFM couldn't hold down a place on a Fulham team that got relegated. Stop equating him to Wan Bissaka. Wan Bissaka is young enough to still improve in attack while playing on a better team.
Click to expand...

AWB was the one that ousted TFM from the Palace side!!
 
Call me old fashioned, but I prefer my defenders to be able to defend. AWB can defend. With likes of Rashford and Martial in the box, does it really matter if his crossing isn't amazing? It's not like those 2 are prolific in the air.
 
Patrick08 said:
That's the area money is most required at the moment, the midfield, not wasting major chunk of it on a defensive full back. If we can use that additional 50 m euros in landing another cdm and luring rabiot here for free with someone like Bruno too coming in that is wise use of money than blowing it on a 21 year old on the back of one season in an overly defensive team.

If you just want recovery pace and physical strength just use TFM on right flank, why spend 60 m on slightly better version of him?
Click to expand...

It's obvious you haven't watched AWB play.
 
Why we want someone not good enough for PSG at age 27 I have no idea.

It's not because this guy was world class for club brugge to the point that everyone was fighting over him is it?

The lad is the same player as Dalot at twice the age.
 
redshaw said:
The right back will see a lot of the ball going forward, he'll have to be good at putting in crosses or diagonal balls. We've been greatly missing this so if this lad is no better than Young at delivering then I don't see the point in spending so much.
Click to expand...
Admittedly, I don't pay much attention to Crystal Palace, but the lack of any crosses or attacking from the wing in his highlight videos is concerning. Looks like another Antonio Valencia in his prime, great defender, but not going to provide much going forward.
 
Aloysius's Back 3 said:
Why we want someone not good enough for PSG at age 27 I have no idea.

It's not because this guy was world class for club brugge to the point that everyone was fighting over him is it?

The lad is the same player as Dalot at twice the age.
Click to expand...

Rather be an attacking team and add better midfielders and improve efficiency in final third than add a mega priced defensive full back on back of a single season in top tier football and prepare to be poor on the ball and off the ball in midfield.

Right back is a problem, but thats not an area we conceded maximum goals from, we do it because of zero protection to centrebacks from the midfield and poor holding and possession earning qualities in the midfield.

He is 21 with a 3 year contract. Even if he plays for next 2 years and runs his contract down while proving himself to be consistent all those years then it's worth a punt in a better bargaining position, also by then there could be other options too in the market.

I'd rather have a team who keeps the ball and attack maximum time with better efficiency in final third with better service to our strikers than be short in the midfeild in terms of control and prepare ourselves to on the defensive, or find it difficult to break down opponents defense in a parked bus with not so efficient deliveries in the box.
 
Last edited:
Aloysius's Back 3 said:
Why we want someone not good enough for PSG at age 27 I have no idea.

It's not because this guy was world class for club brugge to the point that everyone was fighting over him is it?

The lad is the same player as Dalot at twice the age.
Click to expand...
It seems that Juventus want to sell Cancelo, Barca to sell Semedo, Bayern is not going to buy James, City could sell Sane, etc. That doesn't mean they are bad players.

There are quality players who can improve our team without spending too much like Alderweireld, Meunier, Rabiot, etc. Meunier could rotate with Dalot and even Laird in the near future. There are better players, but unfortunately, there are overpriced... and we need to invest in 5 or 6 positions.
 
GDaly95 said:
I don't have an agenda, and I'm interpreting the stats just fine. I also understand that attackers give it away most often, I assume its a given that everyone knows that. Was I comparing to him to a player in a different position?

Getting dispossessed is absolutely forgivable - but when you're going to be giving the ball away as often as he does (its staggering), then you need the output to do it justice. His output does not do it justice. It just doesn't. Why are you even bringing Neymar and Messi up? Even relatively speaking, even given the fact that Zaha is in a far inferior team, his output isn't doing the wastefulness justice. Neymar and Messi have the output.

If he was the second best dribbler, I'll assume he had the second most successful amount of dribbles, and if so.. he mustn't have been doing very much at the end of those dribbles? Maybe decision making is yet another issue of his.

For the price he'd cost, he'd be a very unworthy risk.
Click to expand...

You're not comparing him to any one else but I was for context. As for the part in bold, you're again coming to a flawed conclusion without proper context. Zaha again plays for Crystal Palace who finished 12th. Compare his teammates to Hazard's teammates, a team that finished third. Zaha and Milovojevic are Crystal Palace's only real threats in attack. Townsend is bang average and Benteke can't even get a game and this is why Batshuayi was loaned in to help bear the burden.

10 goals and 5 assists in a team that can hardly score, second most fouled in the PL and 6th best dribbler in Europe negates his 'wastefulness'. We look at the world through different lens or live in completely different worlds. You should watch Zaha more closely next season.
 
Last edited:
Getting AWB would help us get a first choice defense that looks fairly decent. With shaw, lindelof, smaling and AWB we should at least have a solid foundation from where to build.

From an attacking standpoint we would still have dalot as back up and we've seen that he can make a significant difference from RB when used effectively. Not to mention that young too can have an attacking impact from LB provided he is used sparingly.
 
Patrick08 said:
That's the area money is most required at the moment, the midfield, not wasting major chunk of it on a defensive full back. If we can use that additional 50 m euros in landing another cdm and luring rabiot here for free with someone like Bruno too coming in that is wise use of money than blowing it on a 21 year old on the back of one season in an overly defensive team.

If you just want recovery pace and physical strength just use TFM on right flank, why spend 60 m on slightly better version of him?
Click to expand...

AWB is more than “slightly better” than TFM
 
If we're willing to give AWB time to develop offensively, why not do the same for Dalot defensively? Is this just based on how bad we were defensively this past season? If Ole is really look to play fast pace, attacking football, wouldn't a better attacking RB like Dalot or meunier make more sense? AWB may be a defensive upgrade but is that a big enough upgrade to make up for his lack of attacking contribution that we would be adding to an already impotent right side?
 
reddevil702 said:
If we're willing to give AWB time to develop offensively, why not do the same for Dalot defensively? Is this just based on how bad we were defensively this past season? If Ole is really look to play fast pace, attacking football, wouldn't a better attacking RB like Dalot or meunier make more sense? AWB may be a defensive upgrade but is that a big enough upgrade to make up for his lack of attacking contribution that we would be adding to an already impotent right side?
Click to expand...

I think we are willing to give Dalot time but the problem is that right now he is not good enough offensively or defensively so we cannot just go with him next year. Not a criticism of Dalot at all by the way, just the reality that he should not be our starting RB for some time yet and in fact may end up proving a better option as a right sided midfield player when he matures.

AWB is something of an unknown as an attacking entity, his ball skills seem fine and he was a winger in his youth so he might surprise us there. The system he played in last season means we really don't have very much to go on and that is where hopefully our scouts have done their homework and believe he will be just fine offensively. Ultimately though, our defence was atrocious last season and so I cannot be disappointed that we are looking at a RB who is ultra solid in that department.
 
reddevil702 said:
If we're willing to give AWB time to develop offensively, why not do the same for Dalot defensively? Is this just based on how bad we were defensively this past season? If Ole is really look to play fast pace, attacking football, wouldn't a better attacking RB like Dalot or meunier make more sense? AWB may be a defensive upgrade but is that a big enough upgrade to make up for his lack of attacking contribution that we would be adding to an already impotent right side?
Click to expand...

Yes, yes, yes and no.

Spot on. Signing a young LB (Tierney) to compete with Shaw makes sense. We should be signing a more experienced player on the right and one that can bloody well attack.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.