Aaron Wan-Bissaka - a statistical anomaly?
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It’s all well and good, but title-winning teams don’t have a player with those numbers and they're currently significantly better than us. So, we don’t need it. Not even in the squad, really. If we did, then we’d see a similar profile elsewhere, but we don’t.
All of this ‘well, let’s keep him as a squad option for difficult wingers’ basically undermines what Ten Hag ultimately wants to do here.
And I don’t mind Wan-Bissaka, by the way. He just isn’t a serious option if we are to become one of the world’s best teams again.
All of this ‘well, let’s keep him as a squad option for difficult wingers’ basically undermines what Ten Hag ultimately wants to do here.
And I don’t mind Wan-Bissaka, by the way. He just isn’t a serious option if we are to become one of the world’s best teams again.
He tackles so often because it's his most effective way of regaining possession. You don't ask Vinicius or Mbappe why they sprint away from defenders when they can dribble instead. They are extremely quick players so they use their skills to their advantage.
It's not like most of his tackles are last ditch tackles, and even if they were, they're not necessarily his fault. He just happened to be the fastest to track back, because, let's be real, our defenders for the last few years aren't exactly known for their speed.
I'm not saying he doesn't sometimes struggle with positioning, but the idea that he tackles because his positioning is bad is absurd.
But Kyle Walker, Sergio Roberto, TAA, Carjaval or Pavard are?
I see now. Basically those players on the list aren't fullbacks. Pretty sure there are fullbacks that make similar amount of tackles. They actually ordered it based on percentage of successful tackles, thought it's based on attempts.
The way you put it out like it's a factIt's a laughable and nonsense quote, because you need context. How does it make sense that every tackle is based on a previous mistake? Elaborate.
So many top games for us yet people act like he has only produced in his last game for us. I genuinley believe he would be higher rated if he wasnt english - dalot being portugese had about 4 months of poor form but still remain peoples favourite at near 70% in the awb vs dalot thread. Same fanbase that wanted to dump rashford & shaw whilst crying out not to sign kane
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Totally agree
Awb deserves praise for his uptick in form but he’s still too limited on the ball. I’ve always found his dribbling to be pretty good in a harmless sort of way, but his passing, delivery, creativity etc are all way, way below the level needed for a top team.
Even someone like Ben White at Arsenal who appears unspectacular links up with Saka in a way that I cannot imagine Awb too. Barring the odd moment his ability on the ball mostly serves to be adequate and not feck up rather than excel.
Even someone like Ben White at Arsenal who appears unspectacular links up with Saka in a way that I cannot imagine Awb too. Barring the odd moment his ability on the ball mostly serves to be adequate and not feck up rather than excel.
It has the last months. Was also great against Barca.
Makes you wonder if he can be tried out at CB - maybe in cups or if there’s not much at stake in the league. Would be nice to see if he can cover for CB so we dont have to waste money there and maybe even upgrade RB instead.
AWB became too identified as a tackler that he keeps learning how to tackle even more to solidify his identity.
It's the same with Ozil. He was identified as the assists king so instead of doing a proper shooting, Ozil became only interested in assisting so he became really poor at shooting at the later part of his career.
Players need to break out of their paradigm and play their own games and not be affected by what the media said about them.
It's the same with Ozil. He was identified as the assists king so instead of doing a proper shooting, Ozil became only interested in assisting so he became really poor at shooting at the later part of his career.
Players need to break out of their paradigm and play their own games and not be affected by what the media said about them.
To be fair, no one can compare to arguably the greatest and most versatile defender of all time.
Honestly, this is complete baloney. Quality player but I think he was talking crap here.
Funnily enough, BT recently showed replays of AC Milan CL games and Maldini was making tackles of all sorts.
Are what?
Serious options for the best teams in the world, seeing as they play right back for the respective teams, or at least did recently.
I remember AWB giving away a penalty diving in and at the time it was the height of Spider Wan etc. Im convined he dived in stupudly because of the hype.
Well, yes, they have been. Obviously. Carvajal has been an ever-present at one of the game’s most successful ever sides for a decade. Trent was phenomenal in a team that won the league and Champions League. Walker has been a mainstay in a relentlessly successful Guardiola side.
What exactly are you getting at?
Whether they are good enough now, or in form, doesn’t really matter. They were and are the right type of profile for a team that aims to be at the top. Wan-Bissaka is not, which is why Ten Hag does not and will not see him as his first choice right back.
I vote keep developing AWB attacking game and have him be our right back for the next 3/4 years. He and Antony together is potentially a terrific right hand side… we have already seen several glimpses.
The reason AWB emerged as a defender in the first place was that he completely shut up Zaha in training when he was tested in the role (he was a winger/striker at that point, an attacker who had pretty much zero defensive awareness as such, he was just quick and oddly adept at tackling).
He's not a run-of-the-mill player in terms of his development.
Anyway, the reason he managed to neutralize Zaha was not that he was a brilliant defender (in terms of awareness, positioning and whatnot), but simply that he had the speed to shadow his man as - pretty much - a man marker...and, again, his tackling ability (which remains something of an anomaly, something innate or whatever one wants to call it).
This, in itself, is a potentially very useful quality: as a tactical option to have, it's brilliant.
It's clearly not enough to make him a default starter for a team with high ambitions at the highest level, though: as it stands, he isn't consistently good enough either offensively or defensively for that.
But if he can - say - establish himself as a reliably decent 2nd choice RB, then his extreme qualities (or rather quality, singular: it's the tackling) could be very useful in certain scenarios (where you want to neutralize or significantly reduce the impact of an opposition winger/wide player).
As for him versus Dalot, short-term: like I said in the other thread, keep 'em both for now.
He's not a run-of-the-mill player in terms of his development.
Anyway, the reason he managed to neutralize Zaha was not that he was a brilliant defender (in terms of awareness, positioning and whatnot), but simply that he had the speed to shadow his man as - pretty much - a man marker...and, again, his tackling ability (which remains something of an anomaly, something innate or whatever one wants to call it).
This, in itself, is a potentially very useful quality: as a tactical option to have, it's brilliant.
It's clearly not enough to make him a default starter for a team with high ambitions at the highest level, though: as it stands, he isn't consistently good enough either offensively or defensively for that.
But if he can - say - establish himself as a reliably decent 2nd choice RB, then his extreme qualities (or rather quality, singular: it's the tackling) could be very useful in certain scenarios (where you want to neutralize or significantly reduce the impact of an opposition winger/wide player).
As for him versus Dalot, short-term: like I said in the other thread, keep 'em both for now.
honestly im confused by awb. Eye test shows he looks much better out there and seems like he does well. But stat wise is he producing anything going forward? feel like selling dalot and bringing in a RB is best option and continuing with his development.
That is exactly my point. You consider these players serious options because of what they have won, but it really goes to show that you don't need to be a world class player to be in one of the best teams in the world. Do you think Real Madrid wouldn't have been as successful if AWB played instead of Carvajal or City wouldn't have won the league if they replaced Walker with AWB?
They aren't necessarily the right profile for a team that aims to be at the top, which is why these clubs often have looked to replace some of them.
In his current form, what exactly is it that makes you think AWB isn't the right profile for us as a top team, whether as a starter or a back-up? What do you think he lacks right now, and which profile would you like to see for our RB?
The first two seasons at United, he had 4 assists each season in the Premier League. His second Premier League season for us also included two goals. Since then, it has gone downhill but he hasn't really played a lot of games this season. I think it's fair to say that he'd have more assists if we actually had a striker because I've seen him cross beautifully and I know he has it in him. Come to think of it, I don't actually remember the last time I saw a cross by him but it's probably just my mind playing tricks
But I agree, I think he needs to keep developing and work on his offensive game.edit: (33) Think Wan-Bissaka Can't Cross? Watch This - YouTube
Can't say it's a glorious compilation but he should've had more assists with proper finishing.
Both Madrid and City would have been worse with Wan-Bissaka than they would have with Carvajal and Walker, yes. Would his presence have stopped them from winning trophies? I don’t know; it’s hard to say. But he isn’t the profile they’d want, and that’s primarily due to his limitations when it comes to progressing the ball into the next phase of the pitch.
Madrid would have coped with that more easily I suspect, but Wan-Bissaka would have been out on his arse within weeks under Guardiola.
He isn’t good enough in possession ultimately. His passing is limited, his crossing is limited, and we need more output going forward.
You two obviously have no idea what I am talking about. Read my post again, his success rate isn't even the point. The point is the high number of missplaced tackles, that is well over 100(and not percentage wise), and no one comes close to that number.
He's made 122 unsuccessful(?) tackles in total, which means he was left on his arse while opposition continued to build the attack 122 times. In comparision with other players from that list, it's about 5-6 times more. The most unsuccessful tackles from that list was around 20-30 times, he is on 122!
That's usually how it works. What exactly is the point? That he shouldn't tackle as much?
You make it sound like he was put on his ass 122 times which gave the opposition chances, but that's not how it works. He could've lost the tackle itself, but completely nullified the attack, which is what he frequently does.
It's just an odd comment. If you look up unsuccessful dribbles, it's very likely you'll find Vinicius Junior or Mbappé on top and Daniel James is bottom. Are you worried about the first two failing their dribbles that resulted in loss of possession?
Comparing attacking and defensive stats pretty much proves that you don't quite grasp the logic behind defensive stats.
Mistakes in defence get punished far more than they are in attack, attack is completely different stuff when it comes to probabilities than defence.
I wasn't comparing them. I was saying the way you talk about his unsuccessful tackles are equally as irrelevant and is the reason several posters have called you out on it.
First of, you don't know where his unsuccessful tackles happened on the pitch, and even then, he has the highest success rate despite having around 400 tackles more. What even is your point? You're just saying he has a lot more unsuccessful tackles than everyone else on that list, but what is your point?
Yeah agreed. He's vastly improved and I really be adverse to keeping him now.
Not sure you are getting it. Keeping up a higher success-rate percentage at a higher number is far more difficult. This is what separates the best players from the others: they can consistently keep up the high success rate with higher attempts. These stats just show that Wan Bissaka is the best tackler in Europe at this time. He maintains a higher percentage success with far higher attempts; it just means he is world class at it.
Those other players will likely slip back a lot in success rate when their numbers increase.
Just for comparison, one of the best right backs over the years has been Kyle Walker. These are his tackling stats and percentages - 1036 tackles attempted with a 76.7% success rate. That means he was left on his arse (as you put it) 241 times.
Lets put Hakimi, also - 634 tackles attempted and a 65% success rate. That means he was unsuccessful 218 times.
Fullbacks in the nineties didn't need to attack as much as modern day fullbacks. It's almost impossible these days not to get caught up the pitch sometimes.
As good as Maldini was, I don't think he'd get into any modern team at leftback. His position right now would be DM or CB, so his take on the necessity of tackling misplaced.
No, you are not getting it. Best defenders in the history of game haven't gone around tackling people all over the pitch and getting caught out of position when they fail, that's not what defending is about. Especially modern defenders who don't even tackle a lot.
In the second part of your post you have proved that he is around Kyle Walker statistically(success rate) when it comes to tackling, which pretty much proves my point since Kyle Walker was never greatest player defensively. And how many games is that taken from? In comparision with Wan Bissaka?
Kyle Walker has been one of the best right backs defensively in Europe over the last decade. If that guy isn't a barometer for top-end defending then nobody will be. I also provided Hakimi who has a 65% tackle success, who is considered one of the best right backs in Europe.
The amount of games is pretty irrelevant to this point. What it is showing is that when Wan Bissaka needs to make a tackle, he succeeds more than any other player in Europe. There is no downside to this.
The other mistake you are making is that, in your mind, unsuccessful tackle = being beaten. That is incorrect. An unsuccessful tackle can come from a pressure forcing a player to play backwards or sideways; it does not mean they were beaten. That is why you have the dribbled past stat.
he’s 25 so he’ll most likely be a good option for many years if Ten Hag can utilise him right
Again you miss that he has the best percentage and make up that every unsuccessful tackle means sitting on the floor.
I don’t think it’s as simple as that. AWB has a unique tackle, something that comes natural to him. A few years ago he was a winger at palace. They put him to fullback in training (probably because he tackled back so well) and that’s where he has been since. I don’t think there’s many like him.
second point, taking city as an example they don’t even play any fullbacks this season after loaning away cancelo who was one of the best in the league
it’s all apples and pears, you can’t compare in that way
You’re taking too much from that Maldini quote. He was exceptional at everything including where to position himself. He wasn’t always like that though, we watched Italian football on C4 religiously as kids and I remember a young Maldini used to tackle a lot as a fullback.
also bringing it closer to home, Vidic used to tackle anything that moved, Heinze too. Players are different from each other otherwise football would be boring. We can’t lump them all in to one did or did not category
This always gets repeated but its actually a very silly point. Full backs have to tackle. Lahm was one of the most technically gifted full backs of all time and he loved a slide tackle. You're up against players faster than you, a tackle is one of the best ways to negate the speed advantage.
What's funny is for the people that always bring up this quote, Maldini was one of the best tacklers ever and he tackled often, both him and Nesta.
Any skill in which you are the best in the league or world at has value to a team.