Aaron Wan-Bissaka - a statistical anomaly?

He makes some great tackles, but his success rate isn't much of an anomally though, and considering the number of attempts it means that his unsuccesful number of tackles(not rate/percentage, but number) is ridiculously high then?

For example, he made 122 unsuccessful(?) tackles in total, which means he was left on his arse while opposition continued to build the attack 122 times. In comparision with other players from that list, it's about 5-6 times more.

I am really not sure that's entirely positive stat.
 
He's the ultimate specialist 1 on 1 defender. Is that enough for Ten Hag who wants a lot more from his fullbacks offensively, that is the question. I do think it would be a mistake to sell him though.
 
Amar__ said:
He makes some great tackles, but his success rate isn't much of an anomally though, and considering the number of attempts it means that his unsuccesful number of tackles(not rate/percentage, but number) is ridiculously high then?

For example, he made 122 unsuccessful(?) tackles in total, which means he was left on his arse while opposition continued to build the attack 122 times. In comparision with other players from that list, it's about 5-6 times more.

I am really not sure that's entirely positive stat.
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Am I missing something here? When your success rate is 78% with that amount of tackles, it is an anomaly. The success rate tends to go down the more often you try.
 
BerryBerryShrew said:
It goes to show how stupid oppo tactics and plans are more than anything. AWB is positionally suspect so if you are a winger, clever off the ball runs and movement is how to get the better of him. You need to get in behind AWB to be effective.

Taking him on by getting ball to feet and running at him is clearly idiotic, yet still they try.
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We have a genius in wing play coaching amongst us. Who is the best player you have worked with?
 
BerryBerryShrew said:
It goes to show how stupid oppo tactics and plans are more than anything. AWB is positionally suspect so if you are a winger, clever off the ball runs and movement is how to get the better of him. You need to get in behind AWB to be effective.

Taking him on by getting ball to feet and running at him is clearly idiotic, yet still they try.
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What positions does he get wrong on a reg basis?
 
A lot of big clubs have their most dangerous players on the left flank. When you have AWB who can shut them down, it completely changes the dynamic of the game.
It’s the same thing when Rashford is shut down by the opponent, our attack just doesn’t have the same bite.
 
AWB is unquestionably a brilliant tackler. I can't actually think of anyone better than him in that regard.

At the same time, it's not a coincidence that the two teams who have made the least tackles in the league this season are City and Arsenal. A high success rate when making huge volumes of tackles isn't a skill top sides prioritise in their players, for good reason.
 
reddevilz007 said:
A lot of big clubs have their most dangerous players on the left flank. When you have AWB who can shut them down, it completely changes the dynamic of the game.
It’s the same thing when Rashford is shut down by the opponent, our attack just doesn’t have the same bite.
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Exactly , he shut down mitoma to a few fleeting moments in the game , this really starved Brighton of quality in the final third.
We simply can't sell a player like this , especially with the recent improvements he's been showing.
 
zaafi said:
Am I missing something here? When your success rate is 78% with that amount of tackles, it is an anomaly. The success rate tends to go down the more often you try.
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Whether something is or isn't an anomally isn't exactly my point. It's the question if that stat or anomally is actually good stat?
 
I think he's becoming clearly better than Dalot, and I'd be really disappointed to see him go in the summer.
 
sullydnl said:
AWB is unquestionably a brilliant tackler. I can't actually think of anyone better than him in that regard.

At the same time, it's not a coincidence that the two teams who have made the least tackles in the league this season are City and Arsenal. A high success rate when making huge volumes of tackles isn't a skill top sides prioritise in their players, for good reason.
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I dunno about that. The best teams don’t need to make many tackles because they dominate possession so need to win the ball back less frequently then other teams. They still need to make some tackles though. In which case having players in their team who are excellent at making tackles can only be a good thing. Obviously helps if the players who are good at tackles are also good at other things but that’s true of all players. The more well rounded they are the better.
 
Nick7 said:
He’s improved a lot in the last few months on his all round game. I’ve always been a fan of him over Dalot, frustrated at times, but overall a fan. I think he got a bit fecked under Ole to be quite honest. It seems like he just wasn’t coached on the attacking side of the game at all until this season, hence the big improvement, still not great but an improvement. I feel at this point it may be too late to coach him into being a great attacking player. I’d like us to keep him but also wouldn’t be miffed if we sold him in the summer.
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Agreed. If we have financial strength, I'd like to keep him. If AWB can improve his attacking phase, he'll be the best RB in the world. It's a gamble i don't know if we should take it or not.
 
BerryBerryShrew said:
A step out of sync with our offside line fairly frequently.
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People say shite like this but I'd love to know a single fullback that isn't "out of position" somewhat often. It's the nature of constantly marauding up and down the pitch, you aren't always going to be lockstep in line with your CB's unless you're purely told to sit deep as almost a third CB. People for years said Trent was the best right back in the world and he's essentially never "in position".

AWB does lose his man at times on the back post and he's pretty terrible in the air which hurts at times, but this repeating of the cliche that "he only makes tackles because he's never in position" or "good defenders don't have to tackle" is so idiotic it makes my head hurt. Bottom line is there isn't another fullback in the world you'd want if facing a team with a top dribbling LW. That no doubt has value especially when we are a side that can't dominate possession currently. As we transition into a team that dominates the ball then sure he's not nearly as useful.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I dunno about that. The best teams don’t need to make many tackles because they dominate possession so need to win the ball back less frequently then other teams. They still need to make some tackles though. In which case having players in their team who are excellent at making tackles can only be a good thing. Obviously helps if the players who are good at tackles are also good at other things but that’s true of all players. The more well rounded they are the better.
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Of course, being a good tackler is always a good thing in a defender.

But if we imagine a pie chart made up of all the different things a fullback has to do to add value to a side, tackling is a much smaller part of the pie chart for defenders at top clubs. Because on a very fundamental level they make tackles less and do other things more. So it makes no sense for top sides to look for fullbacks with that skill as their primary strength.

And in the case of the OP AWB is getting credit for the actual volume of tackles he's maintaining that success rate through. Which is great for his tackling ability, but point blank not something he should even have the opportunity to do if ETH gets us looking like a top side.
 
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Pogue Mahone said:
I dunno about that. The best teams don’t need to make many tackles because they dominate possession so need to win the ball back less frequently then other teams. They still need to make some tackles though. In which case having players in their team who are excellent at making tackles can only be a good thing. Obviously helps if the players who are good at tackles are also good at other things but that’s true of all players. The more well rounded they are the better.
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Would it also be fair to infer that City and Arsenal likely attempt a lot of tackles but don't win them because they prefer to foul opponents when breaking up counter attacks rather than winning the ball?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I dunno about that. The best teams don’t need to make many tackles because they dominate possession so need to win the ball back less frequently then other teams. They still need to make some tackles though. In which case having players in their team who are excellent at making tackles can only be a good thing. Obviously helps if the players who are good at tackles are also good at other things but that’s true of all players. The more well rounded they are the better.
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Saliba is in the top 5 for making tackles. So is araujo and barca aren't exactly wasteful with possession. So im not sure that tracks. Presumably you want to make tackles and win the ball back high up the pitch and early. Giving away a foul isn't necessarily a bad thing?
I'm not sure that old Alonso quote about if you have to make a tackle you've screwed up applies anymore. The high press seems to contradict it
 
caid said:
Saliba is in the top 5 for making tackles. So is araujo and barca aren't exactly wasteful with possession. So im not sure that tracks. Presumably you want to make tackles and win the ball back high up the pitch and early. Giving away a foul isn't necessarily a bad thing?
I'm not sure that old Alonso quote about if you have to make a tackle you've screwed up applies anymore. The high press seems to contradict it
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I was at the Barca-Atletico on Sunday. He was the player that impressed me most. Absolute beast.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
People say shite like this but I'd love to know a single fullback that isn't "out of position" somewhat often. It's the nature of constantly marauding up and down the pitch, you aren't always going to be lockstep in line with your CB's unless you're purely told to sit deep as almost a third CB. People for years said Trent was the best right back in the world and he's essentially never "in position".

AWB does lose his man at times on the back post and he's pretty terrible in the air which hurts at times, but this repeating of the cliche that "he only makes tackles because he's never in position" or "good defenders don't have to tackle" is so idiotic it makes my head hurt. Bottom line is there isn't another fullback in the world you'd want if facing a team with a top dribbling LW. That no doubt has value especially when we are a side that can't dominate possession currently. As we transition into a team that dominates the ball then sure he's not nearly as useful.
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I couldn't agree more.

For instance, Lindelof almost never tackles, but he positions himself very well and slows down the opponent so that the rest of the team have a chance of running back to assist him. This makes him a "passive" defender and he often gets slaughtered for it and the posters want to see him tackle more and be more aggressive, but it seems when AWB does it, it's because his positioning is terrible :wenger:
He wins a clear majority of his tackles and often wins possession after them as well, so do people honestly want him to stop that? Maybe it would be better if he kept backing up until the opponent is able to get a shot off? Mind boggling stuff.
 
caid said:
Saliba is in the top 5 for making tackles. So is araujo and barca aren't exactly wasteful with possession. So im not sure that tracks. Presumably you want to make tackles and win the ball back high up the pitch and early. Giving away a foul isn't necessarily a bad thing?
I'm not sure that old Alonso quote about if you have to make a tackle you've screwed up applies anymore. The high press seems to contradict it
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I think that particular quote was a Maldini one, and even back then would have been obviously stupid if taken as literally as the people who use it to criticise players who are good at making tackles seem to.

Though Alonso did make a somewhat similar point:

I don't think tackling is a quality. It is a recurso, something you have to resort to, not a characteristic of your game. At Liverpool I used to read the matchday programme and you'd read an interview with a lad from the youth team. They'd ask: age, heroes, strong points, etc. He'd reply: 'Shooting and tackling'. I can't get into my head that football development would educate tackling as a quality, something to learn, to teach, a characteristic of your play. How can that be a way of seeing the game? I just don't understand football in those terms. Tackling is a [last] resort, and you will need it, but it isn't a quality to aspire to, a definition. It's hard to change because it's so rooted in the English football culture, but I don't understand it.
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You would think with his tackling prowess he would be a great fit as a 3rd CB in a formation with 3 center backs, or where the RB slots into CB like how Bayern did with Pavard under Nagelsmann. The issue though is that he's only good at tackling when it comes to defending, his positioning and marking can be really bad, which would make him a liability as a purely defensive RB/CB as well.
 
I find that quote by Alonso laughable. Tackling is a method of regaining possession, particularly if you're as good as AWB. Regaining possession is the whole point in football when you're not in possession.
Of course it's a quality.
 
zaafi said:
I find that quote by Alonso laughable. Tackling is a method of regaining possession, particularly if you're as good as AWB. Regaining possession is the whole point in football when you're not in possession.
Of course it's a quality.
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Its was prime Mourinho / Benitez shit on a stick period in football. Planting 8 players around your box, avoiding mistakes and chucking it forward to Drogba was the prime tactic. It makes more sense in that context.
 
Alonso didn't have to make much tackling at Liverpool, but he needed Mascherano to shine. That's kinda hypocritical of him.

And also he's more of DLP that still need protection (aka tackler) to compensate his lack of protecting defense ability.

He's not some sort of god level DM to take his words as gospel. I don't know why his words often quoted.
 
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Valencia Shin Crosses said:
People say shite like this but I'd love to know a single fullback that isn't "out of position" somewhat often. It's the nature of constantly marauding up and down the pitch, you aren't always going to be lockstep in line with your CB's unless you're purely told to sit deep as almost a third CB.
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I'm not talking about a RB being caught upfield by a counter. I'm talking about AWB often being a step behind the rest of our defensive line when we are in a defensive shape. That's unique to him.

Valencia Shin Crosses said:
People for years said Trent was the best right back in the world and he's essentially never "in position".
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I also don't think that bringing TAA up as a positive point of reference on a forum that has a thread titled "Trent can't defend" (25 pages before the lock) is a great way to stick up for AWB either!

Valencia Shin Crosses said:
AWB does lose his man at times on the back post and he's pretty terrible in the air which hurts at times, but this repeating of the cliche that "he only makes tackles because he's never in position" or "good defenders don't have to tackle" is so idiotic it makes my head hurt. Bottom line is there isn't another fullback in the world you'd want if facing a team with a top dribbling LW. That no doubt has value especially when we are a side that can't dominate possession currently. As we transition into a team that dominates the ball then sure he's not nearly as useful.
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I agree with this. Which is pretty much what I was saying. Dribbling at AWB is stupid, it's smart to use off the ball movement to try and get the better of him.
 
People clutch onto their preconceived views like their life depends on it. None willing to move an inch. It's funny to see but this is the world we live in.

Why question your own ideas when you can double down and argue it out ad infinitum?
 
afrocentricity said:
People clutch onto their preconceived views like their life depends on it. None willing to move an inch. It's funny to see but this is the world we live in.

Why question your own ideas when you can double down and argue it out ad infinitum?
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Exactly what I was going to say. The stats are being used to praise him / batter him depending on pov.

I think he's actually performed much better than expected, which is a credit to him.
 
Amar__ said:
Whether something is or isn't an anomally isn't exactly my point. It's the question if that stat or anomally is actually good stat?
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On an individual basis (which is what this stat alludes to) it is a phenomenal one.

On a team level maybe this is bad one as I would rather see AWB make less tackles and not have to be attacked by wingers so much.

But, I'm not taking anything away from Wan Bissaka. I hope he can keep this level up going forward. It is great to see a defender be so committed to the tackle and be extremely successful at it.
 
Some thoughts on the similarities drawn between DDG and AWB:

AWB is a solid defensive player. He may be disproportionately skilled in one area but unlike DDG who is very skilled in shot stopping but a complete dud in everything else, his wages aren’t through the roof.

Also outfield players can get away with being proficient in one area but as a first choice keeper in modern day football, you are part of the tactical foundation. Not a player you can use when necessary and bench.

I hope AWB stays for next season.
 
The issue is, if we move on Dalot (which would be my preference if any) he's unlikely to move to an English club so we'd end up fielding a bunch of low ball offers from European clubs. AWB would fetch more from PL clubs with far more cash to throw around.

If we end up being in the position of having to sell players to raise funds, then AWB could be the one to go simply through it being more financially beneficial to us.
 
BigBebe said:
Is there a stat for "Most time caught out of position and having to make a last-ditch tackle" ?
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Whilst his positioning isn’t the best, a lot of his tackles are because he is a proactive defender. A lot of defenders just jockey / stand up the winger. Wan-Bissaka always makes the tackle, be it last ditch or face on.

Furthermore, his ability on the ball has improved a lot, and his positioning and decision-making going forward is getting better (still room for improvement but it’s undoubtedly heading in the right direction).
 
Superden said:
Exactly what I was going to say. The stats are being used to praise him / batter him depending on pov.

I think he's actually performed much better than expected, which is a credit to him.
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Yup credit where it's due
 
I think he can keep on improving. However, i would sell Dalot and not him. There's a very good chance he becomes special given time, some of his specific abilities and his hard work. It reminds me a bit of Rashford and why I always thought he would be better than Martial. Workrate and core skills count for a lot. He's also not bad on the ball when dribbling and holding onto possession, he struggles when he has to think of the pass due to uncomfortable, but the framework is there for him to be a decent ball player if given time.
 
I'm surprised Ethan Pinnock is so high up there, never noticed how good a tackler he is but he must be. Perhaps his positioning isn't the best though because I don't remember him often standing out as dominant?
 
Spaghetti said:
Whilst his positioning isn’t the best, a lot of his tackles are because he is a proactive defender. A lot of defenders just jockey / stand up the winger. Wan-Bissaka always makes the tackle, be it last ditch or face on.

Furthermore, his ability on the ball has improved a lot, and his positioning and decision-making going forward is getting better (still room for improvement but it’s undoubtedly heading in the right direction).
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fair point
 
Bebestation said:
His goal line clearences are great for someone who isnt apparently aware
He hasnt let 1 back post goal this season but its a problem for people who dont rate him.
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Arsenal away it was his lack of awareness that caused Nketiah to score.
 
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