A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino

I do have a bit of an issue with him and his favourites. Foyth was definitely not the right choice in this game.

I’m not entirely sure if the dickish attitude by Dier, Alli and the likes, comes from him or that’s just their attitude alone.

Anyway, I think he should definitely look to go, come end of the season. He needs more backing than he’s going to get for the foreseeable future. I can only hope we can offer him that and he’d fancy it.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Where are United in the table? The richest club in league is effectively 9 points behind Spurs, despite having had an easier fixture list.

So the "much bigger fish to fry" amounts to scrapping it out with Watford, Brighton, Everton and Leicester City for 6th place …. so maybe time to put away the frying pan and instead think about minnows to lightly par-boil.
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They are around third when it comes to actual spending power, possibly second above Chelsea given Roman's dwindling interest. Your only hope is that every one of the numerous clubs with far greater resources than you get it spectacularly wrong. In fact that already did happen a couple of years ago and you still managed to finish behind Leicester.

United are terrible at the moment but the majority of fans here are very honest about that, you have your best team and manager in decades and you still finished below a bang average Utd team and are still not even a certainty for top 4.

Please don't mistake United's failings as any indicator of success for your team, it is a touch embarrassing.
 
AlecHDR said:
When did this weird thing happen where we now measure managers by their away record to the top 6? Anything you get in these games is a bonus really especially if you are like Spurs and your wage bill is dwarfed by the other clubs in the top 6.

I wouldn't fault Pochettino even if he lost every single away game to the top 6 (which is far from how it is).
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It's just some folk constantly shifting the goal posts to suit an agenda.

If Poch had a 100% away win-rate against the top 6, their focus would then switch a less good home record against the top 3.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
They are around third when it comes to actual spending power, possibly second above Chelsea given Roman's dwindling interest. Your only hope is that every one of the numerous clubs with far greater resources than you get it spectacularly wrong. In fact that already did happen a couple of years ago and you still managed to finish behind Leicester. ....
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You need to keep up with the changing times. The "numerous clubs with far greater resources" are not so far ahead as you seem to imagine. Our revenue was £381m up to June 30th of this year. After we move into our new stadium it will climb a lot further.

For comparison, as of 17 months ago Chelsea's annual income was £13m less and Liverpool's was £17m less.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Pure knee-jerkism on your part: Spurs lose a tough away game - the first game we've lost following 6 straight wins - and suddenly we've hit it our "upper ceiling. It's a flimsy assertion.
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The statement was not based on losing today. Win today and I would still hold the same thought. It is not a criticism of Spurs or Pochettino, just what I see as the reality of the situation. Financially, especially with the ongoing stadium issues they can not compete on the same footing as Utd, Chelsea and City. That is not a truth to celebrate, I want this Spurs team to win something to confirm their progress over this period but I don't see an avenue for them to compete for the title or in Europe. That year Leicester won was their great chance.

A cup is not beyond them, can beat anyone on their day.

This move to the new stadium was surely in part to raise that ceiling?
 
GlastonSpur said:
You need to keep up with the changing times. The "numerous clubs with far greater resources" are not so far ahead as you seem to imagine. Our revenue was £381m up to June 30th of this year. After we move into our new stadium it will climb a lot further.

For comparison, as of 17 months ago Chelsea's annual income was £13m less and Liverpool's was £17m less.
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You are over 200 Million a year behind Utd, behind Arsenal despite them not being in the Champions League, Liverpool ahead of you. Then Chelsea who have a sugar daddy and very possibly will soon have an even bigger one and City who's owners could buy your new stadium for an extra training ground if they wanted to.

To argue over the fact that you are below any of these clubs when it comes to stature or resources is beyond ridiculous, and before you say it your new stadium won't change this.

Answer this, do you feel Spurs will win the Premier League in the next 15 years?
 
OverratedOpinion said:
You are over 200 Million a year behind Utd, behind Arsenal despite them not being in the Champions League, Liverpool ahead of you. Then Chelsea who have a sugar daddy and very possibly will soon have an even bigger one and City who's owners could buy your new stadium for an extra training ground if they wanted to.

To argue over the fact that you are below any of these clubs when it comes to stature or resources is beyond ridiculous, and before you say it your new stadium won't change this.

Answer this, do you feel Spurs will win the Premier League in the next 15 years?
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Did you even read my post?

You cite Liverpool and Chelsea (for example), but, pending more recent financial statements from those clubs, our last reported annual income exceeded theirs … and that's before we even move into our new stadium.

Your claim of "numerous clubs with far greater resources" doesn't stand up to scrutiny … because you are living in the past.

In a year from now, there will likely be just two Prem clubs with a significantly higher annual income compared to Spurs, with Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool having an annual income roughly the same, or in one or two cases perhaps a bit lower.

You can argue that Chelsea's sugar daddy will continue to pump in extra money, but the signs are that he's losing interest … hence their new stadium plans being put on hold. Or you can argue that they'll get another sugar daddy to replace him, but best wait until if and when that actually happens.

As for the league title, we will have as much chance as any club bar City over the next 15 years.​
 
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I'm constantly amazed at Spurs fans ability to brush any negative under the carpet.

Conceding 4 goals to Arsenal is embarrassing which ever way you cut it.
 
Smores said:
I'm constantly amazed at Spurs fans ability to brush any negative under the carpet.

Conceding 4 goals to Arsenal is embarrassing which ever way you cut it.
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Which Spurs fans have done that? We lost and deserved to lose.

But the bigger picture is that we're still well on course for a top 4 finish when you look at general game-difficulty of our remaining fixtures.
 
Why did he not play Toby today? Vertonghen just came back from injury and had a terrible game.
 
I still rate him as the 2nd best manager in the league. I'd love him here.

I don't rate his squad at all. He only has one class player in Kane. The rest range from average to alright.
 
Smores said:
I'm constantly amazed at Spurs fans ability to brush any negative under the carpet.

Conceding 4 goals to Arsenal is embarrassing which ever way you cut it.
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We were shite. Our big game record away from home is terrible and the biggest problem at the club .. we consistently don't show up. We lost this fixture 2-0 last season too.

Not much to be said though, it's been an issue since Poch took over and I expect it will be continue to be.
 
Yagami said:
I still rate him as the 2nd best manager in the league. I'd love him here.

I don't rate his squad at all. He only has one class player in Kane. The rest range from average to alright.
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In what world are the likes of Eriksen, Alli, Vertonghen, Son etc average to alright? They're consistently some of the best performers in the league.

We have a good squad. It needs more investment (I'd still love us to splash out on a big CM buy who can really step up in the bigger games, and a rb to replace Aurier) but we have plenty of very good players other than Kane.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
In what world are the likes of Eriksen, Alli, Vertonghen, Son etc average to alright? They're consistently some of the best performers in the league.

We have a good squad. It needs more investment (I'd still love us to splash out on a big CM buy who can really step up in the bigger games, and a rb to replace Aurier) but we have plenty of very good players other than Kane.
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Said it before but I don't rate any of them that highly. A younger Vertonghen was very good, though. Poch, imo, is doing wonders with this squad.
 
Yagami said:
I still rate him as the 2nd best manager in the league. I'd love him here.

I don't rate his squad at all. He only has one class player in Kane. The rest range from average to alright.
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Eriksen is one of the best centre-mids in the league.
 
GlastonSpur said:
It's just some folk constantly shifting the goal posts to suit an agenda.

If Poch had a 100% away win-rate against the top 6, their focus would then switch a less good home record against the top 3.
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His away record against top sides is astonishingly shit, you can't simply disregard that tho.
 
Random Task said:
To each their own.
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Yeah! For what it's worth, I'm not stating my opinion as fact. I've been wrong about players plenty of times before, but Eriksen has always given me a Mata vibe which is why back in 2014 I wasn't a fan of signing him either. Still, I guess he was worth it for Juanfield :D
 
Yagami said:
Yeah! For what it's worth, I'm not stating my opinion as fact. I've been wrong about players plenty of times before, but Eriksen has always given me a Mata vibe which is why back in 2014 I wasn't a fan of signing him either. Still, I guess he was worth it for Juanfield :D
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Eriksen is nothing like Mata, aside from the obvious like set piece ability/position.

Eriksen is far more involved in general play and gets stuck in. He's at the centre of everything we do well.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
Eriksen is nothing like Mata, aside from the obvious like set piece ability/position.

Eriksen is far more involved in general play and gets stuck in. He's at the centre of everything we do well.
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You see, like Mata, I find his general play very underwhelming. Same problem I had with Mkhi, too. These three, outside of their impressive stats, have never really impressed me.
 
Enigma_87 said:
His away record against top sides is astonishingly shit, you can't simply disregard that tho.
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It is, though I'm not sure just how much worse it is than the rest of the top 6.

It's a problem for sure, I don't go in to any big away games confident of coming away with anything. There's a definite mentality issue that we need to fix.
 
Yagami said:
You see, like Mata, I find his general play very underwhelming. Same problem I had with Mkhi, too. These three, outside of their impressive stats, have never really impressed me.
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I find that bizarre. Our performances with/without Eriksen are totally different, any Spurs fan will tell you he is the heartbeat of our creative play. He also works incredibly hard and isn't scared of a physical game. Someone who was wouldn't be so key to a Poch side.

The likes of Mkhi and Mata are peripheral players who excel in key moments, Eriksen does that but a whole lot more. He's our 2nd most important player after Kane and totally irreplaceable.
 
The Eriksen you're describing I'd say was the one pre Pochettino.

He's a much more mature, complete player now.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
I find that bizarre. Our performances with/without Eriksen are totally different, any Spurs fan will tell you he is the heartbeat of our creative play. He also works incredibly hard and isn't scared of a physical game. Someone who was wouldn't be so key to a Poch side.

The likes of Mkhi and Mata are peripheral players who excel in key moments, Eriksen does that but a whole lot more. He's our 2nd most important player after Kane and totally irreplaceable.
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He is definitely a key player for Spurs - I'd never argue otherwise. I also agree that he's better than Mkhi and Mata. It's just, outside of his stats, I've never been impressed by him. I felt the same about the aforementioned players before we eventually signed them, too, and they were a lot better for their previous clubs than they were for us (and Arsenal now).
 
Santoryo said:
Look at people now pretending that he's an average manager or all those other clichés about succumbing under pressure for big clubs etc when Spurs lost away to another top 6 team.

He had a bad result against a top team away which souldn't mean nor take anything away about his credential about the calibre of manager he is. He is a top manager that should definitely be an option to look at when thinking about a new manager at United.
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Imagine Jose losing in a same manner against Liverpool away at Anfield... You won't hear the end of "He is past it" quote on here. Pochettino is actually having it easy on Redcafe.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
It is, though I'm not sure just how much worse it is than the rest of the top 6.

It's a problem for sure, I don't go in to any big away games confident of coming away with anything. There's a definite mentality issue that we need to fix.
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I just ran some numbers because my impression was that it is an unfair stick to beat him with. Generally speaking, top 6 teams don't do amazing away to other top teams. Taking the 10 seasons from 2008-2009 to 2017-2018, top 6 teams averaged 0.99 points per game away to other top 6 teams. Tottenham, over the same period, averaged 0.72. That means that on average a top 6 team should expect around 5 points from 5 away games whereas Tottenham would expect ~3.6 points.

Pochettino, since joining Tottenham, averages 0.65 which is on the low side and translates to ~3.25 from five away games.

Interestingly, Tottenham pre-pochettino average 0.766 points per away game to a top 6 team.

So yes, he is worse than previous Tottenham managers on this particular measure but not THAT much worse considering there is only 5 games in the season (meaning he would get between 1 and 2 points less than the previous Spurs managers over 2 seasons from these games)
I am sure there is anomalies (some managers were much better than average for example) and I didn't check if there is a trend overall of average points from these types of games over time dropping (i.e. these types of games getting harder).
 
Funny thing is for all the bravadoes and the praise spurs could very well end up behind us (probably not likely) and everton point wise at the end of the season.

City arsenal liverpool chelsea will finish top 4. Us aside spurs are below par.
 
Sky1981 said:
Funny thing is for all the bravadoes and the praise spurs could very well end up behind us (probably not likely) and everton point wise at the end of the season.

City arsenal liverpool chelsea will finish top 4. Us aside spurs are below par.
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Spurs have the best away record in the league for goodness sake. One bad result after winning 6 in a row. One bad result away against a top 6 side, when Spurs played Chelsea and then a very very tough game against Inter Milan, won both. Come up against a rampant Arsenal side who rested their entire first team midweek in preparation for this game. Arsenal's energy levels were miles above Spurs.

I mean come on now!! Spurs had a bad day at the office, it happens. Spurs will be challenging for 3rd - 5th this season but I am still very positive that Spurs are better than both Chelsea and Arsenal and it will be proven over a 38 game season.

Arsenal deserved to win but they needed a fluky 3rd goal to break Spurs willpower. How much luck can you ask for, that deflection was just ridiculous.
 
Sky1981 said:
Funny thing is for all the bravadoes and the praise spurs could very well end up behind us (probably not likely) and everton point wise at the end of the season.

City arsenal liverpool chelsea will finish top 4. Us aside spurs are below par.
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If we finish behind Everton I'll buy an Arsenal kit.

We're right in the mix for top 4 and that's basically what you can expect from us. I think it's 50/50 between us and Arsenal on who gets 4th. Think Chelsea could get dragged in to that fight too.

The only two sides we're clearly behind are Liverpool and City. But that's to be expected, they both have world class managers who have spent hundreds of millions on players. We won't get near them without significant investment like Liverpool with Alisson/VVD.

Poch is great, but he's not superhuman, just a fantastic coach. But so are Emery, Sarri, Guardiola, Klopp etc. And they all have more money to spend on transfers and wages to attract better players.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Because we lost a tough away game after winning the last 6 in a row? Do me a favour.
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No. Because you signed no one this last window, whilst every single club brought in new players.

You think that you didn't need to sign a single new player to flesh out or improve the squad? Do me a favour.
 
Primativ said:
Spurs have the best away record in the league for goodness sake. One bad result after winning 6 in a row. One bad result away against a top 6 side, when Spurs played Chelsea and then a very very tough game against Inter Milan, won both. Come up against a rampant Arsenal side who rested their entire first team midweek in preparation for this game. Arsenal's energy levels were miles above Spurs.

I mean come on now!! Spurs had a bad day at the office, it happens. Spurs will be challenging for 3rd - 5th this season but I am still very positive that Spurs are better than both Chelsea and Arsenal and it will be proven over a 38 game season.

Arsenal deserved to win but they needed a fluky 3rd goal to break Spurs willpower. How much luck can you ask for, that deflection was just ridiculous.
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We're pretty crap away from home vs the top 6 tbf, but overall I agree that there should be no big overreaction to this. It's a tough game and we didn't get the breaks.

Also do believe we have enough to scrape top 4 .. but how long are we content with this? When do we try and push on a bit, win a trophy maybe?

I'm tired of every season just aiming to be in the top four. Maybe that's me being spoiled but Christ, at some point we need to think bigger. Inevitably if you're always just happy with top 4 clubs with more ambition will overtake you and the competition looks fierce ATM.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
If we finish behind Everton I'll buy an Arsenal kit.

We're right in the mix for top 4 and that's basically what you can expect from us. I think it's 50/50 between us and Arsenal on who gets 4th. Think Chelsea could get dragged in to that fight too.

The only two sides we're clearly behind are Liverpool and City. But that's to be expected, they both have world class managers who have spent hundreds of millions on players. We won't get near them without significant investment like Liverpool with Alisson/VVD.

Poch is great, but he's not superhuman, just a fantastic coach. But so are Emery, Sarri, Guardiola, Klopp etc. And they all have more money to spend on transfers and wages to attract better players.
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I don't think Liverpool are that much better at all. Everything is going for them so far this season, just look at today's game, the luck they get to score that winner in the 96th minute. Story of their season so far. They've had great luck with injuries. VVD gets injured and they would be screwed.

I think when you compare the injuries Spurs have had to contend with, it's not a level playing field. We are still playing at Wembley whilst they have home advantage at Anfield. Really really fine margins at the top of the table, they've just been a little bit luckier and more consistent results wise, but Spurs are not "clearly behind" Liverpool. I just don't buy that.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
We're pretty crap away from home vs the top 6 tbf, but overall I agree that there should be no big overreaction to this. It's a tough game and we didn't get the breaks.

Also do believe we have enough to scrape top 4 .. but how long are we content with this? When do we try and push on a bit, win a trophy maybe?

I'm tired of every season just aiming to be in the top four. Maybe that's me being spoiled but Christ, at some point we need to think bigger. Inevitably if you're always just happy with top 4 clubs with more ambition will overtake you and the competition looks fierce ATM.
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We need to get into the new stadium, and I'd then expect to see a real title push. Poch also talks about this too. Now whether or not Levy backs Poch with funds I really have severe doubts but I feel Poch thinks he can have a go with this squad and a couple of good signings. Ultimately though I think we are treading water until we get into the new stadium. I still think we are favourites for 3rd. We are better than both Chelsea and Arsenal. I'd have said 2nd before today but with the luck Liverpool seem to be getting, it's a big ask.
 
Primativ said:
I don't think Liverpool are that much better at all. Everything is going for them so far this season, just look at today's game, the luck they get to score that winner in the 96th minute. Story of their season so far. They've had great luck with injuries. VVD gets injured and they would be screwed.

I think when you compare the injuries Spurs have had to contend with, it's not a level playing field. We are still playing at Wembley whilst they have home advantage at Anfield. Really really fine margins at the top of the table, they've just been a little bit luckier and more consistent results wise, but Spurs are not "clearly behind" Liverpool. I just don't buy that.
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I think it's easy to blame luck. Right now it looks to me they have a clear edge, there's no huge gap but I expect we will be comfortably behind them on points. They've already beaten us at Wembley this season.

Maybe clearly behind is too much, but I'm seeing a gap start to emerge. They weren't far behind us last season and then went out and invested heavily. Having VVD all season and Alisson will win them a good number of points .. we added nothing.

I don't think either us or Liverpool have been too impressive performances wise. I do feel like they have more solidity about them than we do, they seem to win matches more comfortably.
 
Primativ said:
We need to get into the new stadium, and I'd then expect to see a real title push. Poch also talks about this too. Now whether or not Levy backs Poch with funds I really have severe doubts but I feel Poch thinks he can have a go with this squad and a couple of good signings. Ultimately though I think we are treading water until we get into the new stadium. I still think we are favourites for 3rd. We are better than both Chelsea and Arsenal. I'd have said 2nd before today but with the luck Liverpool seem to be getting, it's a big ask.
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3rd is a solid aim, Christ I would love a trophy though.
 
Sky1981 said:
Funny thing is for all the bravadoes and the praise spurs could very well end up behind us (probably not likely) and everton point wise at the end of the season.

City arsenal liverpool chelsea will finish top 4. Us aside spurs are below par.
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You are basing this on what exactly? We are 8 points ahead of Everton and only 1 point behind Chelsea and Arsenal. Chelsea also need to play Man City while we have played the top 6 once already.

People keep pretending the top 4 is decided after every round... Before the Arsenal game people said spurs were nailed on for 3rd. Right now, there's a group of 1+1+3 imo. City ahead with Liverpool behind, and then Arsenal, Chelsea and Spurs who look to battle for the last 2 CL spots.

Personally I still have us favourites for 3rd, but it will be a tough battle with Arsenal and Chelsea.
 
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