A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino

spiriticon said:
You make it sound like you can't have a blip season in the rebuild process, that all managers always have an upwards trend of improvement without fail.

It doesn't work like that. Shit does happen.
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Go on then, name me a PL manager who had a "blip" season in their second season i.e. performed way worse than their first season, and went on to be really successful.
 
Shamana said:
Fergie had a really good 2nd season.
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No he didn't, he finished 12th and then 13th in the 3rd season before things picked up again

Either way, what I'm saying is that shit does happen and you have to make allowances for it.
 
NWRed said:
He's made a good start on that but was left high and dry by Woodward and Judge in the summer, that combined with the injuries we've had this year have contributed to some poor performances.
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Yes he had a good start, but the other part is just bullshit.

With our material, even with injuries, we should beat teams like Watford, Bournemoth, Palace etc.

Some players have developed on a individula level, but overall we are playing shit football with even shittier results. This is like our worst season in decades.

If/when Ole is fired he will never manage a top club again. I would even be surprised if he got a job in a top 5 league in Europe.

I love Ole and his personality and he has done a good job getting rid of some deadwood, but he is not a good manager. No way around it.
 
spiriticon said:
No he didn't, he finished 12th and then 13th in the 3rd season before things picked up again

Either way, what I'm saying is that shit does happen and you have to make allowances for it.
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No he finished 2nd in his 2nd season. Look it up.
 
spiriticon said:
Ok 3rd season then whatever. Either way his performances went down before going back up.
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Anyway i agree with your sentiment. My position is that Poch is an ugrade on Ole, but we are not winning the league while Klopp and Pep are here unless we are bought by the saudi's.
 
With all these rumours flying about I wonder how Ole feels. Will the press bring it up at our next conference?
 
balaks said:
It isn't. People get that impression thank to poor coaches we keep on hiring. Obviously we need improvements in key positions like RW, CM but overall we have few good players and some very good players.

De Gea/Henderson - Been poor for several years
AWB - not an attacking wing-back which is what Poch likes
Maguire - decent
Fred - decent
McTominay - decent
Pogba - god knows - if he is an issue behind the scenes I reckon he will be gone
Bruno - could be good
Matic - old and past it
Rashford - excellent
Sanchez - old and past it
James - ok squad player
Greenwood - potentially good

is a good foundation to build on.



It's ok but not great and I think there are big question marks on several of those players.
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There's as much to build on at United than there is at Spurs to be fair. If United are a mess then the same applies to your lot. If DDG is shit (he isn't) then Lloris is absolute garbage

I'd also say that Greenwood had proven he's good and not just "could be good" and Martial, who is missing from the list, is also in the decent bracket. You've also missed off Brandon Williams who is just below Greenwood in the development area but shown he's a worthy PL player. Tuanzebe would also feature in the could be good bracket.

Essentially it's a good young base and a big improvement on what we had 12-18 months ago. The squad is being trimmed, older players in on big contacts moved on and the best of our academy being integrated into the first team squad.

It's a perfect project to get behind if the club sort out matters behind the scenes.

Henderson
Tuanzebe
Williams
Wan Bissaka
Mctominay
James
Rashford
Greenwood
Martial

Great young foundation with a second tier of;

Maguire
Fernandes
Fred
Pogba

I've left other players out I'm not convinced of, like Lindelof, but yeah hardly as bad as made out.
 
TheReligion said:
There's as much to build on at United than there is at Spurs to be fair. If United are a mess then the same applies to your lot. If DDG is shit (he isn't) then Lloris is absolute garbage

I'd also say that Greenwood had proven he's good and not just "could be good" and Martial, who is missing from the list, is also in the decent bracket. You've also missed off Brandon Williams who is just below Greenwood in the development area but shown he's a worthy PL player. Tuanzebe would also feature in the could be good bracket.

Essentially it's a good young base and a big improvement on what we had 12-18 months ago. The squad is being trimmed, older players in on big contacts moved on and the best of our academy being integrated into the first team squad.

It's a perfect project to get behind if the club sort out matters behind the scenes.

Henderson
Tuanzebe
Williams
Wan Bissaka
Mctominay
James
Rashford
Greenwood
Martial

Great young foundation with a second tier of;

Maguire
Fernandes
Fred
Pogba

I've left other players out I'm not convinced of, like Lindelof, but yeah hardly as bad as made out.
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My club is in a mess too - 100% happy to admit that. Major rebuild is required.
 
Massive Spanner said:
That wasn't the PL and he wasn't actually worse, he was the same, or thereabouts.

Try again? A more.. modern example would be good.
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Actually he was well worse in his 3rd and 4th seasons but I would agree that Fergie is unique.

There are not many managers out there with a tenure long enough to for me to research but Sean Dyche at Burnley is a recent example. His results are up and down like a yo-yo but you can see they are generally moving towards the top end of the PL table.
 
Shamana said:
Anyway i agree with your sentiment. My position is that Poch is an ugrade on Ole, but we are not winning the league while Klopp and Pep are here unless we are bought by the saudi's.
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I think everyone thought no one would be challenging City for the title before Liverpool stepped it up and are now walking the league. The thing with having the right manager and making the right signings is that the team will improve and gain confidence from that improvement whilst a crisis for the favourite can knock their confidence. In 2018 if you were told that a club would go unbeaten in the League the smart money would have been on City but its Liverpool who won the CL and are having an invincible season. So Liverpool and Klopp might look untouchable right now but in fourteen months things could turn out to be so different, its best for us to be ready in case they slip up.
 
balaks said:
My club is in a mess too - 100% happy to admit that. Major rebuild is required.
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That's fair although I disagree United, especially the squad, is worse than it was 12 months ago. The steady improvement in personnel is clear along with the release of older players and those at a bit of a cross road in their careers.
 
spiriticon said:
Actually he was well worse in his 3rd and 4th seasons but I would agree that Fergie is unique.

There are not many managers out there with a tenure long enough to for me to research but Sean Dyche at Burnley is a recent example. His results are up and down like a yo-yo but you can see they are generally moving towards the top end of the PL table.
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Mm no that's not really true. He got them promoted, then relegated (easily happens), promoted straight away again, and they've been fairly consistent in the PL since. That's pretty much a steady improvement throughout. it's also not a very relevant example given he's a manager at a team who got promoted then relegated then promoted.

I think you see my point, though, there are no examples because it's not been done in the PL era. I think it's crazy to suggest a club like Man Utd should be the first to experiment in the hope that it does happen for us. It's pretty clear that if a manager at one of the bigger clubs isn't able to improve his team year on year then he's not going to be the right fit. By your logic we should've given LvG and Mourinho more time too even though it was clear in both their final season's they were completely past the point of no return.
 
AneRu said:
I think everyone thought no one would be challenging City for the title before Liverpool stepped it up and are now walking the league. The thing with having the right manager and making the right signings is that the team will improve and gain confidence from that improvement whilst a crisis for the favourite can knock their confidence. In 2018 if you were told that a club would go unbeaten in the League the smart money would have been on City but its Liverpool who won the CL and are having an invincible season. So Liverpool and Klopp might look untouchable right now but in fourteen months things could turn out to be so different, its best for us to be ready in case they slip up.
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Klopp is just in a different class. He has always been my favourite manager to suceed Saf. Poch is good but he is not as good as klopp.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Mm no that's not really true. He got them promoted, then relegated (easily happens), promoted straight away again, and they've been fairly consistent in the PL since. That's pretty much a steady improvement throughout. it's also not a very relevant example given he's a manager at a team who got promoted then relegated then promoted.

I think you see my point, though, there are no examples because it's not been done in the PL era. I think it's crazy to suggest a club like Man Utd should be the first to experiment in the hope that it does happen for us. It's pretty clear that if a manager at one of the bigger clubs isn't able to improve his team year on year then he's not going to be the right fit. By your logic we should've given LvG and Mourinho more time too even though it was clear in both their final season's they were completely past the point of no return.
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Actually if you look at his Premier league results only in his last 3 seasons, he finished 7th, then 15th, then is back up to 11th this season and is only 6 points of 6th place.

It doesn't happen often because people run out of patience then the sack happens.
 
spiriticon said:
Actually if you look at his Premier league results only in his last 3 seasons, he finished 7th, then 15th, then is back up to 11th this season and is only 6 points of 6th place.

It doesn't happen often because people run out of patience then the sack happens.
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Obviously if we had a manager who had already given us success in their first four or five seasons like Dyche did then I'd be for giving them more time to turn it around because they deserved it.

But my question was about a manager's first two/three seasons, you don't have any examples, that's fine, I think it generally proves my point.
 
TheReligion said:
Well if you're asking me will the club release the funds you must surely give me a figure so I can answer the question otherwise what's the point?
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Unless Poch can get value for money like klopp i would say a netspend of 400 mil over 2 seasons using Madrid as a comparison.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Obviously if we had a manager who had already given us success in their first four or five seasons like Dyche did then I'd be for giving them more time to turn it around because they deserved it.

But my question was about a manager's first two/three seasons, you don't have any examples, that's fine, I think it generally proves my point.
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He was yo-yoing as well but you ruled that out because it seems you don't think it's relevant that promotion/relegation results be included.

So I say look at the premier league results, now you say its not relevant because it's not the first 2/3 seasons.

Whatever.
 
Shamana said:
Klopp is just in a different class. He has always been my favourite manager to suceed Saf. Poch is good but he is not as good as klopp.
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In the same vein that Arsene Wenger wasn't as good as Sir Alex but Sir Alex did lose titles to Wenger in some seasons, my point is that even under Klopp they won't always be invincible and we just have to be good enough to be in a position to capitalize when they eventually slip up.
 
Shamana said:
Unless Poch can get value for money like klopp i would say a netspend of 400 mil over 2 seasons using Madrid as a comparison.
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Firstly I don't think United need to spend £400m net to be competitive. That figure is ridiculous as is the fact you're using a club famous for the galacticos era as comparison.

In your opinion how do you see that figure being needed? I'd say around half gross would be fine although there's bound to be more outgoings which would reduce this net figure.
 
spiriticon said:
He was yo-yoing as well but you ruled that out because it seems you don't think it's relevant that promotion/relegation results be included.

So I say look at the premier league results, now you say its not relevant because it's not the first 2/3 seasons.

Whatever.
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Right from my the start my question was about the first 2/3 seasons, because that's what your post was about too, not giving a manager enough time early on.

Massive Spanner said:
Go on then, name me a PL manager who had a "blip" season in their second season i.e. performed way worse than their first season, and went on to be really successful.
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The only examples you can give me are the best manager of all time and Sean Dyche in like his 5th and 6th season. Not great, is it?
 
NWRed said:
And what exactly has he done wrong?

He's completely revamping a poor overpaid squad of underachievers who can't play the way he wants and united should. He's made a good start on that but was left high and dry by Woodward and Judge in the summer, that combined with the injuries we've had this year have contributed to some poor performances. Despite this he's dramatically improved Rashford, Fred, Mata, Matic, McTominay and to a lesser extent Martial and he's made 3 possibly 4 quality signings too. He's also had an excellent record against the other top 6 teams. The only thing I can criticise him for is persisting with an out of form Lingard and poor Pereira over Gomes, who should have been given more game time, apart from that Ole is doing a good job.
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Goodness me
 
If we do switch managers I hope the rumors about our ambition in the summer transfer window doesn't change, many times a new manager feels obligied to give the existing team a chance before making drastic changes.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Right from my the start my question was about the first 2/3 seasons, because that's what your post was about too, not giving a manager enough time early on.


The only examples you can give me are the best manager of all time and Sean Dyche in like his 5th and 6th season. Not great, is it?
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Sean Dyche could have easily been sacked after relegation from the premier league, but yet he is here making progress.

Regardless of the inane exactment of the seasons, it is an example.

Fergie is Fergie, but I wonder what would have happened if he was sacked after his 4th season finishing 13th.
 
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